Just how national are HYS? Forum

[RandyGiles]

Hi everybody! I have some big decisions to make in the coming weeks. Never thought I'd be in this position, but I got pretty lucky this cycle and want some input on the national reach of top 3 schools. I am finding it hard to get a good feeling for how difficult insular/small markets are to crack from these schools. I've gotten into 2/3 of HYS, and true national reach would help me justify PART of the cost difference with lower ranked law schools.

I am hoping for awesome/unicorn PI work out of law school, but still considering biglaw as an option. However, I'm allergic to NYC (not the biggest Cali fan either, but I'd survive). If I thought there was a pretty good chance of making it into something like Seattle biglaw with weak-to-medium ties, I would be pushed slightly in the direction of HYS over schools like Penn and Columbia. Maybe the latter two schools' placement into NYC firms is self-selection entirely, but I'm not sure I trust that's the case. Do I have a golden ticket to my ideal region, or should I recalibrate my expectations?

Here is some more relevant info. Sorry if it seems scattered, and I'll add more when I get time/think of things.

Primary goals: Clerkship (obviously short term); Public Interest (think ACLU impact litigation etc.); academia; international human rights work.

Secondary "goals": Firm work outside of NYC, preferably pacific northwest. If, in my heart, I even kind of aspired to biglaw, and especially NYC biglaw, I'd take the money and run. As it stands, being not a lawyer sounds kinda a lot better than many biglaw lifestyles in terms of being a good fit for me. And, of course, only Yale would pay my loans for being not a lawyer.

Financing: Debtdebtdebt

[UVA2B]

They all have national reach, but if you are shooting for unicorn PI work, HYS is the way to go. Still tough to get, but more likely from those schools and better LIPP/LRAP at those schools to defray costs. Penn and Columbia are not self-selecting into NYC enough to make a claim that they can't place nationally on par with or superior to other T13. But for unicorn PI work, HYS will give you a bump.

[Dcc617]

Hi everybody! I have some big decisions to make in the coming weeks. Never thought I'd be in this position, but I got pretty lucky this cycle and want some input on the national reach of top 3 schools. I am finding it hard to get a good feeling for how difficult insular/small markets are to crack from these schools. I've gotten into 2/3 of HYS, and true national reach would help me justify PART of the cost difference with lower ranked law schools.

I am hoping for awesome/unicorn PI work out of law school, but still considering biglaw as an option. However, I'm allergic to NYC (not the biggest Cali fan either, but I'd survive). If I thought there was a pretty good chance of making it into something like Seattle biglaw with weak-to-medium ties, I would be pushed slightly in the direction of HYS over schools like Penn and Columbia. Maybe the latter two schools' placement into NYC firms is self-selection entirely, but I'm not sure I trust that's the case. Do I have a golden ticket to my ideal region, or should I recalibrate my expectations?

What's the cost difference? What do you mean by "unicorn PI." Where do you want to work?

If you have ties already, then HYS will be a help. If you have no ties, then you still have to establish them for insular markets.

[malleus discentium]

"National reach" is not the same thing as the capacity to enter any market. HYS will get you further (to varying degrees) than the rest of the T14 into any given market. But that is not the same as saying HYS (or even the T14) is the best for getting into any given market. Getting into Seattle, for example, will probably be harder coming from HYS with weak ties than from UW with weak ties. This is true of most insular markets. This is all to say that if you don't know where you want to work, HYS gives you the most flexibility. But you shouldn't be going to law school without at least some concrete ideas of where you want to work because you can't intelligently pick a school without that knowledge.

As for unicorn PI work, the answer is pretty much always HYS (and Y in particular of those).

[banjo]

I interviewed in several small markets at CLS and had a full time offer from one. A lot of smaller market offices hire two types of candidate: excellent grades plus LR from a local law school (ties are still helpful) and decent grades from a top school with strong or medium ties. I don't really think "HYS" vs other top schools makes a big difference. Given the small class size, they'll focus a lot more on personality/fit and your willingness to stick around.

