. Forum

[runinthefront]

Disclaimer: Ucla 1L with a biglaw job already secured

You have much better odds of landing a biglaw position in California if you graduate from UCLA than from Cornell. Also, Cornell gets a lot of hate because the logical inference is that, if you chose Cornell, you didn't get into Harvard, penn, Chicago, Columbia, Yale etc.

UCLA is the best law school in LA and lots choose this place for the 'strong regional with money' thing

"You have much better odds of landing a biglaw position in California if you graduate from UCLA than from Cornell." I don't think this is true. You're not accounting for the strong self-selection out of CA biglaw jobs for Cornell students, and you're not accounting for the fact that the odds of a UCLA student getting a biglaw job--CA, NY, or anywhere else--is a good deal lower than 50/50.

"Also, Cornell gets a lot of hate because the logical inference is that, if you chose Cornell, you didn't get into Harvard, penn, Chicago, Columbia, Yale etc." I don't think this is the 'logical inference.' It may be a prevailing thought for some (a thought that doesn't affect Cornell's employment outcomes, I might add), but it's definitely not "logical." Many students go here because Cornell gave more $$.

It's also a weird argument to use in support of going to UCLA, considering most people just assume those students couldn't get into Berkeley/Stanford...or any T-14 for that matter. What a weird post

[Malarkey]

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[Malarkey]

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[Rigo]

Cornell gets a lot of hate because the logical inference is that, if you chose Cornell, you didn't get into Harvard, penn, Chicago, Columbia, Yale etc.

It's also a weird argument to use in support of going to UCLA, considering most people just assume those students couldn't get into Berkeley/Stanford...or any T-14 for that matter. What a weird post

Exactly. What a weird thing to say.

I'd honestly do Cornell at equal cost, OP. It has a much larger safety net.
UCLA is so far off from being justifiable from a cost perspective.

[runinthefront]

Additionally, forgive my 0L ignorance, but barring some connection established before law school (like a relative willing to hire you no matter what), is it even possible to secure a biglaw gig for after you graduate by the middle of spring semester in your first year? That seems very early.

[edited for grammar and clarification]

Many biglaw firms will give 1L summer associate positions to students who have great first-semester grades and/or are diverse. These positions usually come with a soft guarantee of a 2L SA ("summer associate" position), and 2L SAs typically lead to post-grad employment, barring a severe turn of the economy or poor work product by the student.

[Toni V]

Chances are better than fair that a number of the most influential partners will be Ivy grads. That’s why I would opt for Cornell.

[Malarkey]

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[ambrajdurbra131313]

So, I was in practically the same situation a few years ago and chose the west coast option just because I couldn't tell how much of Cornell's NY placement was self-selection, wanted to be near my family, and was of the personal belief that I could predict how I would perform.

I think it just comes down to whether you really want biglaw- in which case it is Cornell by a mile- or if working in CA is more important to you; obviously, a big part of this is how risk adverse you are as well

Totally, that's how I'm viewing it as well. I take it you're happy with your decision? Do you have any insight about current students or graduates struggling to find employment? Or are things pretty peachy?

Yep, thankfully, everything worked out for me exactly as I hoped (at USC not UCLA though); based off of my friend's outcomes, it seems like if you're a little above median and can interview well you have a good shot at biglaw, if you are below median and interview very well you at least have a puncher's chance, and if you're well above median you'll get biglaw unless you're a very subpar interviewer.

Pretty much every top LA firm sets a handful of spots aside for USC and UCLA grads- the problem is that those "reserved" spots are usually pretty small because of small class sizes relative to NY

FWIW- I don't agree at all with people assuming someone goes to Cornell because they couldn't get into a better school- I narrowed down my school choices based on the ones that gave me full/close to full scholarships and eliminated my CCN options right away because of that; no one is dumb enough to think there aren't a bunch of Cornell kids that turn down Harvard every year because Cornell aligns better with their goals

[Itiswritten]

Disclaimer: Ucla 1L with a biglaw job already secured

You have much better odds of landing a biglaw position in California if you graduate from UCLA than from Cornell. Also, Cornell gets a lot of hate because the logical inference is that, if you chose Cornell, you didn't get into Harvard, penn, Chicago, Columbia, Yale etc.

