Davis/LLS/Irvine Forum

[readyfortheworld]

Realized I put this in the wrong thread

Hello! Just need a bit of help deciding between these 3 ))

Loyola (120K Scholarship)
UC Davis (100K Scholarship)
UC Irvine (in off waitlist so I assume no scholly)

Context: Planning for public interest law (most specifically poverty/civil rights). Housing is not an issue in Davis or LA (but maybe in Irvine). I have never been to Irvine or Davis (but plan to visit soon). I have no preference between NorCal and SoCal. I love them both for different reasons and would be absolutely thrilled to settle down in either of them.

Any insight would be appreciated!!

Also - I am not necessarily looking to retake. I appreciate the offers that are currently on the table and am happy to choose between them Just need a little help/opinions on what is on the table.

Thank you!

[AdieuCali]

Realized I put this in the wrong thread

Hello! Just need a bit of help deciding between these 3 ))

Loyola (120K Scholarship)
UC Davis (100K Scholarship)
UC Irvine (in off waitlist so I assume no scholly)

Context: Planning for public interest law (most specifically poverty/civil rights). Housing is not an issue in Davis or LA (but maybe in Irvine). I have never been to Irvine or Davis (but plan to visit soon). I have no preference between NorCal and SoCal. I love them both for different reasons and would be absolutely thrilled to settle down in either of them.

Any insight would be appreciated!!

Also - I am not necessarily looking to retake. I appreciate the offers that are currently on the table and am happy to choose between them Just need a little help/opinions on what is on the table.

Thank you!

Can you clarify what you mean by housing is not an issue? Are you living rent-free with family in Davis or LA? That will make a huge difference for your total COA.

For your goals UCD makes the most sense given its strong PI placement and the fact that it’s $70k cheaper than Loyola.

You've got some good options but your COA at Davis is still going to be $150k. Limiting yourself to LRAP salary ceilings over the next decade in California is going to be tough. Are you good practicing in Sacramento or other inland cities?

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/davi ... la/irvine/

[readyfortheworld]

Realized I put this in the wrong thread

Hello! Just need a bit of help deciding between these 3 ))

Loyola (120K Scholarship)
UC Davis (100K Scholarship)
UC Irvine (in off waitlist so I assume no scholly)

Context: Planning for public interest law (most specifically poverty/civil rights). Housing is not an issue in Davis or LA (but maybe in Irvine). I have never been to Irvine or Davis (but plan to visit soon). I have no preference between NorCal and SoCal. I love them both for different reasons and would be absolutely thrilled to settle down in either of them.

Any insight would be appreciated!!

Also - I am not necessarily looking to retake. I appreciate the offers that are currently on the table and am happy to choose between them Just need a little help/opinions on what is on the table.

Thank you!

Can you clarify what you mean by housing is not an issue? Are you living rent-free with family in Davis or LA? That will make a huge difference for your total COA.

For your goals UCD makes the most sense given its strong PI placement and the fact that it’s $70k cheaper than Loyola.

You've got some good options but your COA at Davis is still going to be $150k. Limiting yourself to LRAP salary ceilings over the next decade in California is going to be tough. Are you good practicing in Sacramento or other inland cities?

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/davi ... la/irvine/

Hello! Thank you for your response

Yes, I can clarify - Housing is not an issue in Davis because that is where my partner is. We have discussed that if I choose NorCal then I would move in with him (he currently works full time, lives alone, pays the bills, etc etc.). It would be a tight squeeze in the 1bed, but with just the two of us and a cat, it should be no issue. For LA, my Grandmother lives alone in mid-city (about 15 min or so from the Loyola campus), and has graciously offered her place for me to stay (she understands the financial burden). So, in those 2 cases, I would not be paying rent (thank god, honestly). Irvine, is another case since I have no family/connections there (unless I willingly make the commute from LA).

To be perfectly honest, I am not too gunhoe about tying myself to LRAP - it kind of is what I but I am definitely not counting on it. I worked a decent job and lived rent free after undergrad for several years before this cycle, so I’ve got quite a bit of savings as well, to hopefully helps offset some costs.

Lastly, I am more than okay with inland/Sacramento! I am from the Midwest (Michigan specifically) and grew up in Nashville, so I am all too accustomed to the smal town vibe. Beaches and large cities are great, but not necessary. It’s just a drive and 3 hours of traffic away lol.

[Wubbles]

What do you mean by poverty/civil rights work?

[AdieuCali]

If you're not paying rent, then your total COA for 3yrs will probably be ~$90k at UCD (assuming in-state tuition) which is a good outcome. https://law.ucdavis.edu/financial-aid/p ... dance.html
Even without rent and considering your scholarship, COA for LLS will be ~$225k. https://financialaid.lmu.edu/lawstudent ... ttendance/

As far as your career goals, none of the schools you've listed are going to get you into unicorn PI - ACLU, DOJ Civil Rights Division, National Non-Profit GC. TBF, those outcomes would be tough even from Berkeley. But assuming you're comfortable working in Legal Aid, Public Defender, or State Government in NorCal, I think UCD is the obvious right answer here.

