GSU, Stetson or Howard? Forum

[gbullock19]

Just another random WWYD post. I need to make a decision within 7 days. Deposits are in for Stetson and GSU. Although I've been to DC many times, I haven't visited Howard so I'll be doing that on this coming Wed/Thurs..

OPTIONS:

1. 90k scholarship to Howard leaving only $3,600 per yr for tution. However, they believe they can negotiate up to full scholarship. Lots of prestige with this school as the highest ranked HBCU law school in the nation. Has alumni like Thurgood Marshall and lots of access to networks all over the country, including lure of DC. Ranked 106 in 2017

2. 105k ship to Stetson university, leaving 7k/yr owed for tuition, but they have on-campus dorms which I have secured space for (they are only $2,567 per semester). Law school is on the beach and they've been amazingly supportive. First law school in Florida, huge alumni network and great job stats. They recently moved from 3rd to 2nd tier. Ranked 103 in 2017, ranked 97 in 2018

3. $0 money to Georgia State in my city, though initially this was my 1st choice school. I completed undergrad there. Tuition is low at 17k per year but I'm hanging on because they are known for their health law program which is the area I want to focus on and I want to eventually practice in Atlanta. Ranked 56 in 2017, ranked 65 in 2018

I'm leaning toward Howard now, but I'm extremely concerned about the COA in DC. My other concern is that I was denied for the Grad PLUS loan so I'm looking at only borrowing $20,500 per year. With only 7k in savings & no parental support, things could be tight in either DC and especially Atlanta (if I stay in Atlanta, I may have to go part-time to allow for more time to work to make up the difference). It's worth noting that a government job is just as appealing to me as working at a small to mid-size firm that would allow me to stay in Atlanta.

**Please don't tell me I shouldn't go to a law school or wait another year (I did that last year) I know I want to pursue a law degree. I simply want your .opinion from one of three choices. Thanks! **

[cavalier1138]

Ok, without giving you the obvious advice that you apparently don't want to listen to: none of these schools are a good choice for you. I would say that the debt from Georgia State is manageable, but it sounds like you're going to have trouble taking out enough in loans to cover your COL. But Howard and Stetson are downright ridiculous decisions if your goal is to end up in Atlanta.

And I'm pretty sure this was mentioned in prior threads, but you're considering all the wrong data. Don't look at the relative USNWR rankings for regional schools. Don't look at their "specialty programs". Look at their job placement numbers.

So I won't tell you to retake or to not go to law school. But you can't expect someone to look at these choices and tell you that you're making a great decision.

[AJordan]

33% of GSU grads were not employed in full-time legal positions and the median salary of those employed who reported was $66,000. Your COA in loans seems to be somewhere around $100,000.
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gsu/jobs/

43.5% of Stetson grads were not employed in full-time legal positions and the median salary of those employed who reported is not listed. Your COA in loans seems to be somewhere around $50,000.
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/stetson/jobs/

52% of Howard grads were not employed in full-time legal positions and the median salary of those employed who reported is not listed. Your COA in loans seems to be somewhere around $100,000.
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/howard/jobs/

None of the choices are what I would call "good" but of the three options you listed I would think it's somewhat of a coin flip between GSU and Stetson depending on your debt aversion weighed against your desire to be in Georgia vs Florida.

[stego]

Why were you denied a Grad PLUS loan? Not sure if they take your potential schools into account when they make these decisions. If they do, that should tell you something.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Why were you denied a Grad PLUS loan? Not sure if they take your potential schools into account when they make these decisions. If they do, that should tell you something.

Pretty sure they don't, and it's more likely to be credit-related.

[cavalier1138]

Why were you denied a Grad PLUS loan? Not sure if they take your potential schools into account when they make these decisions. If they do, that should tell you something.

The only standards for Grad PLUS loans are based on the student (if the school was the problem, OP wouldn't have been eligible for Stafford loans). I think the term they use is an "adverse credit history" or something along those lines. But it's based on the OP's credit, which means that private loans are probably not an option.

ETA: scooped.