[RandyGiles]

Thanks to all for the input and for pressing me to think about the relevant considerations.

This is all to say that if you don't know where you want to work, HYS gives you the most flexibility. But you shouldn't be going to law school without at least some concrete ideas of where you want to work because you can't intelligently pick a school without that knowledge.

As for unicorn PI work, the answer is pretty much always HYS (and Y in particular of those).

Of HYS, I'll probably pick Y. I will admit I don't know exactly where I want to work, but I don't lack concrete preferences for location. I feel I meet the standard of "at least some concrete ideas" but I do wish I had it more figured out.

I interviewed in several small markets at CLS and had a full time offer from one. A lot of smaller market offices hire two types of candidate: excellent grades plus LR from a local law school (ties are still helpful) and decent grades from a top school with strong or medium ties. I don't really think "HYS" vs other top schools makes a big difference. Given the small class size, they'll focus a lot more on personality/fit and your willingness to stick around.

That's really interesting to hear HYS don't make much of a difference vs other top schools. I guess it makes sense. Part of me felt the small Yale class sizes, at least, would make grads pretty desirable, and firms would be less choosey about ties. Wishful thinking, I know. If I decided that a small market was where I wanted to be by 2L, I hope I'd be convincing enough about my willingness to stick around.

What's the cost difference? What do you mean by "unicorn PI." Where do you want to work?

If you have ties already, then HYS will be a help. If you have no ties, then you still have to establish them for insular markets.

I'll put a poll up and some more relevant info. Part of the problem is I don't know the exact cost difference yet, as I lack need-based aid info. But it'll be a substantial gap.

Right now international human rights work and impact litigation are appealing, but my goals shift with the main consistency being that the hard-to-get jobs are the ones I want most (duh. I know that doesn't make me special, and that I've got lots more research to do). Clerking and the possibility of eventual academia are extremely appealing to me as well. If I stay on track to get the type(s) of job I currently want, location matters less to me. But if I switch gears by 2L and want to work a firm job, being in a non-NYC market is priority 1, and a preference for several small (Seattle/Portland/Denver/Austin) markets is priority number 2. My ties vary from negligible to medium for each.

[RandyGiles]

I added a poll. Appreciate any and all input. I have other scholarships but in light of the offers listed they make little sense.

[KissMyAxe]

I interviewed in several small markets at CLS and had a full time offer from one. A lot of smaller market offices hire two types of candidate: excellent grades plus LR from a local law school (ties are still helpful) and decent grades from a top school with strong or medium ties. I don't really think "HYS" vs other top schools makes a big difference. Given the small class size, they'll focus a lot more on personality/fit and your willingness to stick around.

I completely disagree. I'm the first person to jump on the Hamilton bandwagon when it comes to NYC Biglaw seekers, but this is dumb and unfounded. They're asking about unicorny PI options in smaller markets outside of NYC and California. YLS whips Columbia up and down the floor at that. They're not even playing the same game. HYS make a huge difference in PI, clerkships, and academia, and if those are your goals, it's crazy to go to a NYC Biglaw factory.You gave your own anecdote (and I'm guessing you have ties), and are you in PI or just a law firm. I can name 10 people off the top of my head doing unicorny PI in smaller markets, and could look up far more. And many of these people have no ties (or very weak ones). I will agree that personality is important as well in small public interest organizations.

[lymenheimer]

Never seen this poll/thread before

[banjo]

I interviewed in several small markets at CLS and had a full time offer from one. A lot of smaller market offices hire two types of candidate: excellent grades plus LR from a local law school (ties are still helpful) and decent grades from a top school with strong or medium ties. I don't really think "HYS" vs other top schools makes a big difference. Given the small class size, they'll focus a lot more on personality/fit and your willingness to stick around.