UCLA is the best law school in LA and lots choose this place for the 'strong regional with money' thing

"You have much better odds of landing a biglaw position in California if you graduate from UCLA than from Cornell." I don't think this is true. You're not accounting for the strong self-selection out of CA biglaw jobs for Cornell students, and you're not accounting for the fact that the odds of a UCLA student getting a biglaw job--CA, NY, or anywhere else--is a good deal lower than 50/50.

"Also, Cornell gets a lot of hate because the logical inference is that, if you chose Cornell, you didn't get into Harvard, penn, Chicago, Columbia, Yale etc." I don't think this is the 'logical inference.' It may be a prevailing thought for some (a thought that doesn't affect Cornell's employment outcomes, I might add), but it's definitely not "logical." Many students go here because Cornell gave more $$.

It's also a weird argument to use in support of going to UCLA, considering most people just assume those students couldn't get into Berkeley/Stanford...or any T-14 for that matter. What a weird post

Additionally, forgive my 0L ignorance, but barring some connection established before law school (like a relative willing to hire you no matter what), is it even possible to secure a biglaw gig for after you graduate by the middle of spring semester in your first year? That seems very early.

[edited for grammar and clarification]

First, to everyone from Cornell posting on this thread, I didn't mean to attack you guys. So let me backpedal a bit- Cornell is great- if you want to stay on the east coast. But you'll be competing for jobs in a pool that will be saturated with students from Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Penn, NYU. Fill in the blanks on what that means for you personally.

At UCLA biglaw is by no means guaranteed, but it's considered the strongest law school in Los Angeles, with the best placement in Los Angeles. So if you want LA big law, it gives you an excellent shot (if you have the grades).

Regarding the 1L SA position- first, thank you. It's an "open offer" type thing (at least, thats how the hiring partner explained it to me). Basically they take you on for a summer, and if you do a good job, they'll re-offer you to come back the next summer. If you come back 2L and do well, they will offer you full-time. So yes, it's quite early, and there are hardly any positions available (relative to public interest positions). I think about 14 students at UCLA end up with a 1L biglaw firm job.

Most 1L positions hire you based on 1st semester grades and most positions are 'diversity' positions. Now, I'm not diverse in a traditional sense. Straight white male. But I hustled hard, interviewed well and got lucky. I was rejected by 18 firms before I landed my position and my career services advisor told me I was crazy for trying. So I think my stars aligned, and my balls were bigger than my brain. In other words, as much as I wish I could tell you I controlled my outcome, I could've just as easily done the same thing,(hustled, networked, cold called, applied, rinse, repeat) and ended up with nothing. I think that's why people usually advice 1L to stay away from biglaw until OCI

[Itiswritten]

So, I was in practically the same situation a few years ago and chose the west coast option just because I couldn't tell how much of Cornell's NY placement was self-selection, wanted to be near my family, and was of the personal belief that I could predict how I would perform.

I think it just comes down to whether you really want biglaw- in which case it is Cornell by a mile- or if working in CA is more important to you; obviously, a big part of this is how risk adverse you are as well

Totally, that's how I'm viewing it as well. I take it you're happy with your decision? Do you have any insight about current students or graduates struggling to find employment? Or are things pretty peachy?

Yep, thankfully, everything worked out for me exactly as I hoped (at USC not UCLA though); based off of my friend's outcomes, it seems like if you're a little above median and can interview well you have a good shot at biglaw, if you are below median and interview very well you at least have a puncher's chance, and if you're well above median you'll get biglaw unless you're a very subpar interviewer.

