Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI Forum

[brennakate]

Hi all,

Thanks in advance for your feedback on this.

I am planning on going into public interest, specifically public defense (ideally at the federal level). I am confident that I will end up in an LRAP-eligible position. I'll be financing my COA through loans.

I've narrowed my pool down to:

Michigan - $30,000/year scholarship, estimated $173,102 total debt.
Duke – $24,00/year scholarship, estimated $218,804 total debt.
Cornell - $35,000/year scholarship, estimated $184,020 total debt.
NYU – have not received my offer yet, but am assuming I may be paying sticker.

I've been living in Portland (OR) for almost ten years, and plan to return here upon graduation, although that's not set in stone. [If it matters, 168 LSAT/3.93 GPA. I only took the LSAT once, but I am determined to start this fall rather than re-taking and applying next year. (I’ve already put in notice at my job, etc.)]

Any advice regarding negotiation strategies would also be appreciated – I plan to reach out to Duke, just not sure yet what my best tactic is.

Thank you all!

[mikachu]

Did you apply to UVA? They have a great criminal law/justice program that would compliment your interests. Probably wouldn't offer any $$$ tho

[brennakate]

Did you apply to UVA? They have a great criminal law/justice program that would compliment your interests. Probably wouldn't offer any $$$ tho

Nope, did not apply.

[Rigo]

There isn't any real affordable option here. I'd honestly pick NYU. The debt will be greater (but at that point might as well monopolize debt) but the LRAP superior so it's the better deal.

[cavalier1138]

You didn't apply to any PNW schools?

I think NYU is the best of your options, just because they're all too much debt, but the LRAP at NYU is the most solid of the group. But a full scholarship at any of the strong regionals in the PNW would get you a PD job in Portland.

[brennakate]

You didn't apply to any PNW schools?

I think NYU is the best of your options, just because they're all too much debt, but the LRAP at NYU is the most solid of the group. But a full scholarship at any of the strong regionals in the PNW would get you a PD job in Portland.

I applied to UW, Berkeley, and Lewis and Clark -- got $0 from UW and $40k/year from L&C. No word yet from Berkeley.

[cavalier1138]

You didn't apply to any PNW schools?

I think NYU is the best of your options, just because they're all too much debt, but the LRAP at NYU is the most solid of the group. But a full scholarship at any of the strong regionals in the PNW would get you a PD job in Portland.

I applied to UW, Berkeley, and Lewis and Clark -- got $0 from UW and $40k/year from L&C. No word yet from Berkeley.

I'd try negotiating with UW. No way your numbers get you $0 there and close to half tuition at the lower T14.

[brennakate]

Update: $20k/year scholarship from NYU, which according to the Georgetown calculator maths out to about $253,500 total debt. Do people think NYU is worth the extra $75,000 in debt over Michigan? Thanks again for your feedback/advice.

[Lincoln]

Update: $20k/year scholarship from NYU, which according to the Georgetown calculator maths out to about $253,500 total debt. Do people think NYU is worth the extra $75,000 in debt over Michigan? Thanks again for your feedback/advice.

No. I'd pick Michigan or Cornell here, based on personal preference (assuming not material difference between LRAP at each school).

[cavalier1138]

Update: $20k/year scholarship from NYU, which according to the Georgetown calculator maths out to about $253,500 total debt. Do people think NYU is worth the extra $75,000 in debt over Michigan? Thanks again for your feedback/advice.

No. I'd pick Michigan or Cornell here, based on personal preference (assuming not material difference between LRAP at each school).

But since there is a material difference among the LRAP programs...

[Lincoln]

Update: $20k/year scholarship from NYU, which according to the Georgetown calculator maths out to about $253,500 total debt. Do people think NYU is worth the extra $75,000 in debt over Michigan? Thanks again for your feedback/advice.

No. I'd pick Michigan or Cornell here, based on personal preference (assuming not material difference between LRAP at each school).

But since there is a material difference among the LRAP programs...

I meant between M and C.

But to your point, I know little-to-nothing about LRAP, so to make this thread more informative: What makes NYU's LRAP more "solid" and why is it worth $75,000?

[cavalier1138]

I meant between M and C.

But to your point, I know little-to-nothing about LRAP, so to make this thread more informative: What makes NYU's LRAP more "solid" and why is it worth $75,000?

NYU already has an LRAP program that has a non-PSLF option for anyone doing public service in a non-PSLF job. So if you're concerned about PSLF, that's a plus. Some other considerations:

-Michigan doesn't cover clerkships, regardless of whether the clerk goes into an eligible job afterwards.
-Michigan and Cornell have upper limits on income ($88,000 for Michigan, $80,000 for Cornell).
-NYU and Cornell have much better repayment under the PSLF-integrated plan than Michigan (all payments covered 100% for income under $80,000 at both NYU and Cornell).
-Cornell adds spousal income if you file jointly, even if your spouse makes less than you do. It's not clear whether they allow a higher overall income threshold for married couples filing jointly.
-NYU and Michigan offer "insurance" for negative amortization, should it be an issue.
-NYU's only real negative compared to the other two is that you can no longer participate in LRAP if you have net assets of $20,000 (which includes loans, so it's more symbolic than anything).

[Rigo]

Honestly I'd go NYU if truly committed to PI since there isn't a truly affordable option on the table.

[lilitiger99]

Hi all,

Thanks in advance for your feedback on this.

I am planning on going into public interest, specifically public defense (ideally at the federal level). I am confident that I will end up in an LRAP-eligible position. I'll be financing my COA through loans.