I completely disagree. I'm the first person to jump on the Hamilton bandwagon when it comes to NYC Biglaw seekers, but this is dumb and unfounded. They're asking about unicorny PI options in smaller markets outside of NYC and California. YLS whips Columbia up and down the floor at that. They're not even playing the same game. HYS make a huge difference in PI, clerkships, and academia, and if those are your goals, it's crazy to go to a NYC Biglaw factory.You gave your own anecdote (and I'm guessing you have ties), and are you in PI or just a law firm. I can name 10 people off the top of my head doing unicorny PI in smaller markets, and could look up far more. And many of these people have no ties (or very weak ones). I will agree that personality is important as well in small public interest organizations.

The OP pretty clearly also asked about firm work outside of NYC. CLS puts a lot of people into NYC big law, but it won't hold you back from biglaw satellite offices or midlaw in smaller cities.

[RandyGiles]

For those who are voting Harvard, I'd love to hear the reasoning! Does it's name recognition/bigger alumni network make it a more surefire thing for small-market geographic flexibility, even over Yale?

A big part of me wants it to be true that Columbia or even Penn can get me what I want, where I want for a small fraction of the price. I just have a hard time writing it all off as self-selection into NYC biglaw when I assume many of the same types of people are at Penn, Columbia, and Yale.

One mantra I've seen repeated on here is that, with even a slight interest in academia, one should go to Yale. I definitely have an interest but get the sense it's really hard to do even from Yale. I read one ATL article where David Lat claims 1/3 of his classmates eventually became professors. Is there any good data for backing that up? Obviously the employment data right out of law school points to a much smaller rate, but that would be expected.

Never seen this poll/thread before

Point taken. I guess I hoped the wrinkle of my geographic preferences warranted the thread. I hadn't yet found much on how easy someplace like Yale makes breaking into insular markets. Overall though, it's just one part of my decision and everything mostly boils down to yet another HYS vs money discussion, about which I've read plenty.

[Npret]

I don't even understand the question anymore? Basically you want to know if Yale is worth massive debt because of a possible boost in some job that might be in impact litigation or biglaw in PNW or maybe if someday you want to be a professor and, oh yeah, if I don't want to be a lawyer, Yale will still cover me?

If you don't want to be a lawyer or you aren't sure, don't go.

No, Yale isn't worth (approx) $300,000 of sticker debt at repayment when you can go to Columbia for free.

I am guessing only 0Ls are voting Harvard here.

Info on law professor hiring is the blog the faculty lounge.

[RSN]

There's literally a thread halfway down the page on this from a 0L with the same goals: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=275660

Granted, that's Harvard and not Yale, and there is somewhat more of an argument for turning down the Hamilton for Yale than there is for Harvard, both because Yale is honestly on another level and because COAP is much more generous than LIPP. Frankly Harvard shouldn't even be in the conversation if you're in at Yale.

Also, this concerns me:

"As it stands, being not a lawyer sounds kinda a lot better than many biglaw lifestyles in terms of being a good fit for me."

If you're not sure if you want to be a lawyer at all, biglaw aside, you should think especially hard about taking out $300k of debt to do it, even at Yale.

[nothingtosee]

Serious question:

Why does the fact that a /public interest/ position is more selective make it more attractive to you?

[Nebby]

As an impact litigator from CLS I can assure you it's pretty dumb to pass up a full ride at CCN. Particularly because you're not sure what you even want to do.

[dirac]

For those who are voting Harvard, I'd love to hear the reasoning! Does it's name recognition/bigger alumni network make it a more surefire thing for small-market geographic flexibility, even over Yale?

A big part of me wants it to be true that Columbia or even Penn can get me what I want, where I want for a small fraction of the price. I just have a hard time writing it all off as self-selection into NYC biglaw when I assume many of the same types of people are at Penn, Columbia, and Yale.

One mantra I've seen repeated on here is that, with even a slight interest in academia, one should go to Yale. I definitely have an interest but get the sense it's really hard to do even from Yale. I read one ATL article where David Lat claims 1/3 of his classmates eventually became professors. Is there any good data for backing that up? Obviously the employment data right out of law school points to a much smaller rate, but that would be expected.

