St. Johns ($) vs Brooklyn ($$) vs Waitlists Forum

[Ferrisjso]

That answer was key. Literally all I was looking for. (The elitism on these threads is more than I expected) I am going to visit Brooklyn soon to make a final deposit decision. Unless I get off the waitlist at W&L or William and Mary, I think BL is where I am going to attend. I also never said I was deadset on BigLaw or Fed Clerking, they're just my ultimate goals. Thanks again.

I'm on the WL at W+L to! Yeah the elitism on the board is hard to get used to, but once you learn how to mine through the cringeworthy "you need a T13 to achieve your goals or don't go" type comments you can get some pretty useful info. While you should prefer Brooklyn no harm will be done if you ask them to remove your stips worse they can say is no. I also got an increased scholly today from Brooklyn(40k a year for the two year program same stips) so I'd hold out a few more days and they might throw a little more money your way.

[mjb447]

That answer was key. Literally all I was looking for. (The elitism on these threads is more than I expected) I am going to visit Brooklyn soon to make a final deposit decision. Unless I get off the waitlist at W&L or William and Mary, I think BL is where I am going to attend. I also never said I was deadset on BigLaw or Fed Clerking, they're just my ultimate goals. Thanks again.

I'm on the WL at W+L to! Yeah the elitism on the board is hard to get used to, but once you learn how to mine through the cringeworthy "you need a T13 to achieve your goals or don't go" type comments you can get some pretty useful info. While you should prefer Brooklyn no harm will be done if you ask them to remove your stips worse they can say is no. I also got an increased scholly today from Brooklyn(40k a year for the two year program same stips) so I'd hold out a few more days and they might throw a little more money your way.

If your goals are biglaw or fed. clerkship, the bolded isn't terrible advice, though.

[cavalier1138]

Congrats, Ferris. You helped steer someone into another terrible choice for their career goals.

OP: you will never, ever, ever, ever, not in a million years get biglaw or a federal clerkship from these schools. If those are your "ultimate goals", then this is a horrible decision. That's not "elitism"; it's the reality of job placement.

[Ferrisjso]

Congrats, Ferris. You helped steer someone into another terrible choice for their career goals.

OP: you will never, ever, ever, ever, not in a million years get biglaw or a federal clerkship from these schools. If those are your "ultimate goals", then this is a horrible decision. That's not "elitism"; it's the reality of job placement.

If 20%(give or take a little) is "never ever, ever, ever, not in a million years", then yes you are correct. FYI I just answered the question and if no one on here is willing to do it, I have to.

[BasilHallward]

I'm with cavalier here. Folks have been too supportive in this thread. Seriously? OP has a measly 15K/year scholarship from BLS and he should jump on board for an 18.5% chance at BigLaw. BLS is not a terrible choice for free, but 200k, no damn way. It's effectively 40k per year in tuition and COL in NYC, which you can bank is in the neighborhood of 60-70k for three years, plus interest, so over 200k. This is insane. C'mon TLS. I had more faith in you.

FWIW I have a good friend (3L) there and it's a living nightmare for him. Granted, he's below median and looking at over 200k in debt with no job yet. But, should you really go there expecting an above-median outcome?

[guynourmin]

Congrats, Ferris. You helped steer someone into another terrible choice for their career goals.

OP: you will never, ever, ever, ever, not in a million years get biglaw or a federal clerkship from these schools. If those are your "ultimate goals", then this is a horrible decision. That's not "elitism"; it's the reality of job placement.

If 20%(give or take a little) is "never ever, ever, ever, not in a million years", then yes you are correct. FYI I just answered the question and if no one on here is willing to do it, I have to.

20% last year at brooklyn. 13% the year before that. This is not a good school for OPs goals. OP should not go to these schools for that price. You have a significantly better option than OP does and you're still not committed to it!

[luckyirish13]

What do you think guys? Should I steal from a black man or an asian woman? I'm leaning towards the asian woman because women are dumb, but I also have a problem with black people. What do you think?

[UVA2B]

Should we all hunker down for a 6 page monstrosity here now ferris has dropped a "pessimism" bomb? Sounds like fun to me!

OP, literally every person considering law school is doing a cost-benefit analysis, plain and simple. The cost is obviously tuition and cost of living (with loans being the worst, followed by depleting savings, followed by family depleting savings, followed by simply having that much money to burn in terms of how seriously it should be treated). Whether you're considering Yale or Cooley, cost should weigh heavily on the decision. Next you should look at your employment goals, in this case Biglaw and federal clerkships. Finally, see how well the schools you're considering will get you to that goal. It really should be this formulaic (with obvious adjustments when there is not a clear-cut best option and considering your particular aversion to debt and risk).