[magnum_law]

OP, to echo what was said above - please don't trick yourself into attending any of these schools because (a) Thurgood Marshall was an alum, (b) it was the first law school in Florida, or (c) the school has a "health law program."

None of these things matter in the slightest - especially to employers. Remember that you need to treat law school as an investment. No amount of money is worth only a 50% chance at landing a mediocre-at-best legal job.

You will be doing yourself a tremendous favor if you take it slow, study harder, and retake the LSAT until you score high enough for something much better. No need to go to a T14 - but GSU, UGA, or even Emory for free is totally attainable w/ some more work on the front end. Trust me, studying for the LSAT is much much easier than law school and hustling for years at some dead end job.

[gbullock19]

Why were you denied a Grad PLUS loan? Not sure if they take your potential schools into account when they make these decisions. If they do, that should tell you something.

Pretty sure they don't, and it's more likely to be credit-related.

Yes. It was credit-related. I studied for over a year for the LSAT and though I once PT'ed 161 and once 160 my final score was 157 on the last LSAT I took in February, up from 154 last June. I just want to move on with my life and go to law school. I was waitlisted for both UGA and Emory--but they are hardly an option because my UGPA was 3.04. I had some health issues which affected both my credit (medical bills) and my consistency with school since I worked throughout undergrad. Many, many people get jobs through GSU, Stetson and Howard because of the networks so even older attorneys have told me based on the reputation, Howard is the most viable choice. I think people underestimate the connections historically black colleges create. Stetson also has over 5,000 alumni and a big presence in Atlanta. I still want GSU though. It's not just the specialty issue. I know the school, I know the city and even the courses and clinics they offer center more around what I want to do.

[magnum_law]

If you are URM, a 165 will land you at almost any T20 (or lower w/ $$$) regardless of GPA. Also, your contention that Howard has good placement because old attorneys say so is not supported by the numbers. Those old guys came up and graduated in different times. Look at LST reports. Only 46% (!!!) of Howard graduates land full time legal jobs. What about the remaining 54%?

But whatever, I have nothing to gain by arguing with you about this stuff. Just trying to help.

[cavalier1138]

Yes. It was credit-related. I studied for over a year for the LSAT and though I once PT'ed 161 and once 160 my final score was 157 on the last LSAT I took in February, up from 154 last June. I just want to move on with my life and go to law school. I was waitlisted for both UGA and Emory--but they are hardly an option because my UGPA was 3.04. I had some health issues which affected both my credit (medical bills) and my consistency with school since I worked throughout undergrad. Many, many people get jobs through GSU, Stetson and Howard because of the networks so even older attorneys have told me based on the reputation, Howard is the most viable choice. I think people underestimate the connections historically black colleges create. Stetson also has over 5,000 alumni and a big presence in Atlanta. I still want GSU though. It's not just the specialty issue. I know the school, I know the city and even the courses and clinics they offer center more around what I want to do.

Again, I can't emphasize enough just how faulty your reasoning is. "Just wanting to move on with your life" is a bad reason to put yourself six figures in debt at any of these schools (or to go to Stetson at all). You can't listen to older attorneys about hiring, because when they entered the field, legal hiring was a totally different world. And you cannot base your choice of school around coursework and clinics.

Look at the data. You can talk about Stetson's "5,000 alumni in Atlanta", but almost 90% of the employed students last year remained in Florida. You can talk about all the "connections" that these schools will make for you, but they give you about a 50/50 chance at being a practicing attorney on graduation. And if you're in the lucky half of that group, you still won't be earning enough money to realistically pay down your debt.

But at this point, it seems like you just want someone to validate you. So go get 'em. Chase your dreams. Taste the rainbow. Just do it. For everything else, there's Mastercard.

[UVA2B]

I'm not exactly sure why you keep coming here for answers to questions when you know you won't get what you want and you're completely unresponsive to what others try to tell you and make clear to you. So if you're not willing to listen to the answers people give you about the questions you ask, you should probably just stop asking us and forge ahead on your own. You clearly know better than the rest of us. Good luck.