[readyfortheworld]

What do you mean by poverty/civil rights work?

My goal is to work in civil rights law, with an emphasis on poverty. Ideally, I would be apart of a nonprofit legal advocacy organization that specializes in this sector. A really great example of the type of org I am looking at is the Southern Poverty Law Center in Alabama (https://www.splcenter.org/). They do excellent work, but I would obviously not be looking in that region.

[readyfortheworld]

If you're not paying rent, then your total COA for 3yrs will probably be ~$90k at UCD (assuming in-state tuition) which is a good outcome. https://law.ucdavis.edu/financial-aid/p ... dance.html
Even without rent and considering your scholarship, COA for LLS will be ~$225k. https://financialaid.lmu.edu/lawstudent ... ttendance/

As far as your career goals, none of the schools you've listed are going to get you into unicorn PI - ACLU, DOJ Civil Rights Division, National Non-Profit GC. TBF, those outcomes would be tough even from Berkeley. But assuming you're comfortable working in Legal Aid, Public Defender, or State Government in NorCal, I think UCD is the obvious right answer here.

Wow @LLS. I knew it was expensive, but jeez. According to these #s, that scholarship is just a drop in the bucket. I'm definitely leaning more towards Davis for the reasons you listed, on top of the fact that I just genuinely like the school (based on the interaction/research I've done thus far). I just don't want to have any lingering regret about choosing Davis over Irvine since Irvine is higher ranked and has a higher biglaw placement/employment rate. Is that difference worth 100K? My impression from the thread so far is no lol, and I think I agree.

[Wubbles]

Irvine isn't worth it if you don't want biglaw, but either way getting into an organization like SPLC is going to be an uphill battle anywhere and near impossible from Davis

[cavalier1138]

Irvine isn't worth it if you don't want biglaw, but either way getting into an organization like SPLC is going to be an uphill battle anywhere and near impossible from Davis

This.

Also, have you identified the SPLC-like groups in California that you'd want to work for?

[QContinuum]

If you're not paying rent, then your total COA for 3yrs will probably be ~$90k at UCD (assuming in-state tuition) which is a good outcome. https://law.ucdavis.edu/financial-aid/p ... dance.html
Even without rent and considering your scholarship, COA for LLS will be ~$225k. https://financialaid.lmu.edu/lawstudent ... ttendance/

As far as your career goals, none of the schools you've listed are going to get you into unicorn PI - ACLU, DOJ Civil Rights Division, National Non-Profit GC. TBF, those outcomes would be tough even from Berkeley. But assuming you're comfortable working in Legal Aid, Public Defender, or State Government in NorCal, I think UCD is the obvious right answer here.

That figure for Loyola is off, though, isn't it? I calced it out, and without room and board, COA is $213k at sticker. Subtract OP's $120k scholly and that works out to a total COA of $94k plus meal expenses.

Meanwhile Davis is $170k at sticker (excluding room and board), meaning OP's COA would be $70k plus meal expense. It's a $24k difference, which is still significant, but not anywhere near a yawning $135k difference.

To be clear, I'm not plumping Loyola over Davis. Davis is, on net, a stronger law school, IMO. Just wanted to correct the calcs. Speaking of Davis, though:

Yes, I can clarify - Housing is not an issue in Davis because that is where my partner is. We have discussed that if I choose NorCal then I would move in with him (he currently works full time, lives alone, pays the bills, etc etc.). It would be a tight squeeze in the 1bed, but with just the two of us and a cat, it should be no issue.

This is TLS, not Dear Prudence, so I don't want to veer too far off into relationship-advice territory. But I want to encourage OP to consider whether she'd be ready to move in with her SO absent law school. As a general rule, moving in together prematurely is unwise, and this may be particularly so when you add in the stress of 1L and consider that they'd be sharing a "tight" 1 BR (meaning no "private" space for either party to retreat to at home).

[AdieuCali]

That figure for Loyola is off, though, isn't it? I calced it out, and without room and board, COA is $213k at sticker. Subtract OP's $120k scholly and that works out to a total COA of $94k plus meal expenses.

Meanwhile Davis is $170k at sticker (excluding room and board), meaning OP's COA would be $70k plus meal expense. It's a $24k difference, which is still significant, but not anywhere near a yawning $135k difference.

You are correct, I took the total COA off the school website and then halved the room and board estimate to cover just meals. I must have subtracted $20k rather than $120k. My apologies, OP.

[readyfortheworld]

Irvine isn't worth it if you don't want biglaw, but either way getting into an organization like SPLC is going to be an uphill battle anywhere and near impossible from Davis

This.

Also, have you identified the SPLC-like groups in California that you'd want to work for?