All of the schools you're considering are statistically unlikely to get you into the jobs you want. Have you looked into what a forced curve means for grading? Almost every law school in the country uses one. Basically your objective mastery of the material is irrelevant. Your mastery and ability to display that mastery relative to your classmates' mastery and ability will determine your grades. And how this works functionally is that the vast majority of the class will be right around median (whatever median GPA that school sets) because you're all working hard and within the same general level of intelligence and drive, while a statistical minority will perform outstanding and be at the top of the class and a similar portion of the class will lose out and be at the bottom of the class. The only way to look at how you'll do is to assume you'll be a part of the median, because it's impossible to predict how well you'll understand the material relative to how well your classmates will understand the material.

I promise you that people here mean well when they tell you none of your current options give you much of a chance at achieving your goals. I know it's not possible to glean this, but having been around here for a minute, I'll tell you the majority of people being realistic and telling you you're unlikely to achieve your goals from these schools are law students or graduates who have experienced how a forced curve drives your success in law school. Most who have never been through it and don't understand how a forced curve tend to be more "optimistic" about law school performance, because they've never seen it for themselves.

If you're okay with the statistically likely outcomes from these schools, which would be small firms doing generally less complex work or to work for state or local government, then maybe these options become more realistic. But if you wouldn't be happy ending up with those jobs, and if you mean it that you'd just drop out and take over the family business if 1L didn't work out the way you wanted to limit your debt, then they might still be a reasonable gamble. But just realize you're statistically unlikely to end up in your currently stated goals.

For the record, if the above paragraph is true and you'd drop out after 1L if you ended up around median, then Brooklyn is the best option of your current admissions.

[BasilHallward]

Should we all hunker down for a 6 page monstrosity here now ferris has dropped a "pessimism" bomb? Sounds like fun to me!

OP, literally every person considering law school is doing a cost-benefit analysis, plain and simple. The cost is obviously tuition and cost of living (with loans being the worst, followed by depleting savings, followed by family depleting savings, followed by simply having that much money to burn in terms of how seriously it should be treated). Whether you're considering Yale or Cooley, cost should weigh heavily on the decision. Next you should look at your employment goals, in this case Biglaw and federal clerkships. Finally, see how well the schools you're considering will get you to that goal. It really should be this formulaic (with obvious adjustments when there is not a clear-cut best option and considering your particular aversion to debt and risk).

All of the schools you're considering are statistically unlikely to get you into the jobs you want. Have you looked into what a forced curve means for grading? Almost every law school in the country uses one. Basically your objective mastery of the material is irrelevant. Your mastery and ability to display that mastery relative to your classmates' mastery and ability will determine your grades. And how this works functionally is that the vast majority of the class will be right around median (whatever median GPA that school sets) because you're all working hard and within the same general level of intelligence and drive, while a statistical minority will perform outstanding and be at the top of the class and a similar portion of the class will lose out and be at the bottom of the class. The only way to look at how you'll do is to assume you'll be a part of the median, because it's impossible to predict how well you'll understand the material relative to how well your classmates will understand the material.

I promise you that people here mean well when they tell you none of your current options give you much of a chance at achieving your goals. I know it's not possible to glean this, but having been around here for a minute, I'll tell you the majority of people being realistic and telling you you're unlikely to achieve your goals from these schools are law students or graduates who have experienced how a forced curve drives your success in law school. Most who have never been through it and don't understand how a forced curve tend to be more "optimistic" about law school performance, because they've never seen it for themselves.

If you're okay with the statistically likely outcomes from these schools, which would be small firms doing generally less complex work or to work for state or local government, then maybe these options become more realistic. But if you wouldn't be happy ending up with those jobs, and if you mean it that you'd just drop out and take over the family business if 1L didn't work out the way you wanted to limit your debt, then they might still be a reasonable gamble. But just realize you're statistically unlikely to end up in your currently stated goals.

For the record, if the above paragraph is true and you'd drop out after 1L if you ended up around median, then Brooklyn is the best option of your current admissions.