Never seen this poll/thread before

Point taken. I guess I hoped the wrinkle of my geographic preferences warranted the thread. I hadn't yet found much on how easy someplace like Yale makes breaking into insular markets. Overall though, it's just one part of my decision and everything mostly boils down to yet another HYS vs money discussion, about which I've read plenty.

I voted for Harvard and I am a 2L here. You are right, I voted for Harvard because of its "name recognition/bigger alumni network make it a more surefire thing for small-market geographic flexibility, even over Yale" Also international reputation and alumni network.

[Npret]

As an impact litigator from CLS I can assure you it's pretty dumb to pass up a full ride at CCN. Particularly because you're not sure what you even want to do.

Maybe OP just wants people to tell him it's ok to go to Yale as it's clear that's what he wants? This doubt of self selection into biglaw from Columbia is strange to me.

[RandyGiles]

Also, this concerns me:

Totally fair. That was meant to highlight my aversion to NYC biglaw through an extreme example. I can't think of anything more ridiculous than going to law school without the intention of being lawyer, even with a scholarship. There's plenty that I should do more homework on, but deciding whether I want to be a lawyer is not a concern for me.

As an impact litigator from CLS I can assure you it's pretty dumb to pass up a full ride at CCN. Particularly because you're not sure what you even want to do.

That's really helpful to hear. For all the talk about the flexibility of the most prestigious degree possible (which might be inflated), there's at least as much to be said for the flexibility of having way less debt. Despite the poll results, the responses are confirming a lot of what pushes me towards taking the money.

[Npret]

Also, this concerns me:

Totally fair. That was meant to highlight my aversion to NYC biglaw through an extreme example. I can't think of anything more ridiculous than going to law school without the intention of being lawyer, even with a scholarship. There's plenty that I should do more homework on, but deciding whether I want to be a lawyer is not a concern for me.

As an impact litigator from CLS I can assure you it's pretty dumb to pass up a full ride at CCN. Particularly because you're not sure what you even want to do.

That's really helpful to hear. For all the talk about the flexibility of the most prestigious degree possible (which might be inflated), there's at least as much to be said for the flexibility of having way less debt. Despite the poll results, the responses are confirming a lot of what pushes me towards taking the money.

I graduated from Columbia years ago with no debt. I wanted biglaw. But I could have taken any job not driven by salary or fear of loan repayment. Other CLS grads have spoken about the biggest career freedom is having no debt.
Really please consider that your best career and overall best life option is to be debt free (or at least less debt.)

I know it's hard to turn down dream schools. I was pushing you in previous posts but $300,000 is a huge amount of money for a piece of paper and other intangibles.

[Nebby]

I don't see a poll but I guarantee no attorney would vote for HYS over a full ride at CCN. Only 0Ls think that's a good decision, as well as goober students currently enrolled at HYS

[RSN]

For those who are voting Harvard, I'd love to hear the reasoning! Does it's name recognition/bigger alumni network make it a more surefire thing for small-market geographic flexibility, even over Yale?

A big part of me wants it to be true that Columbia or even Penn can get me what I want, where I want for a small fraction of the price. I just have a hard time writing it all off as self-selection into NYC biglaw when I assume many of the same types of people are at Penn, Columbia, and Yale.

One mantra I've seen repeated on here is that, with even a slight interest in academia, one should go to Yale. I definitely have an interest but get the sense it's really hard to do even from Yale. I read one ATL article where David Lat claims 1/3 of his classmates eventually became professors. Is there any good data for backing that up? Obviously the employment data right out of law school points to a much smaller rate, but that would be expected.

Never seen this poll/thread before

Point taken. I guess I hoped the wrinkle of my geographic preferences warranted the thread. I hadn't yet found much on how easy someplace like Yale makes breaking into insular markets. Overall though, it's just one part of my decision and everything mostly boils down to yet another HYS vs money discussion, about which I've read plenty.