Pretty much every top LA firm sets a handful of spots aside for USC and UCLA grads- the problem is that those "reserved" spots are usually pretty small because of small class sizes relative to NY

FWIW- I don't agree at all with people assuming someone goes to Cornell because they couldn't get into a better school- I narrowed down my school choices based on the ones that gave me full/close to full scholarships and eliminated my CCN options right away because of that; no one is dumb enough to think there aren't a bunch of Cornell kids that turn down Harvard every year because Cornell aligns better with their goals

I categorically disagree that there are even a handful of Cornell kids that turn down Harvard because 'Cornell aligns better with their goals'. That's total rubbish.

[Itiswritten]

Chances are better than fair that a number of the most influential partners will be Ivy grads. That’s why I would opt for Cornell.

Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Penn. Cornell doesn't count as an Ivy League in any way outside of name and history. Everyone knows it, and the statistics are clear. Cornell is a peer school with UCLA and anyone who thinks otherwise is pretentiously clinging on to the 'Ivy League' name with their head in the sand.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... where.html

^ As you can see above UCLA has 50 more partners nationally than Cornell. Even UC-Hastings has more partners than Cornell.

I'm not saying UCLA is the best law school in the world. If I got into Harvard I would've gone there. I didn't apply to Yale or stanford but got into Chicago and Columbia. No sour grapes, because I got into Cornell too. With cash. It just doesn't make sense to go and come to the west coast.

[Rigo]

^ As you can see above UCLA has 50 more partners nationally than Cornell. Even UC-Hastings has more partners than Cornell.

UCLA has always had over a 50% bigger class size than Cornell, so this metric is unfair.

Also why should anyone care about the number of partner alumni? It doesn't change the chances of landing biglaw.

[candidlatke]

Regarding the 1L SA position- first, thank you. It's an "open offer" type thing (at least, thats how the hiring partner explained it to me). Basically they take you on for a summer, and if you do a good job, they'll re-offer you to come back the next summer. If you come back 2L and do well, they will offer you full-time. So yes, it's quite early, and there are hardly any positions available (relative to public interest positions). I think about 14 students at UCLA end up with a 1L biglaw firm job.

Most 1L positions hire you based on 1st semester grades and most positions are 'diversity' positions. Now, I'm not diverse in a traditional sense. Straight white male. But I hustled hard, interviewed well and got lucky. I was rejected by 18 firms before I landed my position and my career services advisor told me I was crazy for trying. So I think my stars aligned, and my balls were bigger than my brain. In other words, as much as I wish I could tell you I controlled my outcome, I could've just as easily done the same thing,(hustled, networked, cold called, applied, rinse, repeat) and ended up with nothing. I think that's why people usually advice 1L to stay away from biglaw until OCI

i think this is a little over the top self gratifying.

that's pretty par for 1L positions and while they are a lot harder to get than standard 2L oci positions & there are far more applicants than available spots, they're by no means unobtainable and i find it hard to believe that your cso told you that you were "crazy" for trying. most kids at my school gunned for one too and a portion of the population got them, a lot of whom were not URM or female, myself included. source: 1L in the same school bracket [UT/G/UCLA/Vandy]. all that matters really is your 1L fall grades and luck

op you go to cornell you'll have the same options, except probably in more markets and with a generally greater safety net in terms of GPA (in california you'll probs be at around the same position, maybe with slightly more forgiving gpa reqs)

[ambrajdurbra131313]

So, I was in practically the same situation a few years ago and chose the west coast option just because I couldn't tell how much of Cornell's NY placement was self-selection, wanted to be near my family, and was of the personal belief that I could predict how I would perform.

I think it just comes down to whether you really want biglaw- in which case it is Cornell by a mile- or if working in CA is more important to you; obviously, a big part of this is how risk adverse you are as well

Totally, that's how I'm viewing it as well. I take it you're happy with your decision? Do you have any insight about current students or graduates struggling to find employment? Or are things pretty peachy?

Yep, thankfully, everything worked out for me exactly as I hoped (at USC not UCLA though); based off of my friend's outcomes, it seems like if you're a little above median and can interview well you have a good shot at biglaw, if you are below median and interview very well you at least have a puncher's chance, and if you're well above median you'll get biglaw unless you're a very subpar interviewer.

