U Chicago (15k total) vs UVA (half) for BigFed Forum

[pjb]

Longtime lurker here. I would like some help from the TLS community to address my particular situation. For the record, I am interested in doing a federal clerkship after law school and then hopefully going into federal government (DoJ honors, or DoD/homeland/State as I am particularly interested in national security law. I would not be averse to 2- max 3 years of Biglaw (preferred market D.C.) but I know it's not where I want to be. i also have an interest in politics (not running myself but staffing for Congress) and late in my career perhaps doing academia.

Seems like the consensus is take the money if I want Biglaw, but I feel like my particular career goals may confound the traditional analysis a bit. I'm worried about the relative difficulty of securing those bigfed jobs. How how important is the additional U Chicago prestige for the kind of career I outlined, compared to the lower amount of debt as it relates to LRAP, PSLF? Thoughts are appreciated!

Not gonna retake.

[zot1]

If you're not willing to retake, get ready for then golden handcuffs.

Check employment stats and see which gives you the better odds at your goals.

[WheninLaw]

Longtime lurker here. I would like some help from the TLS community to address my particular situation. For the record, I am interested in doing a federal clerkship after law school and then hopefully going into federal government (DoJ honors, or DoD/homeland/State as I am particularly interested in national security law. I would not be averse to 2- max 3 years of Biglaw (preferred market D.C.) but I know it's not where I want to be. i also have an interest in politics (not running myself but staffing for Congress) and late in my career perhaps doing academia.

Seems like the consensus is take the money if I want Biglaw, but I feel like my particular career goals may confound the traditional analysis a bit. I'm worried about the relative difficulty of securing those bigfed jobs. How how important is the additional U Chicago prestige for the kind of career I outlined, compared to the lower amount of debt as it relates to LRAP, PSLF? Thoughts are appreciated!

Not gonna retake.

You're probably not going to get a federal clerkship, are unlikely to get DOJ honors, and have ~ zero shot at academia. Most like scenario is Biglaw, and if that's the case, UVA is the right choice.

[zot1]

Since everyone is voting for UVA for biglaw, what gives? I just looked at the stats and they're both pretty close.

[Anon.y.mousse.]

Longtime lurker here. I would like some help from the TLS community to address my particular situation. For the record, I am interested in doing a federal clerkship after law school and then hopefully going into federal government (DoJ honors, or DoD/homeland/State as I am particularly interested in national security law. I would not be averse to 2- max 3 years of Biglaw (preferred market D.C.) but I know it's not where I want to be. i also have an interest in politics (not running myself but staffing for Congress) and late in my career perhaps doing academia.

Seems like the consensus is take the money if I want Biglaw, but I feel like my particular career goals may confound the traditional analysis a bit. I'm worried about the relative difficulty of securing those bigfed jobs. How how important is the additional U Chicago prestige for the kind of career I outlined, compared to the lower amount of debt as it relates to LRAP, PSLF? Thoughts are appreciated!

Not gonna retake.

You're probably not going to get a federal clerkship, are unlikely to get DOJ honors, and have ~ zero shot at academia. Most like scenario is Biglaw, and if that's the case, UVA is the right choice.

Sorry for hijacking but I want to butt in because I have incredibly similar goals (minus the politics and academia). I work for DOJ now and want to come back to it or another federal agency after a federal clerkship. Are you saying most likely scenario is BigLaw because of the schools OP is asking about or just the competitive nature of clerkships and Fed Honors/other BigFed hiring? I'm choosing between 150k to Mich and 90k (currently, hoping for a bit more) from Chicago and not sure if the increased "prestige" of Chicago is worth it.

[WheninLaw]

Longtime lurker here. I would like some help from the TLS community to address my particular situation. For the record, I am interested in doing a federal clerkship after law school and then hopefully going into federal government (DoJ honors, or DoD/homeland/State as I am particularly interested in national security law. I would not be averse to 2- max 3 years of Biglaw (preferred market D.C.) but I know it's not where I want to be. i also have an interest in politics (not running myself but staffing for Congress) and late in my career perhaps doing academia.

Seems like the consensus is take the money if I want Biglaw, but I feel like my particular career goals may confound the traditional analysis a bit. I'm worried about the relative difficulty of securing those bigfed jobs. How how important is the additional U Chicago prestige for the kind of career I outlined, compared to the lower amount of debt as it relates to LRAP, PSLF? Thoughts are appreciated!

Not gonna retake.

You're probably not going to get a federal clerkship, are unlikely to get DOJ honors, and have ~ zero shot at academia. Most like scenario is Biglaw, and if that's the case, UVA is the right choice.

Sorry for hijacking but I want to butt in because I have incredibly similar goals (minus the politics and academia). I work for DOJ now and want to come back to it or another federal agency after a federal clerkship. Are you saying most likely scenario is BigLaw because of the schools OP is asking about or just the competitive nature of clerkships and Fed Honors/other BigFed hiring? I'm choosing between 150k to Mich and 90k (currently, hoping for a bit more) from Chicago and not sure if the increased "prestige" of Chicago is worth it.

Biglaw is most likely due to the competitive nature of clerkships and Fed Honors/other BidFed hiring. Even at Chicago, it is very difficult to land these jobs, and any advantage over Michigan/UVA/etc. isn't big enough to justify taking on much more debt.

[WheninLaw]

Since everyone is voting for UVA for biglaw, what gives? I just looked at the stats and they're both pretty close.

