Chicago v. Duke v. Northwestern Forum

[dasq5511]

-

[Mullens]

Yeah this is a situation where you should probably go to UChi. For your goals, it's worth the $30k difference.

[rpupkin]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

[dasq5511]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

I'm not completely opposed to the possibility of taking time off but I honestly just don't see the point when any alternative career open to me now is not something I want to be doing and I'd feel like I was just killing time until going to LS.

[rpupkin]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

I'm not completely opposed to the possibility of taking time off but I honestly just don't see the point when any alternative career open to me now is not something I want to be doing and I'd feel like I was just killing time until going to LS.

Understood, but I think there's value in "killing time" while working in some 9-5 office job for a couple of years. You'll mature in various ways. I've interviewed more than one KJD U Chicago job applicant who would have definitely benefited from some seasoning before going to law school.

Also, working a "normal" job means that you'll get to be an adult for a couple of years with some free time. You likely won't have that as a lawyer working at a firm; there's something to be said for not wasting your 20s.

Anyway, I get why you want to start your career now (and, for what it's worth, I found your OP well-reasoned and thoughtful), but I strongly suggest taking a couple of years off before law school. I'd suggest that even if there wasn't "retake the LSAT" upside, which there definitely is in your case.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

[UVA2B]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

I'm not completely opposed to the possibility of taking time off but I honestly just don't see the point when any alternative career open to me now is not something I want to be doing and I'd feel like I was just killing time until going to LS.

What are you basing your goals off of exactly? You admittedly have very refined goals for a KJD 0L, but what makes you think that's the career you want? Have you been doing moot court for several years as an UG? Do you have experience working/interning at places that do appellate work?

The reason people recommend taking time off is usually because it is a 0L trying to put off making a decision about the rest of their lives. That's not you. But you've convinced yourself that you want this very specific, highly sought after career, and barreling into that pursuit could lead to disappointment or failure very easily if you don't get it or don't like it when you do get it. Who you are at 21-22 and who you are at 24-25 with a few years removed from academia can be remarkably different, and that's kinda the whole point for you.

I'm not saying don't go to law school now as your options are solid, but think long and hard about why you want that career path, if you truly understand what that career path entails, and if taking a year or two off would help you better mature and make mature decisions about the career you presumably want to be in for the next 30 years.

[dasq5511]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

I'm not completely opposed to the possibility of taking time off but I honestly just don't see the point when any alternative career open to me now is not something I want to be doing and I'd feel like I was just killing time until going to LS.

What are you basing your goals off of exactly? You admittedly have very refined goals for a KJD 0L, but what makes you think that's the career you want? Have you been doing moot court for several years as an UG? Do you have experience working/interning at places that do appellate work?

The reason people recommend taking time off is usually because it is a 0L trying to put off making a decision about the rest of their lives. That's not you. But you've convinced yourself that you want this very specific, highly sought after career, and barreling into that pursuit could lead to disappointment or failure very easily if you don't get it or don't like it when you do get it. Who you are at 21-22 and who you are at 24-25 with a few years removed from academia can be remarkably different, and that's kinda the whole point for you.

I'm not saying don't go to law school now as your options are solid, but think long and hard about why you want that career path, if you truly understand what that career path entails, and if taking a year or two off would help you better mature and make mature decisions about the career you presumably want to be in for the next 30 years.

Admittedly, I don't have the years of experience that you reference to really be 100% sure. With that said, the reason I want to go to law school at all is that I really enjoy reading, writing, and analysis. I narrowed down my goals by speaking to a lot of practicing attorneys who are alums of my undergrad or connections through my parents (some of these are practicing appellate litigators and career clerks). The reason I want to do appellate lit is because I enjoy the research and writing that goes into producing briefs, the reason I'm okay with biglaw lit as an alternative is because I know that plenty of practices involve a lot of research and writing. Though I have a goal in mind, I am by no means 100% set and uncompromising on that and understand that this could change a lot over the next few years.

I totally understand that there is a high probability that I will not be able to practice in appellate lit and am totally okay with that because all I really want to do is apply the skills I enjoy. Thanks for your advice, much appreciated.

[dasq5511]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

I'm not completely opposed to the possibility of taking time off but I honestly just don't see the point when any alternative career open to me now is not something I want to be doing and I'd feel like I was just killing time until going to LS.

Understood, but I think there's value in "killing time" while working in some 9-5 office job for a couple of years. You'll mature in various ways. I've interviewed more than one KJD U Chicago job applicant who would have definitely benefited from some seasoning before going to law school.

Also, working a "normal" job means that you'll get to be an adult for a couple of years with some free time. You likely won't have that as a lawyer working at a firm; there's something to be said for not wasting your 20s.