Pretty much every top LA firm sets a handful of spots aside for USC and UCLA grads- the problem is that those "reserved" spots are usually pretty small because of small class sizes relative to NY

FWIW- I don't agree at all with people assuming someone goes to Cornell because they couldn't get into a better school- I narrowed down my school choices based on the ones that gave me full/close to full scholarships and eliminated my CCN options right away because of that; no one is dumb enough to think there aren't a bunch of Cornell kids that turn down Harvard every year because Cornell aligns better with their goals

I categorically disagree that there are even a handful of Cornell kids that turn down Harvard because 'Cornell aligns better with their goals'. That's total rubbish.

Well, in my class, I personally knew 4 people that turned down H/S for USC, which I would consider a handful- I would think Cornell would be in the double digits, which would be a "bunch" to me

[curry1]

So, I was in practically the same situation a few years ago and chose the west coast option just because I couldn't tell how much of Cornell's NY placement was self-selection, wanted to be near my family, and was of the personal belief that I could predict how I would perform.

I think it just comes down to whether you really want biglaw- in which case it is Cornell by a mile- or if working in CA is more important to you; obviously, a big part of this is how risk adverse you are as well

Totally, that's how I'm viewing it as well. I take it you're happy with your decision? Do you have any insight about current students or graduates struggling to find employment? Or are things pretty peachy?

Yep, thankfully, everything worked out for me exactly as I hoped (at USC not UCLA though); based off of my friend's outcomes, it seems like if you're a little above median and can interview well you have a good shot at biglaw, if you are below median and interview very well you at least have a puncher's chance, and if you're well above median you'll get biglaw unless you're a very subpar interviewer.

Pretty much every top LA firm sets a handful of spots aside for USC and UCLA grads- the problem is that those "reserved" spots are usually pretty small because of small class sizes relative to NY

FWIW- I don't agree at all with people assuming someone goes to Cornell because they couldn't get into a better school- I narrowed down my school choices based on the ones that gave me full/close to full scholarships and eliminated my CCN options right away because of that; no one is dumb enough to think there aren't a bunch of Cornell kids that turn down Harvard every year because Cornell aligns better with their goals

I categorically disagree that there are even a handful of Cornell kids that turn down Harvard because 'Cornell aligns better with their goals'. That's total rubbish.

Well, in my class, I personally knew 4 people that turned down H/S for USC, which I would consider a handful- I would think Cornell would be in the double digits, which would be a "bunch" to me

statistically speaking, your classmates are probably lying. It would be surprising if even 1 person in a given USC class turned down H/S. People lie about stuff like this all the time.

[runinthefront]

First, to everyone from Cornell posting on this thread, I didn't mean to attack you guys. So let me backpedal a bit- Cornell is great- if you want to stay on the east coast. But you'll be competing for jobs in a pool that will be saturated with students from Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Penn, NYU. Fill in the blanks on what that means for you personally.

I don't understand this point, though. Your original argument was lobbying for UCLA. The fact is that even on the West Coast with a UCLA degree, you're still competing with the entire T13, Cornell included. And I don't think biglaw employers in CA value a UCLA degree (from a person with CA ties) more than a Cornell one.

At UCLA biglaw is by no means guaranteed, but it's considered the strongest law school in Los Angeles, with the best placement in Los Angeles. So if you want LA big law, it gives you an excellent shot (if you have the grades).

I agree: UCLA is arguably the strongest law school in the city of Los Angeles, and it places the best out of all the other LA law schools. But (a) I don't know why you're confining your argument to LA instead of the entire state of California; and (b) I don't think a UCLA student is in any better position at landing a biglaw job in LA (or anywhere else in CA) than a t13 student with ties to LA. I think that's especially true where the OCI screener is not a UCLA grad.

Cornell is a peer school with UCLA and anyone who thinks otherwise is pretentiously clinging on to the 'Ivy League' name with their head in the sand.

