Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School Forum

[existentialcrisis]

I've always been under the impression that those in the T10 (if not T13) can have biglaw if they want, and those who choose a life outside biglaw generally do so on their own volition. Is this not true?

For some yes, and if you look at Yale and Stanford that's probably the case for the majority of those who don't BigLaw it up but anything beyond that is gonna be mostly people for whom it wasn't in the cards.

So there's plenty of people at Harvard that wants it but can't get it?

Actually a few people from Harvard do strike out. But I also disagree that the almost all of the people in all the schools that aren't in BL or FC struck out. At a school like NYU, I am guessing a large portion of the student body are PI gunners. And all t13 schools have decent number of ppl looking to do PI. Definitely people are striking out at all these schools, but not sure the numbers reflect all of them

If you break down the numbers in the ABA Data you can probably get a decent picture. If Unemployed/Under-Employed -> Strikeouts (or constructive strikeouts). FedGov might not be. PI could go either way. Small firms -> Probably strikeout. Local Gov -> Probably strikeout. Local Clerkship -> Probably strikeout (I have heard of people whose firms deferred them so they could do a state clerkship but I dunno if this is common). Business -> Look at if the school has a big JD/MBA Program

I'm a little more optimistic than this, but there are for sure a good deal of people that strike out at T14s every year, many more when the economy is bad.

But, I'm looking at Penn's employment data right now, and from the clerkship breakdown at the bottom, our state clerkships seem to be mostly either Chancery Court or SSC. And for the 6 people at 50-100 firms, the 25/50/75 salary is 100, 115, 150, so I assume these are regional biglawish firms? I guess I also always assumed that some people at tiny firms were at fancy boutiques, but that's also entirely speculation and I know nothing about that either way.

[star fox]

I've always been under the impression that those in the T10 (if not T13) can have biglaw if they want, and those who choose a life outside biglaw generally do so on their own volition. Is this not true?

For some yes, and if you look at Yale and Stanford that's probably the case for the majority of those who don't BigLaw it up but anything beyond that is gonna be mostly people for whom it wasn't in the cards.

So there's plenty of people at Harvard that wants it but can't get it?

Actually a few people from Harvard do strike out. But I also disagree that the almost all of the people in all the schools that aren't in BL or FC struck out. At a school like NYU, I am guessing a large portion of the student body are PI gunners. And all t13 schools have decent number of ppl looking to do PI. Definitely people are striking out at all these schools, but not sure the numbers reflect all of them

If you break down the numbers in the ABA Data you can probably get a decent picture. If Unemployed/Under-Employed -> Strikeouts (or constructive strikeouts). FedGov might not be. PI could go either way. Small firms -> Probably strikeout. Local Gov -> Probably strikeout. Local Clerkship -> Probably strikeout (I have heard of people whose firms deferred them so they could do a state clerkship but I dunno if this is common). Business -> Look at if the school has a big JD/MBA Program

I'm a little more optimistic than this, but there are for sure a good deal of people that strike out at T14s every year, many more when the economy is bad.

But, I'm looking at Penn's employment data right now, and from the clerkship breakdown at the bottom, our state clerkships seem to be mostly either Chancery Court or SSC. And for the 6 people at 50-100 firms, the 25/50/75 salary is 100, 115, 150, so I assume these are regional biglawish firms? I guess I also always assumed that some people at tiny firms were at fancy boutiques, but that's also entirely speculation and I know nothing about that either way.

All these 0Ls should by lobbying Deans to publish comprehensive salary data.

[bearsfan23]

I've always been under the impression that those in the T10 (if not T13) can have biglaw if they want, and those who choose a life outside biglaw generally do so on their own volition. Is this not true?

For some yes, and if you look at Yale and Stanford that's probably the case for the majority of those who don't BigLaw it up but anything beyond that is gonna be mostly people for whom it wasn't in the cards.

So there's plenty of people at Harvard that wants it but can't get it?

Actually a few people from Harvard do strike out. But I also disagree that the almost all of the people in all the schools that aren't in BL or FC struck out. At a school like NYU, I am guessing a large portion of the student body are PI gunners. And all t13 schools have decent number of ppl looking to do PI. Definitely people are striking out at all these schools, but not sure the numbers reflect all of them

If you break down the numbers in the ABA Data you can probably get a decent picture. If Unemployed/Under-Employed -> Strikeouts (or constructive strikeouts). FedGov might not be. PI could go either way. Small firms -> Probably strikeout. Local Gov -> Probably strikeout. Local Clerkship -> Probably strikeout (I have heard of people whose firms deferred them so they could do a state clerkship but I dunno if this is common). Business -> Look at if the school has a big JD/MBA Program

I'm a little more optimistic than this, but there are for sure a good deal of people that strike out at T14s every year, many more when the economy is bad.

But, I'm looking at Penn's employment data right now, and from the clerkship breakdown at the bottom, our state clerkships seem to be mostly either Chancery Court or SSC. And for the 6 people at 50-100 firms, the 25/50/75 salary is 100, 115, 150, so I assume these are regional biglawish firms? I guess I also always assumed that some people at tiny firms were at fancy boutiques, but that's also entirely speculation and I know nothing about that either way.

I agree with this. I can only speak for my school, but just looking at the employment data pretty much everyone who is doing PI/Gov work are the Nebby-types who want to be doing that work. And like Penn, our non-federal clerkships are all SSC, which is hardly a bad outcome. And even the small firm people are great outcomes, because those people are working at places like Grippo & Elden and Eimer Stahl, etc.

