NYU v. UM v. the other UM? Forum

[lerusskiy1991]

It's getting close to the deposit deadlines and I'd like some input. I'm pretty interested in having the chance to do big law or boutique firm work. I'd like to get into international corporate (I have a polisci/foreign language background) work if possible, so at least a good mid-size firm of some sort. I'd like clerking experience, and I've wanted to be a judge before in my life, so I'm definitely interested in keeping that door open. If I don't do well in those areas (or just hate corporate work and find it isn't for me), then I could see myself doing public interest work with international NGOs, or government work.

UM is giving me 15K/yr (45K), while NYU is giving me 25K/yr and 15k or 25 the the third yr, depending on summer earnings (65k/75k). I know the COL in NY is sky-high even if I buckle down with my spending habits (which I guess aren't that bad), and I could get a sweet living arrangement in Ann Arbor and would probably be more successful budgeting here vs. NYC. If I had to do public interest work, I guess the LRAP at NYU is a great deal, but UM's is pretty good as well.

I love Ann Arbor and am very familiar with it as I went to UM for undergrad. But I'd like to experience a different city for law school and would probably prefer the East Coast over the West just because I am more acquainted with it (fwiw,I also have 40K schollies at USC/UC Hastings). UMinnesota is giving me a full ride, as well as the local schools, and I have always been debt averse. I'm somewhat considering Minn and USC, but not really looking at Wayne State (full ride) or even Vanderbilt (95K) / Emory ( 120K) bc of their placement in the South.

I have no debt right now, and I have been working for a few years so I have some savings accrued. My family is near Ann Arbor, though I have some relatives and friends around the NYC area already.

I also got into NU, but I've yet to hear back on $ and frankly didn't get a great feel when I interviewed. The interviewer was cool but I got the vibe that everyone there was Corporate or Bust, and I am not too fond of that area of Chicago. But it's a great school for BigLaw/International work for sure.

Which would you take? Thanks!

[existentialcrisis]

Are you debt financing this?

Also your goals are all over the place. You say you want to do corporate first, but also that you want to clerk? What is the career path you're envisioning here?

[Lavitz]

You don't seem to want to work in Minnesota, NYU and Michigan look to be roughly equal cost, and although your goals seem unclear you have a preference for the East Coast. I'd take NYU.

[lerusskiy1991]

Besides my savings and the scholarships I mentioned, yes, I will be taking on debt to finance law school.

My goal is big law or at least corporate counsel. It's my understanding that clerkships in school look good for those employers, so I'd like to get one wherever I go or at least keep it a possibility.

Public interest isn't really a goal in mind due to the payback. I'm just acknowledging that if those opportunities are more appealing to me in many years' time, a school with a good LRAP would be helpful.

I don't have any particular reason to go to Minneapolis.

[Rigo]

What are your numbers? How is NYU giving you a higher scholly than Michigan? I'm curious what inputs led to this situation.
The debt sounds super high at both, so I don't really see the normal clear incentive reasoning Michigan here that is there in most other T6 v. T13 choosing threads. I'd negotiate with them for sure.

[Lavitz]

My goal is big law or at least corporate counsel. It's my understanding that clerkships in school look good for those employers, so I'd like to get one wherever I go or at least keep it a possibility.

I will just point out a few things. I don't know what you mean by "clerkships in school." When people discuss clerkships here, they refer to clerking for a judge for 1-2 years after having graduated law school. You would be interviewing with firms at the beginning of your 2L year before you line up a clerkship, let alone before you do one. You will then work for a firm during your 2L summer and you'll likely get an offer to return after graduation. If want to clerk first and you get a clerkship, they will most likely hold your offer open while you clerk. Of course, during / after your clerkship, you may also look for jobs with different employers than the one you spent 2L summer with. In that case (and down the road), a clerkship will "look good" to certain employers. But with that said, clerking is predominately helpful and looks good only if you're doing litigation, not corporate--whether in biglaw or in-house. Hence the confusion over why you'd say you want international corporate but also want to clerk.