[gbullock19]

I'm not exactly sure why you keep coming here for answers to questions when you know you won't get what you want and you're completely unresponsive to what others try to tell you and make clear to you. So if you're not willing to listen to the answers people give you about the questions you ask, you should probably just stop asking us and forge ahead on your own. You clearly know better than the rest of us. Good luck.

Maybe you're right coming to TLS is fruitless. Everyone seems to think that going to a top 100 school is a waste of time without a full tuition scholarship. For me even making $65k doing something that is meaningful to me is worth it. I talk to attorneys -young and old- that say there's hope where ever you go depending on the effort you put into it. But que sera sera...last WWYD post for me

[cavalier1138]

For me even making $65k doing something that is meaningful to me is worth it.

Here's hoping that you make $65k out of school. And here's hoping that you win some kind of sweepstakes to pay off your debt.

[UVA2B]

I'm not exactly sure why you keep coming here for answers to questions when you know you won't get what you want and you're completely unresponsive to what others try to tell you and make clear to you. So if you're not willing to listen to the answers people give you about the questions you ask, you should probably just stop asking us and forge ahead on your own. You clearly know better than the rest of us. Good luck.

Maybe you're right coming to TLS is fruitless. Everyone seems to think that going to a top 100 school is a waste of time without a full tuition scholarship. For me even making $65k doing something that is meaningful to me is worth it. I talk to attorneys -young and old- that say there's hope where ever you go depending on the effort you put into it. But que sera sera...last WWYD post for me

Ugh, last attempt.

This isn't exactly a fair characterization of what people are trying to make clear to you, but it's perfectly in line with why you're beyond being helped. People are trying to make clear to you how risky the move you're about to make at 37 years old really is. Let's say you go to GSU at sticker. You don't have any other source of paying for it outside of loans, and you have pretty poor credit if you're getting denied loans. So you're going to be going into $100k+ debt. Based on their general placement power, and the generally low COL market of GA, you'd be incredibly lucky to be making $65k. If you're employed as an attorney, you're more likely looking at $40-45k. That amount can't pay off that debt with any reliability. So financially you really can't afford the most likely outcome when you graduate if you find a job as an attorney at all.

I acknowledge you could always go back to claims adjusting if that happens, but now you've literally wasted three years of your life, $100k+ debt, to be exactly where you were before going.

Explain to us why this isn't a financially improvident decision with any amount of clarity, and maybe we can understand you better. But as you've shown here, you're one of the more financially illiterate and reckless people to come here in quite some time. Your posts are littered with every reason to believe you're barreling toward putting yourself under the weight of carrying immense and growing nondischargeable debt, and given how cavalier you are about it, it'll be no one's fault but your own.

[Justtrying2help]

The problem is that you're assuming you'll make $65k doing something you love after graduation. There is a 50% chance of you being a waiter or a solo attorney after graduating from those schools. Howard is a decent school primarily because firms can attend their oci and get their black quota in one stop (I'm a black male law student who knows some Howard Law grads). There are no guarantees that you'll get any job in the first place unless you graduate top of your class. You'll have a sizable amount of debt which will likely make your life difficult at least initially. Only half of the graduates from those schools ever find employment in the legal field. Go to Howard if you must. The other schools are terrible under any circumstance. Also your gpa isn't too low. Mine was slightly higher and my last was 2-3 points higher and I got into the t-14 with a lot of money. You need to retake and reapply.

[Slippin' Jimmy]

Why were you denied a Grad PLUS loan? Not sure if they take your potential schools into account when they make these decisions. If they do, that should tell you something.

Pretty sure they don't, and it's more likely to be credit-related.

Yes. It was credit-related. I studied for over a year for the LSAT and though I once PT'ed 161 and once 160 my final score was 157 on the last LSAT I took in February, up from 154 last June. I just want to move on with my life and go to law school. I was waitlisted for both UGA and Emory--but they are hardly an option because my UGPA was 3.04. I had some health issues which affected both my credit (medical bills) and my consistency with school since I worked throughout undergrad. Many, many people get jobs through GSU, Stetson and Howard because of the networks so even older attorneys have told me based on the reputation, Howard is the most viable choice. I think people underestimate the connections historically black colleges create. Stetson also has over 5,000 alumni and a big presence in Atlanta. I still want GSU though. It's not just the specialty issue. I know the school, I know the city and even the courses and clinics they offer center more around what I want to do.