Anyway, I get why you want to start your career now (and, for what it's worth, I found your OP well-reasoned and thoughtful), but I strongly suggest taking a couple of years off before law school. I'd suggest that even if there wasn't "retake the LSAT" upside, which there definitely is in your case.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

Thanks for the advice, I'll take that into account. In terms of the LSAT, I followed all the guides and tips on here and took like 30+ full PTs plus the 7sage course, PS Bibles, and LSAT Trainer. Since I scored within a few points of where I was practicing, I feel like there's a fair risk I'd score the same or worse.

[rpupkin]

Thanks for the advice, I'll take that into account. In terms of the LSAT, I followed all the guides and tips on here and took like 30+ full PTs plus the 7sage course, PS Bibles, and LSAT Trainer. Since I scored within a few points of where I was practicing, I feel like there's a fair risk I'd score the same or worse.

It's definitely possible that you'll score the same or worse if you retake, but I wouldn't call it a "risk" due to the fact that all the law schools (with the possible exceptions of YLS and SLS) care only about your highest score. Since you're not in HYS territory anyway, a retake is all upside for you.

[UVA2B]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

I'm not completely opposed to the possibility of taking time off but I honestly just don't see the point when any alternative career open to me now is not something I want to be doing and I'd feel like I was just killing time until going to LS.

What are you basing your goals off of exactly? You admittedly have very refined goals for a KJD 0L, but what makes you think that's the career you want? Have you been doing moot court for several years as an UG? Do you have experience working/interning at places that do appellate work?

The reason people recommend taking time off is usually because it is a 0L trying to put off making a decision about the rest of their lives. That's not you. But you've convinced yourself that you want this very specific, highly sought after career, and barreling into that pursuit could lead to disappointment or failure very easily if you don't get it or don't like it when you do get it. Who you are at 21-22 and who you are at 24-25 with a few years removed from academia can be remarkably different, and that's kinda the whole point for you.

I'm not saying don't go to law school now as your options are solid, but think long and hard about why you want that career path, if you truly understand what that career path entails, and if taking a year or two off would help you better mature and make mature decisions about the career you presumably want to be in for the next 30 years.

Admittedly, I don't have the years of experience that you reference to really be 100% sure. With that said, the reason I want to go to law school at all is that I really enjoy reading, writing, and analysis. I narrowed down my goals by speaking to a lot of practicing attorneys who are alums of my undergrad or connections through my parents (some of these are practicing appellate litigators and career clerks). The reason I want to do appellate lit is because I enjoy the research and writing that goes into producing briefs, the reason I'm okay with biglaw lit as an alternative is because I know that plenty of practices involve a lot of research and writing. Though I have a goal in mind, I am by no means 100% set and uncompromising on that and understand that this could change a lot over the next few years.

I totally understand that there is a high probability that I will not be able to practice in appellate lit and am totally okay with that because all I really want to do is apply the skills I enjoy. Thanks for your advice, much appreciated.

I'd still recommend taking a year or two to solidify your desire to go to law school since it's not going anywhere, but you have already demonstrated a level of maturity and understanding of the realities of your decision that I wish every prospective law student had. I personally wouldn't be comfortable with these levels of debt, but you're approaching this decision level-headed with a clear purpose. It's admirable, truly.

[dasq5511]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

I'm not completely opposed to the possibility of taking time off but I honestly just don't see the point when any alternative career open to me now is not something I want to be doing and I'd feel like I was just killing time until going to LS.

What are you basing your goals off of exactly? You admittedly have very refined goals for a KJD 0L, but what makes you think that's the career you want? Have you been doing moot court for several years as an UG? Do you have experience working/interning at places that do appellate work?

The reason people recommend taking time off is usually because it is a 0L trying to put off making a decision about the rest of their lives. That's not you. But you've convinced yourself that you want this very specific, highly sought after career, and barreling into that pursuit could lead to disappointment or failure very easily if you don't get it or don't like it when you do get it. Who you are at 21-22 and who you are at 24-25 with a few years removed from academia can be remarkably different, and that's kinda the whole point for you.

I'm not saying don't go to law school now as your options are solid, but think long and hard about why you want that career path, if you truly understand what that career path entails, and if taking a year or two off would help you better mature and make mature decisions about the career you presumably want to be in for the next 30 years.

Admittedly, I don't have the years of experience that you reference to really be 100% sure. With that said, the reason I want to go to law school at all is that I really enjoy reading, writing, and analysis. I narrowed down my goals by speaking to a lot of practicing attorneys who are alums of my undergrad or connections through my parents (some of these are practicing appellate litigators and career clerks). The reason I want to do appellate lit is because I enjoy the research and writing that goes into producing briefs, the reason I'm okay with biglaw lit as an alternative is because I know that plenty of practices involve a lot of research and writing. Though I have a goal in mind, I am by no means 100% set and uncompromising on that and understand that this could change a lot over the next few years.