This. OP we're not ragging on you. Just laying out the variables honestly. Law school is generally very stressful and full of self-doubting. And when things don't go as "planned" the situation can spiral out of control in a hurry. Taking on monstrous amounts of debt shouldn't be taken lightly, unless of course you're independently wealthy. Even then, why throw it away? I was given this same advice three years ago and it saved my ass. I didn't have horrible choices, but I retook the LSAT and maximized my options. Now, I'm facing 100k debt and I'm at UT. This amount of debt is real and it's scary (my family has no money). I did secure a BigLaw SA for this summer, so it alleviates the anxiety. With that being said, you need to run the actuarial tables out in your head and honestly evaluate likely outcomes.

Edit: Grammar

[Keekee1231]

no one on here is answering the question. Has St. Johns been ruled out? It is better ranked by USNWR, lawschoolstartclass, and better numbers on Law School Transparency. Why is this?

[cavalier1138]

I mean yeah I don't believe I am the average "I'm going to bank on being top of my class and hope I pay off my 200k debt." I am fortunate to know I will graduate in no debt. I also have the option of risking 1L in law school to see where I place. If it all turns out miserable I have a backup career plan. Also, if I am top, I could transfer....
Also, no one on here is answering the question. Has St. Johns been ruled out? It is better ranked by USNWR, lawschoolstartclass, and better numbers on Law School Transparency. Why is this?

If you're willing to "risk 1L" and drop out if you aren't happy with your results, I fail to see why you're even considering law school. Do you actually want to be a lawyer?

Also, if you aren't the average person banking on being the top of your class stop discussing the options from the top of the class.

[UVA2B]

I mean yeah I don't believe I am the average "I'm going to bank on being top of my class and hope I pay off my 200k debt." I am fortunate to know I will graduate in no debt. I also have the option of risking 1L in law school to see where I place. If it all turns out miserable I have a backup career plan. Also, if I am top, I could transfer....
Also, no one on here is answering the question. Has St. Johns been ruled out? It is better ranked by USNWR, lawschoolstartclass, and better numbers on Law School Transparency. Why is this?

If you're willing to "risk 1L" and drop out if you aren't happy with your results, I fail to see why you're even considering law school. Do you actually want to be a lawyer?

St. Johns is notorious for what's known as "section stacking," meaning they place scholarship students in the same section so some of them end up losing their scholarship due to not being in the "top 60%." Look up their ABA 509 report to see how often students lose scholarships. St. Johns without stipulations could tip the scales that way, but that's the reason people believe Brooklyn is a relatively not as bad decision.

[Ferrisjso]

Congrats, Ferris. You helped steer someone into another terrible choice for their career goals.

OP: you will never, ever, ever, ever, not in a million years get biglaw or a federal clerkship from these schools. If those are your "ultimate goals", then this is a horrible decision. That's not "elitism"; it's the reality of job placement.

If 20%(give or take a little) is "never ever, ever, ever, not in a million years", then yes you are correct. FYI I just answered the question and if no one on here is willing to do it, I have to.

20% last year at brooklyn. 13% the year before that. This is not a good school for OPs goals. OP should not go to these schools for that price. You have a significantly better option than OP does and you're still not committed to it!

Employment stats are not the reason for that.

[Keekee1231]

so all money and stips aside.. is St. Johns the better school..?

[Ferrisjso]

so all money and stips aside.. is St. Johns the better school..?

No. The consensus is probably that Brooklyn is a little bit better or at worst the same.

[Keekee1231]

Ok, once again, thank you! lol

[UVA2B]

no one on here is answering the question. Has St. Johns been ruled out? It is better ranked by USNWR, lawschoolstartclass, and better numbers on Law School Transparency. Why is this?

Stealth edit, btw.

Look, people have laid out the decision you're making right now. They've given you many reasons to reconsider this decision, and I even went so far as to lay out the entire decision-making process. Don't listen to rankings. LST slightly tips the scales toward St. Johns for relatively better employment stats, but the stipulation with the scholarship is a bad one. Brooklyn is still not a great option for your goals, but at least there isn't as egregious a stipulation (which should be understood in my entire discussion on forced curves).

These aren't good gambles if you're truly committed to being an attorney, and more specifically if you're truly committed to working in Biglaw and getting a federal clerkship, but they are your gambles to make. You seem to know the stats, hopefully you understand the realities of your options, and the rest is on you. You won't be in debt, but you'll still be spending a ton of money on this. If you're honestly ok with going into a casino with only two outcomes you'd be happy with that give you at best a 20% chance of getting them, then you're much more reckless than I am. That's on you.

ETA: irrelevant edit cause I realized there was a slightly more reasonable stipulation on BLS scholarship

[UVA2B]

so all money and stips aside.. is St. Johns the better school..?