I voted for Harvard and I am a 2L here. You are right, I voted for Harvard because of its "name recognition/bigger alumni network make it a more surefire thing for small-market geographic flexibility, even over Yale" Also international reputation and alumni network.

This is nonsense, unless you want to work in some places overseas, where anecdotes suggest the Harvard name does carry a bit more weight. In America, Yale > Harvard pretty much every time.

[Nonconsecutive]

As an impact litigator from CLS I can assure you it's pretty dumb to pass up a full ride at CCN. Particularly because you're not sure what you even want to do.

I agree with this 100%. I had S & H and would have told them to eat my tasty biscuits and GTFO, had I had a full ride to CCN (I did not). For comparison I would have done the same thing to Y had I not been a simpleton. And FWIW I had no desire to do Biglaw anywhere, or to be in a large market - yet I'd still take the full ride.

[dirac]

For those who are voting Harvard, I'd love to hear the reasoning! Does it's name recognition/bigger alumni network make it a more surefire thing for small-market geographic flexibility, even over Yale?

A big part of me wants it to be true that Columbia or even Penn can get me what I want, where I want for a small fraction of the price. I just have a hard time writing it all off as self-selection into NYC biglaw when I assume many of the same types of people are at Penn, Columbia, and Yale.

One mantra I've seen repeated on here is that, with even a slight interest in academia, one should go to Yale. I definitely have an interest but get the sense it's really hard to do even from Yale. I read one ATL article where David Lat claims 1/3 of his classmates eventually became professors. Is there any good data for backing that up? Obviously the employment data right out of law school points to a much smaller rate, but that would be expected.

Never seen this poll/thread before

Point taken. I guess I hoped the wrinkle of my geographic preferences warranted the thread. I hadn't yet found much on how easy someplace like Yale makes breaking into insular markets. Overall though, it's just one part of my decision and everything mostly boils down to yet another HYS vs money discussion, about which I've read plenty.

I voted for Harvard and I am a 2L here. You are right, I voted for Harvard because of its "name recognition/bigger alumni network make it a more surefire thing for small-market geographic flexibility, even over Yale" Also international reputation and alumni network.

This is nonsense, unless you want to work in some places overseas, where anecdotes suggest the Harvard name does carry a bit more weight. In America, Yale > Harvard pretty much every time.

Are you sure about the case in America? Especially for your clients who do not know much about US news ranking.

[RSN]

For those who are voting Harvard, I'd love to hear the reasoning! Does it's name recognition/bigger alumni network make it a more surefire thing for small-market geographic flexibility, even over Yale?

A big part of me wants it to be true that Columbia or even Penn can get me what I want, where I want for a small fraction of the price. I just have a hard time writing it all off as self-selection into NYC biglaw when I assume many of the same types of people are at Penn, Columbia, and Yale.

One mantra I've seen repeated on here is that, with even a slight interest in academia, one should go to Yale. I definitely have an interest but get the sense it's really hard to do even from Yale. I read one ATL article where David Lat claims 1/3 of his classmates eventually became professors. Is there any good data for backing that up? Obviously the employment data right out of law school points to a much smaller rate, but that would be expected.

Never seen this poll/thread before

Point taken. I guess I hoped the wrinkle of my geographic preferences warranted the thread. I hadn't yet found much on how easy someplace like Yale makes breaking into insular markets. Overall though, it's just one part of my decision and everything mostly boils down to yet another HYS vs money discussion, about which I've read plenty.

I voted for Harvard and I am a 2L here. You are right, I voted for Harvard because of its "name recognition/bigger alumni network make it a more surefire thing for small-market geographic flexibility, even over Yale" Also international reputation and alumni network.

This is nonsense, unless you want to work in some places overseas, where anecdotes suggest the Harvard name does carry a bit more weight. In America, Yale > Harvard pretty much every time.

Are you sure about the case in America? Especially for your clients who do not know much about US news ranking.

Talking about hiring, not impressing the VP of Strategy at XYZ Corp.

[Nebby]

direc your point is off topic because it's not really related to OP's point