I totally understand that there is a high probability that I will not be able to practice in appellate lit and am totally okay with that because all I really want to do is apply the skills I enjoy. Thanks for your advice, much appreciated.

I'd still recommend taking a year or two to solidify your desire to go to law school since it's not going anywhere, but you have already demonstrated a level of maturity and understanding of the realities of your decision that I wish every prospective law student had. I personally wouldn't be comfortable with these levels of debt, but you're approaching this decision level-headed with a clear purpose. It's admirable, truly.

Thanks for your kind words. I see your point but (and I'm not sure how relevant this is) I know that I'd be unhappy with the mindset of "wait a little and save some money/get older." Perhaps this is immaturity on my part, but when I don't have goals that are challenging me I get very bored and frustrated and tend to lose a lot of motivation. I know that law school is no walk in the park (my older sister is currently a 2L so I'm pretty familiar with what it involves) but I'm sure that it would challenge me and make me happier than killing time.

[lawlorbust]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

Normally, I'd tell you to lay off on people with actual career aspirations.

But this.

I'm going into law school hoping to do appellate litigation at a lit boutique or within a biglaw firm.

[dasq5511]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

Normally, I'd tell you to lay off on people with actual career aspirations.

But this.

I'm going into law school hoping to do appellate litigation at a lit boutique or within a biglaw firm.

Dude, if you read the whole post I'm not at all counting on that as the only career path that is acceptable. Is it not okay to have difficult goals? I clearly said biglaw lit is also okay with me (which is not a bad bet out of any of the schools)

[UVA2B]

Thanks for your kind words. I see your point but (and I'm not sure how relevant this is) I know that I'd be unhappy with the mindset of "wait a little and save some money/get older." Perhaps this is immaturity on my part, but when I don't have goals that are challenging me I get very bored and frustrated and tend to lose a lot of motivation. I know that law school is no walk in the park (my older sister is currently a 2L so I'm pretty familiar with what it involves) but I'm sure that it would challenge me and make me happier than killing time.

I appreciate that, and I think it is a bit short-sighted worrying about being bored or unchallenged by a job (I'm also assuming you haven't substantially looked into these opportunities and what kind of benefit they can provide, which could be unfair), but my recommendation beyond waiting is just to limit debt. None of your options are worth substantially more in long-term debt than the others. So in this case, I'd take Duke or NU, depending on which you prefer (and lesser if you prefer your best chances of employment being in NYC or Chicago). They both have the power to put you in the types of jobs you want, and personally I don't think UChicago is worth $30k more (aware that others would disagree considering you have some faint dreams of academia). Best of luck, and thank you for demonstrating serious thought and concern that you're truly making the best decision possible.

[lawlorbust]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

Normally, I'd tell you to lay off on people with actual career aspirations.

But this.

I'm going into law school hoping to do appellate litigation at a lit boutique or within a biglaw firm.

Dude, if you read the whole post I'm not at all counting on that as the only career path that is acceptable. Is it not okay to have difficult goals? I clearly said biglaw lit is also okay with me (which is not a bad bet out of any of the schools)

If you are "ok" with appellate work, and "ok" with generic biglaw lit, and "ok" with academia, you don't have a "clear goal in mind career-wise."

[dasq5511]

I am KJD but I have a very clear goal in mind career-wise.

That's the worst kind of KJD.

Retake, if for no other reason than to work for a year or two, enjoy life, and get some perspective before law school. Also, you could cut the debt levels you're looking at in half (or more) with just a couple of more points on the LSAT.

Normally, I'd tell you to lay off on people with actual career aspirations.

But this.

I'm going into law school hoping to do appellate litigation at a lit boutique or within a biglaw firm.

Dude, if you read the whole post I'm not at all counting on that as the only career path that is acceptable. Is it not okay to have difficult goals? I clearly said biglaw lit is also okay with me (which is not a bad bet out of any of the schools)

If you are "ok" with appellate work, and "ok" with generic biglaw lit, and "ok" with academia, you don't have a "clear goal in mind career-wise."

There is literally no reason to be so hostile about this, that is not what I said.

[rpupkin]

Thanks for your kind words. I see your point but (and I'm not sure how relevant this is) I know that I'd be unhappy with the mindset of "wait a little and save some money/get older." Perhaps this is immaturity on my part, but when I don't have goals that are challenging me I get very bored and frustrated and tend to lose a lot of motivation.

I don't want to harp on this too much, but living like an adult for a couple of years without "a lot of motivation" is part of the point of deferring law school.

Let me put it this way: in the real world, no one can tell--physically speaking--the difference between a 26-year old and a 28-year old. But folks can absolutely tell the difference between someone who lived a couple of years as a normal adult and someone who charged through life K-JD. People in the former category are generally more successful at law firms.