[lerusskiy1991]

What are your numbers? How is NYU giving you a higher scholly than Michigan? I'm curious what inputs led to this situation.
The debt sounds super high at both, so I don't really see the normal clear incentive reasoning Michigan here that is there in most other T6 v. T13 choosing threads. I'd negotiate with them for sure.

A lot of weird inputs. I'm a splitter with a 3.92/165 and some WE, plus a good PS/DS, perhaps.

I plan on negotiating with UM, thanks for the tip. Would Minn be able to place me in NY if I perform very well, or provide other interesting opportunities to service the COA otherwise? I read that its grads have found work in 30 states since last year, but I am incredulous.

Lavitz,

Thank you for clarifying. I guess I was mostly discussing internships with federal judges which could help me land clerkships after law school, therein leading to potential judicial work.

[Rigo]

When you say sweet living arrangement in AA, does that mean you'll be able to live at home for free?

[lerusskiy1991]

When you say sweet living arrangement in AA, does that mean you'll be able to live at home for free?

No. But, rent would be at 600 for a 1BR and it would just be more convenient/less expensive to truck my stuff to NY. I have a pet (they are not allowed) and would prefer not to live at school, so I'd look to live with a roommate or 3 somewhere in NY.

[Rigo]

Can you give us what your debt total would be at the schools after 3 years (aka your costs if attendance)?

[lerusskiy1991]

Can you give us what your debt total would be at the schools after 3 years (aka your costs if attendance)?

UM would be probably ~150k (taking savings into account but not potential summer earnings)
NYU would be about ~195k (taking savings into account but not potential summer earnings)

[Rigo]

How open are you to retaking? That GPA is so good, so you can get a full ride with even just 4-5 more points. I know it's not what you want to hear, but at least seriously consider it (even if it's just a nothing to lose final crack at it in June).

[lerusskiy1991]

How open are you to retaking? That GPA is so good, so you can get a full ride with even just 4-5 more points. I know it's not what you want to hear, but at least seriously consider it (even if it's just a nothing to lose final crack at it in June).

Cannot retake. Yep, long story short, I wish I took the LSAT more seriously...so, yeah, I realize that is not the ideal situation and the debt is considerable at either school. However, given the earning potential with those degrees and the (ever tenuous...) assurance of LRAP, would either of those schools be worth it over a full ride at a regional school? I am not inclined to seek work in MN/WI, but I guess there are worse fates.

[Rigo]

Cannot retake. Yep, long story short, I wish I took the LSAT more seriously...so, yeah, I realize that is not the ideal situation and the debt is considerable at either school. However, given the earning potential with those degrees and the (ever tenuous...) assurance of LRAP, would either of those schools be worth it over a full ride at a regional school? I am not inclined to seek work in MN/WI, but I guess there are worse fates.

That stinks. Just wanted to ask and encourage a retake if you hadn't considered it. Ah well c'est la vie.
I wouldn't do UMinnesota. I would try to get more money out of Michigan using NYU to negoitate. Use the full cost of living allowance on their website and not the $600 rent to make the costs of attendance comparable in your email (apples to apples). Express that as a Michigander, Michigan is your first choice but you also have to consider NYU's generous offer. See what happens.

[lerusskiy1991]

Cannot retake. Yep, long story short, I wish I took the LSAT more seriously...so, yeah, I realize that is not the ideal situation and the debt is considerable at either school. However, given the earning potential with those degrees and the (ever tenuous...) assurance of LRAP, would either of those schools be worth it over a full ride at a regional school? I am not inclined to seek work in MN/WI, but I guess there are worse fates.

That stinks. Just wanted to ask and encourage a retake if you hadn't considered it. Ah well c'est la vie.
I wouldn't do UMinnesota. I would try to get more money out of Michigan using NYU to negoitate. Use the full cost of living allowance on their website and not the $600 rent to make the costs of attendance comparable in your email (apples to apples). Express that as a Michigander, Michigan is your first choice but you also have to consider NYU's generous offer. See what happens.