I think you are ignoring the massive difference in price for OP between the two.

[zot1]

Since everyone is voting for UVA for biglaw, what gives? I just looked at the stats and they're both pretty close.

I think you are ignoring the massive difference in price for OP between the two.

Oh I see. I just thought you meant "your best choice at biglaw is UVA" but now I get you're saying that's the case given the value.

UVA is the way to go OP. Enjoy humidity.

[curry1]

Since everyone is voting for UVA for biglaw, what gives? I just looked at the stats and they're both pretty close.

I think you are ignoring the massive difference in price for OP between the two.

UVA's COA is also 10k cheaper per year, so OP is looking at a ~100k difference between the two.

[zot1]

Since everyone is voting for UVA for biglaw, what gives? I just looked at the stats and they're both pretty close.

I think you are ignoring the massive difference in price for OP between the two.

UVA's COA is also 10k cheaper per year, so OP is looking at a ~100k difference between the two.

My original message was to compare the stats. I didn't realize they were basically equal. Then I misunderstood what When was saying.

[Nebby]

Didn't even need to read the OP to know the answer is UVA.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Same. Can't imagine a life-circumstance that would ever make UChi (or any other CCN) worth 100K+ more than an MVP.

(Unless you're that independently wealthy scion in the other thread who's crushing Mother Dearest's and Darling Father's nest egg for dat preftige bump.)

[BlendedUnicorn]

Also who the fuck knows what fedgov hiring will look like in 3.5-8 years. It may come booming back or it may shrink down to virtually nothing. I wouldn't go to law school right now with aspirations to work fedgov unless I was willing to commit to firm life for the long haul or had other acceptable goals (bigState).

[OneHandedEconomist]

UVA. Let me lay out the 3 situations coming out of UVA.

1) Tippity top of the class: grade onto LR, get a clerkship, be able to do bigfed. With less debt, you don't have to worry about taking bigfed as much because you can pay off your loans pretty quickly.

2) Median. Do biglaw, pay off smaller loans, maybe lateral to govt.

3) Bottom of class. Graduate with less debt, be able to do PI/hang shingle/do whatever you want once you pay off your debt.

There's basically no case where UChi will make this better.

[A. Nony Mouse]

And frankly BigFed isn't going to care about the difference between Chicago and UVA, like AT ALL.

(I also think that WheninLaw is a little pessimistic about clerking at least, but it's too early to tell, really.)

[pjb]

Thank you all for your feedback. I'm aware of the difficulty of getting those bigfed jobs, so the main question I guess comes down to how much of an advantage is the Chicago name rather than the UVA name in that endeavor? Would it allow me to be, say, in the top 25% of the class rather than top 5% (hypothetical). Or is the quality of faculty and connections just so much better at Chicago as to drastically increase my odds? A Nony Mousse hinted that there isn't much of a difference but I'd like to hear more about why or why not that is and see who agrees/disagrees.

I am trying to come up with an analysis of the difference in opportunity dynamic independent of COA (for now) and then after getting an idea of the differences in opportunity for BigFed at both schools will compare that difference to COA difference. The employment data I've seen makes figuring that out difficult because of self-selection and bundling of fed gov in with PI (unless someone knows of more descriptive data out there).

Thanks again, and I will prob pick UVA for less risk but want to make sure I fully think this through and understand what's before me.

[mjb447]

(I also think that WheninLaw is a little pessimistic about clerking at least, but it's too early to tell, really.)

+1. This seems like a pretty premature call, unless it's just a way of expressing the usual caveat to not plan your entire career around getting a clerkship because lots of people don't get them.

[Po$eidon]

UVA. This one is easy.

[A. Nony Mouse]

As someone who works for the Feds and knows people in fed employment with degrees from basically everywhere, there is no real appreciable difference between the top schools. You might not follow the same path from each school, but that will be because there are too many factors to predict (which profs you get to know, what internships you do, etc). There is no appreciable difference between the faculty at Chicago and the faculty at UVA, and big fed hiring from either will be about what you do versus where you do it.

[Nebby]

As someone who spent a lot of BigFed attorneys, they studied at all sorts of schools. I have only met one UChi grad in federal employment whereas I met tons of UVA grads. UVA has a huge alumni base in the federal government.

[existentialcrisis]

I was under the impression that one of the most common ways to get a government gig was by lateralling from biglaw lit?

Either way. Uva is the right choice.

[zot1]

Deleted.

[zot1]

I was under the impression that one of the most common ways to get a government gig was by lateralling from biglaw lit?

Either way. Uva is the right choice.

It's a lot easier, imo, to get hired out of graduation/clerkship because that's when the most openings are available. After that, you're applying to a smaller pool of openings.

[Nebby]

I was under the impression that one of the most common ways to get a government gig was by lateralling from biglaw lit?

Either way. Uva is the right choice.

Not really. That's typically only the case if you want to be an AUSA in a competitive district (SDNY, NDCA, etc.)

[WheninLaw]

(I also think that WheninLaw is a little pessimistic about clerking at least, but it's too early to tell, really.)

+1. This seems like a pretty premature call, unless it's just a way of expressing the usual caveat to not plan your entire career around getting a clerkship because lots of people don't get them.

Yeah, you are both probably right, although I think that unless the schools in question include Yale or Stanford, "getting a federal clerkship" should not be a large consideration. Both the possibility of attaining one and the placements between schools is just too slim.