Yes! I actually had the opportunity to work with a couple of non-profit orgs in the last couple of years (namely, the black workers center and SCOPE-LA). Obviously, I am not gunning for employment with these organizations as nothing is guaranteed, but this was more to answer the question of having identified similar orgs in California. I have also found a couple of labor and poverty center in Sacramento and the Bay that appeal to my interests. I realize something as big as SPLC would be ultra-competitive, especially coming out of a regional school, but I'm not necessarily looking for the large/prestigious center - just similar work

[readyfortheworld]

If you're not paying rent, then your total COA for 3yrs will probably be ~$90k at UCD (assuming in-state tuition) which is a good outcome. https://law.ucdavis.edu/financial-aid/p ... dance.html
Even without rent and considering your scholarship, COA for LLS will be ~$225k. https://financialaid.lmu.edu/lawstudent ... ttendance/

As far as your career goals, none of the schools you've listed are going to get you into unicorn PI - ACLU, DOJ Civil Rights Division, National Non-Profit GC. TBF, those outcomes would be tough even from Berkeley. But assuming you're comfortable working in Legal Aid, Public Defender, or State Government in NorCal, I think UCD is the obvious right answer here.

That figure for Loyola is off, though, isn't it? I calced it out, and without room and board, COA is $213k at sticker. Subtract OP's $120k scholly and that works out to a total COA of $94k plus meal expenses.

Meanwhile Davis is $170k at sticker (excluding room and board), meaning OP's COA would be $70k plus meal expense. It's a $24k difference, which is still significant, but not anywhere near a yawning $135k difference.

To be clear, I'm not plumping Loyola over Davis. Davis is, on net, a stronger law school, IMO. Just wanted to correct the calcs. Speaking of Davis, though:

Yes, I can clarify - Housing is not an issue in Davis because that is where my partner is. We have discussed that if I choose NorCal then I would move in with him (he currently works full time, lives alone, pays the bills, etc etc.). It would be a tight squeeze in the 1bed, but with just the two of us and a cat, it should be no issue.

This is TLS, not Dear Prudence, so I don't want to veer too far off into relationship-advice territory. But I want to encourage OP to consider whether she'd be ready to move in with her SO absent law school. As a general rule, moving in together prematurely is unwise, and this may be particularly so when you add in the stress of 1L and consider that they'd be sharing a "tight" 1 BR (meaning no "private" space for either party to retreat to at home).

I appreciate the COA clarification for LLS! I don't think it's going to push me any closer to LLS at this point, but it is good to have the full picture.

In terms of r/s: this would actually not be the first time we've lived together. We went long distance the past year due to school/family pulling us to different cities. We've been together going on 5 years, so moving in was always the next step, law school or not. Without getting into too personal details, I can assure you that the tight squeeze with the SO is not only something I look forward to (because the long distance really gets tiring), but also something that I'm all too used to lol (I spent the last 3-years of high school living out of a motel 6 with my mom and siblings). I realize that Law school is a whole other ballgame, but ultimately, I don't think its the size of the apartment and who I share it with that will make or break the experience (or we can hope lol).

[readyfortheworld]

That figure for Loyola is off, though, isn't it? I calced it out, and without room and board, COA is $213k at sticker. Subtract OP's $120k scholly and that works out to a total COA of $94k plus meal expenses.

Meanwhile Davis is $170k at sticker (excluding room and board), meaning OP's COA would be $70k plus meal expense. It's a $24k difference, which is still significant, but not anywhere near a yawning $135k difference.

You are correct, I took the total COA off the school website and then halved the room and board estimate to cover just meals. I must have subtracted $20k rather than $120k. My apologies, OP.

Absolutely no worries! I appreciate the help regardless

[readyfortheworld]

Irvine isn't worth it if you don't want biglaw, but either way getting into an organization like SPLC is going to be an uphill battle anywhere and near impossible from Davis

This is basically what I wanted to confirm. Irvine is a brilliant school, but also an expensive one. Just wanted to make sure I was not shooting myself in the foot by turning them down.

Side question: I know this is not related to me or my goals, but out of plain curiosity, would Irvine be worth it at sticker (at least over 100K at Davis) if one was interested in Biglaw?

[QContinuum]

Irvine isn't worth it if you don't want biglaw, but either way getting into an organization like SPLC is going to be an uphill battle anywhere and near impossible from Davis

This is basically what I wanted to confirm. Irvine is a brilliant school, but also an expensive one. Just wanted to make sure I was not shooting myself in the foot by turning them down.

Side question: I know this is not related to me or my goals, but out of plain curiosity, would Irvine be worth it at sticker (at least over 100K at Davis) if one was interested in Biglaw?

Irvine most recently had an effective BigLaw placement rate of 43%. That's on par with T20 schools like UT (44.3%), UCLA (40.5%), USC (44%) and WUSTL (49%), so it's a very good rate, but it still means the "average" student at Irvine, at the 50th percentile (with half the class above her and half the class below her, grades-wise) will not be landing BigLaw. You'd probably want to be roughly top third at Irvine to be confident of landing BigLaw. Personally, if I were gunning for BigLaw, I wouldn't pay sticker or anything close to sticker for less than a coin flip's chance (much less a one in three chance) at achieving my goals.

I think the schools worth sticker for a BigLaw aspirant are the T13 plus Vandy (67%) and Georgetown (59%). No other school assures the "average"/50th percentile student BigLaw.