A very successful Lawyer that I trust and who is a Stetson Alum has told me multiple times not to go there under any circumstances. 20-30 years ago things were different and a JD from anywhere put you way ahead but its not like that anymore.

[CPAlawHopefu]

OP, I won't bore with you the same rhetoric telling you to retake because it looks like you've already made up your mind to attend LS this year. I will say though that none of the schools mentioned will give you the optimal outcome but you already knew that.

With that said...

I'd say Stetson is the best only because it's the cheapest for you. I crossed off GSU because you got no scholarship and Howard because DC has high COL. Even if you manage to negotiate your scholarship with Howard, DC COL is vastly higher than that of Florida's, so it will add to your financial burden.

Of the schools you've listed, Georgia State clearly has the best outcome and would be the best for you in terms of employment (65% chance of landing a JD-required job w/20% getting into BigLaw), but the amount of debt you will be carrying makes it a very unattractive choice. If your goal is BigLaw (which I assume isn't based on your post), then GSU would give you the best shot at it but it is a risky move. You have 80% chance of not getting a BigLaw, and the worst thing you can do to yourself is racking up six-figure debt in that situation.

Howard and Stetson are around the same-tier level. Both gives you about 50% chance of getting a job, period. This means you should strive to end up in upper 50% of your class to have a shot at a job. But you will end up with virtually no debt (compared to an average JD student) so it opens you up to more option that doesn't constrain you to a certain income requirement. It seems like you are open to pretty much any kind of job as long as it's a "lawyer job".

All in all, here's my take:

Stetson will get you the best outcome of the three choices IF you manage to find a decent job afterward (Long-term, Full-time, JD-required). All three schools will most likely get you the same type of job that pays you around the same salary (50k-65k), but Stetson gives you the most disposable income due to low debt and low COL.

Good luck.

[lavarman84]

Howard and Stetson are around the same-tier level. Both gives you about 50% chance of getting a job, period. This means you should strive to end up in upper 50% of your class to have a shot at a job. But you will end up with virtually no debt (compared to an average JD student) so it opens you up to more option that doesn't constrain you to a certain income requirement. It seems like you are open to pretty much any kind of job as long as it's a "lawyer job".

People are giving the OP the right advice, but the bold is both misleading and not true. If you were to say that both give you around a 50% chance of being a lawyer, that would be somewhat accurate (a slight underestimation for Stetson based on the data but accurate enough).

However, it is totally inaccurate to say that Stetson gives a person a 50% chance of getting a job. If you look at the data on the 2016 grads for Stetson, only 7% are shown to be unemployed. However, I recognize that's not really an accurate number. If you look at the breakdown, around 77% of Stetson's class are employed in long-term, full-time jobs in lawyer, JD-advantage, or other professional positions.

I'm not saying that should make a prospective student to Stetson feel good about the situation, but I am saying that is a significantly greater than 50% chance of landing a job. And that only counts long-term, full-time professional positions.

[Slippin' Jimmy]

Stetson will get you the best outcome of the three choices IF you manage to find a decent job afterward (Long-term, Full-time, JD-required). All three schools will most likely get you the same type of job that pays you around the same salary (50k-65k), but Stetson gives you the most disposable income due to low debt and low COL.

Getting a good paying legal job out of Stetson with no Florida ties is extremely difficult. I'm familiar with the Tampa legal market, OP will have a very tough time unless they are at the very top of their class, because they lack the ties that this market really wants to see AND they will be competing with FSU/UF students who monopolize the big/mid firm positions in the area.