At least within the T-6/10/13, assuming non-BL/FC outcomes are "strikeouts" is just false in most cases. Actually, I think the more BL people are unhappy with their outcomes than anything else

[Tiago Splitter]

To add to the above, a non-trivial amount of the biglaw/fedclerk people at these schools struck out the first time around but bounced back. Striking out at 2L OCI sucks but is far from a death sentence.

[proleteriate]

To add to the above, a non-trivial amount of the biglaw/fedclerk people at these schools struck out the first time around but bounced back. Striking out at 2L OCI sucks but is far from a death sentence.

bounced back how?

[Tiago Splitter]

To add to the above, a non-trivial amount of the biglaw/fedclerk people at these schools struck out the first time around but bounced back. Striking out at 2L OCI sucks but is far from a death sentence.

bounced back how?

Kept up the grind. Got good grades, had career services make a couple calls, etc. I know multiple people that got legitimate 2L summer offers in like January/February after striking out via normal OCI channels. Not super common but it happens.

[champloo]

To add to the above, a non-trivial amount of the biglaw/fedclerk people at these schools struck out the first time around but bounced back. Striking out at 2L OCI sucks but is far from a death sentence.

bounced back how?

Kept up the grind. Got good grades, had career services make a couple calls, etc. I know multiple people that got legitimate 2L summer offers in like January/February after striking out via normal OCI channels. Not super common but it happens.

I also know of a few people who kept up the grind their 2L year and received offers during 3L after striking out at 2L OCI.

[proleteriate]

To add to the above, a non-trivial amount of the biglaw/fedclerk people at these schools struck out the first time around but bounced back. Striking out at 2L OCI sucks but is far from a death sentence.

bounced back how?

Kept up the grind. Got good grades, had career services make a couple calls, etc. I know multiple people that got legitimate 2L summer offers in like January/February after striking out via normal OCI channels. Not super common but it happens.

I also know of a few people who kept up the grind their 2L year and received offers during 3L after striking out at 2L OCI.

I feel like this will only happen with any regularity inside the T6

[registering]

To add to the above, a non-trivial amount of the biglaw/fedclerk people at these schools struck out the first time around but bounced back. Striking out at 2L OCI sucks but is far from a death sentence.

bounced back how?

Kept up the grind. Got good grades, had career services make a couple calls, etc. I know multiple people that got legitimate 2L summer offers in like January/February after striking out via normal OCI channels. Not super common but it happens.

I also know of a few people who kept up the grind their 2L year and received offers during 3L after striking out at 2L OCI.

I feel like this will only happen with any regularity inside the T6

It's rare but happens regularly at most T13s.

[Npret]

Also massmailing allows people to get offers before (and after if necessary at)OCI. People bid stupidly, have bad days, etc.

Just a public service announcement

[Nebby]

What schools am I missing?

[registering]

What schools am I missing?

Chicago, BC, ND, Fordham, someone did up to T75 around page 10.

[OneHandedEconomist]

What schools am I missing?

Yale

[favabeansoup]

Michigan up.

https://www.law.umich.edu/careers/class ... of2016.pdf

175 grads in 100+ firms.
42 fed clerks
327 total grads.

66.36% biglaw fed clerk. [2015 was 61% so +5.36% this year. ]

Overall looks like this was a pretty good year for employment prospects, especially amongst lower t14 and t20-25 schools.

I don't really think the shifts from the rest of the T14 between 75-85 rate are indicative of that much in broader market growth as much as these kinds of improvements from lower schools are.

UT will probably disappoint though.

[proteinshake]

why is Mich usually a bit lower than its peers? I know there are a lot of PI people but I didn't think it was enough to make a 10% difference.

[Torres1893]

At ASD UT said their employment scores for 2016 are the same or better than last years. I sure hope they are better if Vandy's went up a decent amount.

[favabeansoup]

BU also up ( not sure if mentioned before)

https://www.bu.edu/law/files/2017/04/Cl ... 4.7.17.pdf

36.2% biglaw fed clerk

[Excited_To_Apply]

why is Mich usually a bit lower than its peers? I know there are a lot of PI people but I didn't think it was enough to make a 10% difference.

Because MI'ss biglaw numbers are not as good. MI's biglaw+clerk is ~66% compared to, ~80% at Duke and UVA. And MI has just a few percent more in PI/Gov.

[LtotheB]

why is Mich usually a bit lower than its peers? I know there are a lot of PI people but I didn't think it was enough to make a 10% difference.

PI + the fact that UMich really doesn't have a natural market since the economy of Detroit cratered. At least that's what I've seen people attribute it to.

[Thelaw23]

When will we see CLS and NYU stats?

[guynourmin]

Mich also has a pretty high state clerk number here.

[Thelaw23]

Mich also has a pretty high state clerk number here.

The fed clerk number is pretty high though. Maybe the students from UMich just opt to apply for less competitive fed circuits/districts?

[Dr. Nefario]

https://www.bu.edu/law/careers/employme ... s-of-2016/

BU officially posted.

78 BL + 2 FC (221 grads) = 36.2%

yo

[guynourmin]

Mich also has a pretty high state clerk number here.

The fed clerk number is pretty high though. Maybe the students from UMich just opt to apply for less competitive fed circuits/districts?

above someone asked why Mich's numbers were so low and that PI doesn't totally explain it. Mich has more state clerks than Penn, UVA, and Cornell combined. That's not a bad thing - they could have sent most of those to var state supreme courts for all we know - but it just explains where some of those other students are.

[RParadela]

why is Mich usually a bit lower than its peers? I know there are a lot of PI people but I didn't think it was enough to make a 10% difference.

PI + the fact that UMich really doesn't have a natural market since the economy of Detroit cratered. At least that's what I've seen people attribute it to.

Duke doesn't really have a natural market either but their numbers are significantly better than michigans