I don't think most people outside of LA think Cornell and UCLA are peer schools, notwithstanding LSAT/GPA medians. Definitely USC/Vandy/GULC/UT. But it doesn't matter what anyone thinks! You have a defensible opinion, and you're more than entitled to it.

I categorically disagree that there are even a handful of Cornell kids that turn down Harvard because 'Cornell aligns better with their goals'. That's total rubbish.

I agree. There are many students at Cornell who took the money instead of going to NYU, Columbia, and (although I only know of a few in my class year) Chicago. I haven't heard of anyone 'taking the money' at Cornell over H, though i'm sure it's possible, especially given that this is not a discussion that happens on campus often. But I'd doubt it, and I actually lol'd when I read the post.

[UVA2B]

TL:DR

If Biglaw>CA law: Cornell
If CA law>Biglaw: UCLA
If CA law=Biglaw: quibble over differences in national reach and placement power in LA. Make a decision if a breeze ever pushes you off the fence.

[candidlatke]

surprised at some of the posters here expressing disbelief at people taking the money over h/s when people on here categorically advise students to take a lower t14 with $$$ over hys, especially if they're biglaw inclined. just look at any of the threads where people are choosing between the ideal options and almost always people suggest to take the money and run.

[runinthefront]

surprised at some of the posters here expressing disbelief at people taking the money over h/s when people on here categorically advise students to take a lower t14 with $$$ over hys, especially if they're biglaw inclined. just look at any of the threads where people are choosing between the ideal options and almost always people suggest to take the money and run.

I'm a Cornell 3L. For the class of 2017, scholarship awards maxed out at 150k, which didn't cover full tuition. Thus, I think those with 3.9/173s in 2014 probably could've nabbed equal money (or at least comparable) from places like Duke and UVA, and students would generally migrate there. I think there's a greater chance that the class of 2018/19 students have some HYS admitees for sure, as Cornell literally doubled the scholarship pot between 17 and 18, and will probably throw (or is throwing) money out again this cycle.

But I was mainly speaking to my cycle, which occurred before started throwing money. very few received 150k, which didn't cover the full tuition, and it was more common for students to top out at 120k. Prior to matriculating here and falling in love with the school, If I were looking at a scholarship covering 85% tuition at Cornell vs 75% tuition at NU (or even 70%), I would've chosen NU. Chicago beats Ithaca.

My b for the confusion

[tyrant_flycatcher]

I categorically disagree that there are even a handful of Cornell kids that turn down Harvard because 'Cornell aligns better with their goals'. That's total rubbish.

I agree. There are many students at Cornell who took the money instead of going to NYU, Columbia, and (although I only know of a few in my class year) Chicago. I haven't heard of anyone 'taking the money' at Cornell over H, though i'm sure it's possible, especially given that this is not a discussion that happens on campus often. But I'd doubt it, and I actually lol'd when I read the post.

I know one person in the c/o 2017 who took Cornell over H. Given that I've talked to next to no one about what schools they were accepted to, I wouldn't be shocked if there are two or three other 3Ls who got into H but are also masochists and therefore chose to live in Ithaca. But you're right. The best schools most Cornell students get into is CCN.

[Itiswritten]

Regarding the 1L SA position- first, thank you. It's an "open offer" type thing (at least, thats how the hiring partner explained it to me). Basically they take you on for a summer, and if you do a good job, they'll re-offer you to come back the next summer. If you come back 2L and do well, they will offer you full-time. So yes, it's quite early, and there are hardly any positions available (relative to public interest positions). I think about 14 students at UCLA end up with a 1L biglaw firm job.