No. The consensus is probably that Brooklyn is a little bit better or at worst the same.

They're the same. They are expensive regional options in the most oversaturated market in the entire world.

[Keekee1231]

Right. Good points. I do want to be a lawyer and no, the answer of "retake an get above a 165" is not realistic for me. I understand that I am looking at some tier 1 - mostly all tier 2s. They mainly have similar outcomes. Quite frankly, St. Johns and Brooklyn seem to have the best BigLaw and small firm placement out of all tier 2's and some tier 1's. Thanks for looking out and not providing a condescending answer though.

[grades??]

Right. Good points. I do want to be a lawyer and no, the answer of "retake an get above a 165" is not realistic for me. I understand that I am looking at some tier 1 - mostly all tier 2s. They mainly have similar outcomes. Quite frankly, St. Johns and Brooklyn seem to have the best BigLaw and small firm placement out of all tier 2's and some tier 1's. Thanks for looking out and not providing a condescending answer though.

Then just understand your chances of getting biglaw from either are 0. So get biglaw out of your mind if you go to either. Especially get clerkships out of your mind. Honestly dude, you are just gonna waste 200k for a degree you sound like you don't even want with employment outcomes that don't match your expectations.

But please come back in 3 years and cry to us how you didn't get biglaw/clerk from either

[Npret]

That answer was key. Literally all I was looking for. (The elitism on these threads is more than I expected) I am going to visit Brooklyn soon to make a final deposit decision. Unless I get off the waitlist at W&L or William and Mary, I think BL is where I am going to attend. I also never said I was deadset on BigLaw or Fed Clerking, they're just my ultimate goals. Thanks again.

I don't understand the difference between "deadset" and "ultimate goals." What do you really want?

I also don't believe for a second that these schools place 20% of their class as biglaw associates.

Brooklyn doesn't disclose detailed information like job in the law firm or salary. If 20% of their class was making $180,000 they would be shouting from the rooftops.

Also, St Johns only claims 14.5% work in large firms.

I'm not trying to be elitist. I'm trying to be realistic.
You need to get rid of the stipulations from each school. You also should ask to talk to recent grads working in whatever job you want to work.

[Rigo]

Right. Good points. I do want to be a lawyer and no, the answer of "retake an get above a 165" is not realistic for me. I understand that I am looking at some tier 1 - mostly all tier 2s. They mainly have similar outcomes. Quite frankly, St. Johns and Brooklyn seem to have the best BigLaw and small firm placement out of all tier 2's and some tier 1's. Thanks for looking out and not providing a condescending answer though.

Then just understand your chances of getting biglaw from either are 0. So get biglaw out of your mind if you go to either.

Eh this is a bit much. OP should def have more realistic fall backs but it ~could~ happen. 15-20% of each class gets bigLaw which is pretty decent for schools in that tier.

The main problem is these stips, OP.
And honestly the rankings are pretty worthless at that level. Next year brooklyn could easily be on top. There is so much fluctuation. Rutgers jumped 30 places this year. Should someone choose Rutgers because of that? Hell no. They could drop 40 next year.

Get rid of those stips though. They SCREAM section stacking.

[Keekee1231]

Not dead set meaning being ok with working in small firm/public sector. Ultimate goals meaning it would be the most preferential.

[Npret]

Right. Good points. I do want to be a lawyer and no, the answer of "retake an get above a 165" is not realistic for me. I understand that I am looking at some tier 1 - mostly all tier 2s. They mainly have similar outcomes. Quite frankly, St. Johns and Brooklyn seem to have the best BigLaw and small firm placement out of all tier 2's and some tier 1's. Thanks for looking out and not providing a condescending answer though.

Then just understand your chances of getting biglaw from either are 0. So get biglaw out of your mind if you go to either.

Eh this is a bit much. OP should def have more realistic fall backs but it ~could~ happen. 15-20% of each class gets bigLaw which is pretty decent for schools in that tier.

The main problem is these stips, OP.
And honestly the rankings are pretty worthless at that level. Next year brooklyn could easily be on top. There is so much fluctuation. Rutgers jumped 30 places this year. Should someone choose Rutgers because of that? Hell no. They could drop 40 next year.

Get rid of those stips though. They SCREAM section stacking.

I am dubious of the 20% biglaw claim by Brooklyn. They can say someone is employed by biglaw but don't breakdown how many in what position. They have absolutely no salary info either.

[Rigo]

So what is your actual debt at each going to be including living expenses for 3 years?