[CPAlawHopefu]

Howard and Stetson are around the same-tier level. Both gives you about 50% chance of getting a job, period. This means you should strive to end up in upper 50% of your class to have a shot at a job. But you will end up with virtually no debt (compared to an average JD student) so it opens you up to more option that doesn't constrain you to a certain income requirement. It seems like you are open to pretty much any kind of job as long as it's a "lawyer job".

People are giving the OP the right advice, but the bold is both misleading and not true. If you were to say that both give you around a 50% chance of being a lawyer, that would be somewhat accurate (a slight underestimation for Stetson based on the data but accurate enough).

However, it is totally inaccurate to say that Stetson gives a person a 50% chance of getting a job. If you look at the data on the 2016 grads for Stetson, only 7% are shown to be unemployed. However, I recognize that's not really an accurate number. If you look at the breakdown, around 77% of Stetson's class are employed in long-term, full-time jobs in lawyer, JD-advantage, or other professional positions.

I'm not saying that should make a prospective student to Stetson feel good about the situation, but I am saying that is a significantly greater than 50% chance of landing a job. And that only counts long-term, full-time professional positions.

My bad, my wordings were confusing. The 50% figure is based on long-term, full-time, JD-required jobs. OP indicated that he wanted to be an attorney, so I ignored all non-lawyer jobs (JD-advantage is not a lawyer job).

[lavarman84]

Stetson will get you the best outcome of the three choices IF you manage to find a decent job afterward (Long-term, Full-time, JD-required). All three schools will most likely get you the same type of job that pays you around the same salary (50k-65k), but Stetson gives you the most disposable income due to low debt and low COL.

Getting a good paying legal job out of Stetson with no Florida ties is extremely difficult. I'm familiar with the Tampa legal market, OP will have a very tough time unless they are at the very top of their class, because they lack the ties that this market really wants to see AND they will be competing with FSU/UF students who monopolize the big/mid firm positions in the area.

Can confirm. The bigger firms tend to either hire fairly high ranked students at UF or FSU, or they hire students with Tampa ties from law schools ranked higher than those two (who also have good credentials). If you want to land with those firms at Stetson, you need to be top of the class.

Now, it doesn't seem like OP is intent on that. If OP does go to Stetson, OP needs to take every opportunity to network. That's an advantage that he/she has. Being in St. Pete will give Stetson students the opportunity to work at small to mid-sized firms during law school and network with the lawyers from those firms (or work with the government). But the employment stats also don't lie.

[UVA2B]

Stetson will get you the best outcome of the three choices IF you manage to find a decent job afterward (Long-term, Full-time, JD-required). All three schools will most likely get you the same type of job that pays you around the same salary (50k-65k), but Stetson gives you the most disposable income due to low debt and low COL.

Getting a good paying legal job out of Stetson with no Florida ties is extremely difficult. I'm familiar with the Tampa legal market, OP will have a very tough time unless they are at the very top of their class, because they lack the ties that this market really wants to see AND they will be competing with FSU/UF students who monopolize the big/mid firm positions in the area.

Can confirm. The bigger firms tend to either hire fairly high ranked students at UF or FSU, or they hire students with Tampa ties from law schools ranked higher than those two (who also have good credentials). If you want to land with those firms at Stetson, you need to be top of the class.

Now, it doesn't seem like OP is intent on that. If OP does go to Stetson, OP needs to take every opportunity to network. That's an advantage that he/she has. Being in St. Pete will give Stetson students the opportunity to work at small to mid-sized firms during law school and network with the lawyers from those firms (or work with the government). But the employment stats also don't lie.

This is all well and good, but the OP has separately stated they want to end up back in Atlanta following graduation, making the networking power more than a bit moot. They seem to have profound misunderstandings about the legal profession and how the legal hiring market goes from top to bottom, which is a central problem to the OP not listening to anyone telling them these aren't great options for becoming an attorney, and certainly aren't great options for becoming an attorney in Atlanta (and potentially globetrotting as an attorney carpetbagger or something?). Their best option for becoming an attorney in Atlanta will cost well in excess of $100k and still does very marginally at that.

Reading the entirety of their posting history should give anyone pause as to whether they will reasonably listen to advice on their options.