Thanks for suggesting I email, as I was going to call their FinAid office. I'll be sure to use the schools' COAs instead of my own calculations. Yes, that sounds like a good plan.

You don't think NYU is a significantly better opportunity than UM, or worth pursuing if UM doesn't give me more money?

[Rigo]

You don't think NYU is a significantly better opportunity than UM, or worth pursuing if UM doesn't give me more money?

Your goal just seems to be generic biglaw, so I'd personally go for the debt minimization. If Northwestern gives you a strong offer, I'd consider that too. They place really well into biglaw.
If public interest work was your priority, I'd say NYU but it seems like PI is moreso a loose possibility and a possible plan B for you. Michigan won't close doors should you decide to go the PI route, so it's not like you're really giving much up in choosing Michigan.
I'll let others chime in, but that's where I'm at right now. Michigan or Northwestern (assuming competitive offer).

[SUPERCHEF]

What are your numbers? How is NYU giving you a higher scholly than Michigan? I'm curious what inputs led to this situation.
The debt sounds super high at both, so I don't really see the normal clear incentive reasoning Michigan here that is there in most other T6 v. T13 choosing threads. I'd negotiate with them for sure.

FWIW, either 1) Michigan seriously low-balled OP (more likely) or 2) NYU seriously low-balled me (less likely). Same NYU scholly, but 100K+ at Michigan. Looks like you're leaving $$$ on the table at Michigan? They say they don't match/compete but I'd look into getting them to raise? Otherwise my vote is NYU.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Just one comment: judicial internships during law school are easy to get, and also not terribly likely to lead to a post-grad clerkship. And getting to be a judge down the road is really about totally different stuff - many judges clerked at one point, but plenty didn't. Getting to be a judge is much more about your post-grad career than where you go or clerking. So I really wouldn't worry about this side of things.

I also don't think you should go to MN.

[cavalier1138]

Cannot retake. Yep, long story short, I wish I took the LSAT more seriously...so, yeah, I realize that is not the ideal situation and the debt is considerable at either school. However, given the earning potential with those degrees and the (ever tenuous...) assurance of LRAP, would either of those schools be worth it over a full ride at a regional school? I am not inclined to seek work in MN/WI, but I guess there are worse fates.

You can't retake? Or you don't feel like waiting another cycle?

How many times have you taken the LSAT? Do you have any other factors contributing to your applications (URM, first-generation, etc.)?

And don't go to Minnesota.

[lerusskiy1991]

Thanks for the replies; much appreciated. Good to know about internships with judges; I thought they were somewhat elusive to the typical grad. I agree UM is shortchanging me a bit (I raised money for the school, c'mon!) and I emailed them today. They will get back to by the end of the week.

I have taken the LSAT three times, doing the same each time, and I am therefore unable to retake. I am (half) URM and wrote a diversity statement about that and early childhood on the East Coast. So, that probably helped a tad. I also applied late to schools (late jan/early feb) and heard back from NYU within 3 weeks, so IDK why they apparently like me a little, haha.

I've also been working at a law firm for four years since graduating (not in an area of interest) and would like to go this cycle and not delay going back to school.

[Dr_OIT]

Lol, I thought the other UM was University of Miami....

[lerusskiy1991]

Well, UMich agreed to match NYU's award. Still waiting from NU on scholarship and I have an interview with Chicago on Monday. Do you all feel that the lower col makes UMich preferable to NYU at this point?

[NyuIwantu]

A lot of weird inputs. I'm a splitter with a 3.92/165 and some WE, plus a good PS/DS, perhaps.

I so went to law school at the wrong time. If you were lucky you got into NYU with a 170 and a 3.9 a few years ago. Let alone $.

Congrats to OP. A great situation to be in!