I've narrowed my pool down to:

Michigan - $30,000/year scholarship, estimated $173,102 total debt.
Duke – $24,00/year scholarship, estimated $218,804 total debt.
Cornell - $35,000/year scholarship, estimated $184,020 total debt.
NYU – have not received my offer yet, but am assuming I may be paying sticker.

I've been living in Portland (OR) for almost ten years, and plan to return here upon graduation, although that's not set in stone. [If it matters, 168 LSAT/3.93 GPA. I only took the LSAT once, but I am determined to start this fall rather than re-taking and applying next year. (I’ve already put in notice at my job, etc.)]

Any advice regarding negotiation strategies would also be appreciated – I plan to reach out to Duke, just not sure yet what my best tactic is.

Thank you all!

we're in the same boat. Same offers, same considerations basically

[michlaw]

Update: $20k/year scholarship from NYU, which according to the Georgetown calculator maths out to about $253,500 total debt. Do people think NYU is worth the extra $75,000 in debt over Michigan? Thanks again for your feedback/advice.

No it is not. Michigan is your best choice here. Yes NYU has a better LRAP in certain circumstances but the 75k in the hand is better than that bird.The mid-west Michigan vibe would play better in Portland than the NYC make it there mantra imo.

[Rigo]

Update: $20k/year scholarship from NYU, which according to the Georgetown calculator maths out to about $253,500 total debt. Do people think NYU is worth the extra $75,000 in debt over Michigan? Thanks again for your feedback/advice.

No it is not. Michigan is your best choice here. Yes NYU has a better LRAP in certain circumstances but the 75k in the hand is better than that bird.The mid-west Michigan vibe would play better in Portland than the NYC make it there mantra imo.

But all debts are unable to be serviced, so I think it really should come down to LRAP here.
Also your Michigan places better in the PNW assertion is silly and I don't believe it for a second.

[cavalier1138]

The mid-west Michigan vibe would play better in Portland than the NYC make it there mantra imo.

Yeah, that's bullshit. No one in the PNW thinks that the Midwest is remotely comparable, and the central issue is that if the OP won't be able to service any of these levels of debt, they should take the best LRAP program.

[existentialcrisis]

Does T14 really give you a leg up in terms of becoming a Federal PD? (This is a serious question by the way). If not, then might OP be better off going to a state flagship for free?

Edit: Just looked at Oregon's LST page, and their employment stats are terrible, I guess that's kind of a problem if Portland is the goal.

[nyu2019maybeplease]

Source, oh oracle? No clue if you're right but let's try to keep this civil. No need for nastiness, everyone's trying to help.

OP: These are all uncomfortably expensive options that offer you a decent but not surefire shot to do what you want.

If you like big cities and think the excitement of NYC is worth the extra dime and draws on your attention, go for it. It's an incredible city and while A2 is fun, no comparison in terms of opportunities.

If you think you'd thrive in a more focuses environment and/or the community-minded approach of Michigan is appealing, come check it out.

I'd say tie goes to cheaper option, but you're the best judge of present v. future money value for yourself.

The mid-west Michigan vibe would play better in Portland than the NYC make it there mantra imo.

Yeah, that's bullshit. No one in the PNW thinks that the Midwest is remotely comparable, and the central issue is that if the OP won't be able to service any of these levels of debt, they should take the best LRAP program.

[Rigo]

Source, oh oracle?

What's your source though? Since you started this line of conversation the burden should be on you to prove what you said is in fact accurate, especially if its coming out of left field..

[nyu2019maybeplease]

I did what? I haven't said anything. I have no idea if it's true or not (not being a hiring attorney in the PNW, or anywhere). I just don't think "bullshit" is the right way to be discussing things here. Maybe the Midwest is making me soft.

I'll add an argument for Michigan here though, and I'll gladly source it: OP, if you find the level of snark on TLS is...weird, check us out. One of the reasons I picked Michigan over NYU was a sense that it was a place where I could be challenged, but respectfully. It's a lot easier to have conversations about really difficult subjects if you start with the premise that everyone deserves a degree of civility.

Source, oh oracle?

What's your source though? Since you started this line of conversation the burden should be on you to prove what you said is in fact accurate, especially if its coming out of left field..

[Rigo]

Oh shit sorry. I lazily mistook you for michlaw when you called cav oracle and since you're both avatar-less. My bad.

[cavalier1138]

Source, oh oracle? No clue if you're right but let's try to keep this civil. No need for nastiness, everyone's trying to help.

As mentioned, I'm not the one advancing a bullshit claim, so I don't need to provide sources. And providing bullshit information isn't helping anyone. So thanks for the civility lesson, but I don't care. If that poster wants to provide their sources, they're welcome to. They surely don't need a cheering section.

[nyu2019maybeplease]

Out of curiosity, what school do you attend?

Source, oh oracle? No clue if you're right but let's try to keep this civil. No need for nastiness, everyone's trying to help.

As mentioned, I'm not the one advancing a bullshit claim, so I don't need to provide sources. And providing bullshit information isn't helping anyone. So thanks for the civility lesson, but I don't care. If that poster wants to provide their sources, they're welcome to. They surely don't need a cheering section.

[michlaw]

Went to school in Michigan. Work in NYC. Have only visited the PNW. Still think that NYC would be a bit of a culture shock for someone who essentially grew up in Portland and plans to return. Either way NYU is simply not worth 75k more than Michigan.