[lavarman84]

Well, OP needs to decide if he wants to practice in Atlanta or wants to practice in Tampa. If he does want to practice in Atlanta, he needs to decide if he can accept the cost of going to GSU.

[Slippin' Jimmy]

Stetson will get you the best outcome of the three choices IF you manage to find a decent job afterward (Long-term, Full-time, JD-required). All three schools will most likely get you the same type of job that pays you around the same salary (50k-65k), but Stetson gives you the most disposable income due to low debt and low COL.

Getting a good paying legal job out of Stetson with no Florida ties is extremely difficult. I'm familiar with the Tampa legal market, OP will have a very tough time unless they are at the very top of their class, because they lack the ties that this market really wants to see AND they will be competing with FSU/UF students who monopolize the big/mid firm positions in the area.

Now, it doesn't seem like OP is intent on that. If OP does go to Stetson, OP needs to take every opportunity to network. That's an advantage that he/she has. Being in St. Pete will give Stetson students the opportunity to work at small to mid-sized firms during law school and network with the lawyers from those firms (or work with the government). But the employment stats also don't lie.

He'll have a very tough time even with small firms, the top ones in Florida have been taking more and more from T20 schools and a lot of those small firms have waves of UF/FSU students (most of whom have lived in Florida their whole lives) trying to get in the door. Getting an Atlanta job will be even harder. Stetson should be completely off the table for OP, but what he should really do is retake and get a 165+.

[Ferrisjso]

Just another random WWYD post. I need to make a decision within 7 days. Deposits are in for Stetson and GSU. Although I've been to DC many times, I haven't visited Howard so I'll be doing that on this coming Wed/Thurs..

OPTIONS:

1. 90k scholarship to Howard leaving only $3,600 per yr for tution. However, they believe they can negotiate up to full scholarship. Lots of prestige with this school as the highest ranked HBCU law school in the nation. Has alumni like Thurgood Marshall and lots of access to networks all over the country, including lure of DC. Ranked 106 in 2017

2. 105k ship to Stetson university, leaving 7k/yr owed for tuition, but they have on-campus dorms which I have secured space for (they are only $2,567 per semester). Law school is on the beach and they've been amazingly supportive. First law school in Florida, huge alumni network and great job stats. They recently moved from 3rd to 2nd tier. Ranked 103 in 2017, ranked 97 in 2018

3. $0 money to Georgia State in my city, though initially this was my 1st choice school. I completed undergrad there. Tuition is low at 17k per year but I'm hanging on because they are known for their health law program which is the area I want to focus on and I want to eventually practice in Atlanta. Ranked 56 in 2017, ranked 65 in 2018

I'm leaning toward Howard now, but I'm extremely concerned about the COA in DC. My other concern is that I was denied for the Grad PLUS loan so I'm looking at only borrowing $20,500 per year. With only 7k in savings & no parental support, things could be tight in either DC and especially Atlanta (if I stay in Atlanta, I may have to go part-time to allow for more time to work to make up the difference). It's worth noting that a government job is just as appealing to me as working at a small to mid-size firm that would allow me to stay in Atlanta.

**Please don't tell me I shouldn't go to a law school or wait another year (I did that last year) I know I want to pursue a law degree. I simply want your .opinion from one of three choices. Thanks! **

Why don't you calculate your total law school COA(and then add 5k-10k or so to add due to the magical forces of interest and tuition inflation) and then see what the cheapest option is for the whole three years and by how much? Then ask yourself, is the cheapest option in a market you want to(or would be willing to) practice and more importantly live? Howard does provide T1 OCI's for the top 20% of the class or so but for the rest of the class employment prospects are probably considerably worse than for their Stetson and Georgia State counterparts. Also for Howard the reason you were denied the gradplus is because they think your Stafford will cover everything/almost everything. I am in a very similar boat, TTT with 3k in tuition or so and all I was given were the limit of Stafford loans. If you don't have to take out gradplus that's a good thing. Just find the cheapest housing you can and you might not even need to spend the whole thing.