[dasq5511]

Thanks for your kind words. I see your point but (and I'm not sure how relevant this is) I know that I'd be unhappy with the mindset of "wait a little and save some money/get older." Perhaps this is immaturity on my part, but when I don't have goals that are challenging me I get very bored and frustrated and tend to lose a lot of motivation.

I don't want to harp on this too much, but living like an adult for a couple of years without "a lot of motivation" is part of the point of deferring law school.

Let me put it this way: in the real world, no one can tell--physically speaking--the difference between a 26-year old and a 28-year old. But folks can absolutely tell the difference between someone who lived a couple of years as a normal adult and someone who charged through life K-JD. People in the former category are generally more successful at law firms.

Could you expand a little on what the differences are and why you think the former are more successful?

[rpupkin]

Thanks for your kind words. I see your point but (and I'm not sure how relevant this is) I know that I'd be unhappy with the mindset of "wait a little and save some money/get older." Perhaps this is immaturity on my part, but when I don't have goals that are challenging me I get very bored and frustrated and tend to lose a lot of motivation.

I don't want to harp on this too much, but living like an adult for a couple of years without "a lot of motivation" is part of the point of deferring law school.

Let me put it this way: in the real world, no one can tell--physically speaking--the difference between a 26-year old and a 28-year old. But folks can absolutely tell the difference between someone who lived a couple of years as a normal adult and someone who charged through life K-JD. People in the former category are generally more successful at law firms.

Could you expand a little on what the differences are and why you think the former are more successful?

Primarily, the former have better people-management skills. And that's 50% of the game at any law firm. If you know how to handle partners and clients, you're miles ahead of anyone else.

To be clear, I don't mean "management" in the formal "I supervised four employees" sense. I mean learning how to manage adult interaction. I mean knowing when to make a joke and when not to make a joke. I mean knowing when to shut up. I mean knowing when to state an unpopular opinion. I mean knowing when (and how) to agree with someone--even though you think they're wrong--because it's in your long-term interest to do so. These are things you generally don't learn in school. If you learn some of these skills in another professional environment--even if it's a dead-end environment that doesn't motivate or inspire--you will be much better off.

In my opinion, a couple of years of aging is a small price to pay for the improved opportunities you will have as a lawyer.

[existentialcrisis]

Thanks for your kind words. I see your point but (and I'm not sure how relevant this is) I know that I'd be unhappy with the mindset of "wait a little and save some money/get older." Perhaps this is immaturity on my part, but when I don't have goals that are challenging me I get very bored and frustrated and tend to lose a lot of motivation.

I don't want to harp on this too much, but living like an adult for a couple of years without "a lot of motivation" is part of the point of deferring law school.

Let me put it this way: in the real world, no one can tell--physically speaking--the difference between a 26-year old and a 28-year old. But folks can absolutely tell the difference between someone who lived a couple of years as a normal adult and someone who charged through life K-JD. People in the former category are generally more successful at law firms.

Could you expand a little on what the differences are and why you think the former are more successful?

Primarily, the former have better people-management skills. And that's 50% of the game at any law firm. If you know how to handle partners and clients, you're miles ahead of anyone else.

To be clear, I don't mean "management" in the formal "I supervised four employees" sense. I mean learning how to manage adult interaction. I mean knowing when to make a joke and when not to make a joke. I mean knowing when to shut up. I mean knowing when to state an unpopular opinion. I mean knowing when (and how) to agree with someone--even though you think they're wrong--because it's in your long-term interest to do so. These are things you generally don't learn in school. If you learn some of these skills in another professional environment--even if it's a dead-end environment that doesn't motivate or inspire--you will be much better off.

As a K-JD, I will echo this. I actually think I have relatively good social skills in terms of socializing and making small talk or whatever(although I suppose most people would probably say that about themselves). But at least from my SA it seems like there's a very different set of interpersonal skills that go into a white collar job that I wasn't always great at (e.g. asking for feedback, getting clarification when an assignment is given to you in a rush without straightforward instructions, juggling multiple assignments). I think there's something super valuable about learning to navigate an office environment before starting law school, and in retrospect I very much wish I had taken some time off.

[dasq5511]

Anyone have thoughts on waiting a year and applying ED to Northwestern in hopes of getting the scholarship?

[goldenbear2020]

Anyone have thoughts on waiting a year and applying ED to Northwestern in hopes of getting the scholarship?

Seems like a low probability with a sub-median GPA.

[dasq5511]

Anyone have thoughts on waiting a year and applying ED to Northwestern in hopes of getting the scholarship?

Seems like a low probability with a sub-median GPA.

Looking at the results from this year and last year, tons of people got it with GPAs in the 3.5s and good LSATs

[guynourmin]

If you're up for sitting out a cycle or two, I would retake and not ED to NU.