Most 1L positions hire you based on 1st semester grades and most positions are 'diversity' positions. Now, I'm not diverse in a traditional sense. Straight white male. But I hustled hard, interviewed well and got lucky. I was rejected by 18 firms before I landed my position and my career services advisor told me I was crazy for trying. So I think my stars aligned, and my balls were bigger than my brain. In other words, as much as I wish I could tell you I controlled my outcome, I could've just as easily done the same thing,(hustled, networked, cold called, applied, rinse, repeat) and ended up with nothing. I think that's why people usually advice 1L to stay away from biglaw until OCI

i think this is a little over the top self gratifying.

that's pretty par for 1L positions and while they are a lot harder to get than standard 2L oci positions & there are far more applicants than available spots, they're by no means unobtainable and i find it hard to believe that your cso told you that you were "crazy" for trying. most kids at my school gunned for one too and a portion of the population got them, a lot of whom were not URM or female, myself included. source: 1L in the same school bracket [UT/G/UCLA/Vandy]. all that matters really is your 1L fall grades and luck

op you go to cornell you'll have the same options, except probably in more markets and with a generally greater safety net in terms of GPA (in california you'll probs be at around the same position, maybe with slightly more forgiving gpa reqs)

Latham had 8 spots nationally for 1600 applicants.

Not self-gratifying. Just saying that my experience is not the norm from what I've been told.

And you're right, CSO didn't tell me directly I was crazy. But I have an email explicitly telling me "Itiswritten, you'd be far better directing your efforts elsewhere. Let's not get caught up in the idea of biglaw for 1L summer."

So you're telling me you're a straight white male who landed 1L biglaw, and yet you think you're the norm? We are pretty damn rare, statistically speaking. At UCLA only 12-14 kids get 1L biglaw per year. Out of a class of like 350. And 80% get those from diversity positions.

Edit: Sounds like you're from UT. Texas is way different than LA/SoCal for 1L. Texas has a disproprotionate amount of 1L SA spots, (according to this year's diversity 1L summer associate thread, and LCLD's website).

By no means am I trying to be self gratfitying. To the contrary, I attribute my position to dumb luck.

[Rigo]

If only we could get a median UCLA 2L to chime in.
It seems you're an anomaly so OP should take your experience with a grain of salt. I mean, you were going super overboard with the UCLA raving anyways so it undercut your objective a bit before even learning about your 1L SA.

[Rigo]

The main thing here is a difference in median outcomes between UCLA and Cornell.
Pick your priorities and risk v. geographic tolerance, and then choose.

[Itiswritten]

I categorically disagree that there are even a handful of Cornell kids that turn down Harvard because 'Cornell aligns better with their goals'. That's total rubbish.

I agree. There are many students at Cornell who took the money instead of going to NYU, Columbia, and (although I only know of a few in my class year) Chicago. I haven't heard of anyone 'taking the money' at Cornell over H, though i'm sure it's possible, especially given that this is not a discussion that happens on campus often. But I'd doubt it, and I actually lol'd when I read the post.

I know one person in the c/o 2017 who took Cornell over H. Given that I've talked to next to no one about what schools they were accepted to, I wouldn't be shocked if there are two or three other 3Ls who got into H but are also masochists and therefore chose to live in Ithaca. But you're right. The best schools most Cornell students get into is CCN.

I want to reiterate that Cornell is an awesome law school (this is substantiated by the numbers) and anyone who gets in or choses to go there should be proud. There is no shame in recognizing that it's unlikely for a student to choose Cornell over H. I say the same about UCLA- I don't know a single person, anecdotally or otherwise, who chose UCLA over H. Yet I think UCLA, like cornell, is an excellent school. Just not on par with H at the moment.

[Itiswritten]

If only we could get a median UCLA 2L to chime in.
It seems you're an anomaly so OP should take your experience with a grain of salt. I mean, you were going super overboard with the UCLA raving anyways so it undercut your objective a bit before even learning about your 1L SA.

I don't disagree with this. I love UCLA and have seen some things firsthand that the numbers don't reflect (like how deep the alumni connection is in SoCal). I am biased for sure.

What I can say objectively to help OP is this- I turned down Columbia at sticker, Chicago with 15k, Berkeley with 35k and Georgetown with 50k (also turned down UVA, Duke, Cornell, Northwestern)
In order to go to UCLA with ~100k. The reasons for me were geographic preference and biglaw placement (in addition to the financials).

So far I do not regret my decision.