Harvard vs. Chicago Forum

[sadie2law]

Hey all,

I'm sure I'm not the first to ask this, but I could use advice for my situation. I've been accepted to both Harvard and Chicago and I'm having trouble deciding where I stand.

Ultimately I know that I want to end up back in DC after school, which is why almost everywhere else I applied is on the East Coast. Boston is not in DC, but it's a train ride away and obviously Harvard has major connections in DC.

I've never particularly wanted to live in Chicago, and Chicago is so so far from the East Coast, but there are a lot of things about the school that are more alluring to me. The small class size, the close engagement between students and professors, the quarter system, the socratic style classes, and of course, the possibility of scholarship. I still haven't heard back from UChicago about merit or need money nor from Harvard about aid -- so I'm not ready to factor that in yet.

But considering Harvard v. Chicago at sticker v. sticker or even Harvard at sticker v. Chicago with some money, does anyone have any insight?

It feels hard to say no to Harvard, to stray away from the East Coast, and to pick Chicago over Boston, but it feels like Chicago might be worth it for the school. I'd love outside opinions.

Thanks all!

[UVA2B]

This is likely premature until you have aid packages from the two schools.

That being said, the calculus doesn't change all that much in this decision. When you say you want DC, are you talking private firm work, federal government, or something else? What type of law do you see practicing for your career?

First and foremost, you need aid packages to make this decision. Chicago at significant discount beats Harvard at sticker every time, but when costs are more equal, it becomes about goals.

In your case, the "living in a place you're not interested in" is unimportant for your ultimate decision. Chicago can make sense for you.

Can you rank these considerations in this decision?
1. Geography
2. Type of job
3. Level of debt
4. What will you do as a fallback?

ETA: this is almost recklessly reductionist, and I realize that. Sorry if I missed critical distinctions for this decision.

[curry1]

Hey all,

I'm sure I'm not the first to ask this, but I could use advice for my situation. I've been accepted to both Harvard and Chicago and I'm having trouble deciding where I stand.

Ultimately I know that I want to end up back in DC after school, which is why almost everywhere else I applied is on the East Coast. Boston is not in DC, but it's a train ride away and obviously Harvard has major connections in DC.

I've never particularly wanted to live in Chicago, and Chicago is so so far from the East Coast, but there are a lot of things about the school that are more alluring to me. The small class size, the close engagement between students and professors, the quarter system, the socratic style classes, and of course, the possibility of scholarship. I still haven't heard back from UChicago about merit or need money nor from Harvard about aid -- so I'm not ready to factor that in yet.

But considering Harvard v. Chicago at sticker v. sticker or even Harvard at sticker v. Chicago with some money, does anyone have any insight?

It feels hard to say no to Harvard, to stray away from the East Coast, and to pick Chicago over Boston, but it feels like Chicago might be worth it for the school. I'd love outside opinions.

Thanks all!

this is really odd, boston is like a ~7 hour train ride from DC. Realistically you'll be flying, which makes it effectively the same distance from DC as Chicago. I don't think anyone could honestly say that Chicago is super far from the east coast, your post comes off as a bit provincial. Come back when you have a clearer picture on money.

[Nebby]

Ultimately I know that I want to end up back in DC after school, which is why almost everywhere else I applied is on the East Coast. Boston is not in DC, but it's a train ride away and obviously Harvard has major connections in DC.

I've never particularly wanted to live in Chicago, and Chicago is so so far from the East Coast, but there are a lot of things about the school that are more alluring to me. The small class size, the close engagement between students and professors, the quarter system, the socratic style classes, and of course, the possibility of scholarship. I still haven't heard back from UChicago about merit or need money nor from Harvard about aid -- so I'm not ready to factor that in yet.

But considering Harvard v. Chicago at sticker v. sticker or even Harvard at sticker v. Chicago with some money, does anyone have any insight?

It feels hard to say no to Harvard, to stray away from the East Coast, and to pick Chicago over Boston, but it feels like Chicago might be worth it for the school. I'd love outside opinions.

Thanks all!

The bolded don't help you get jobs so don't put too much weight on those things. Think of law school like a job training program and not an educational experience. If Chicago gives you money, go there. You can get a job in DC from Chicago. Harvard makes it a bit easier to get one there, though.

[Justtrying2help]

One thing you do not realize before you attend law school is the reverence that employers and your law professors give HYS. Unless you are looking at a full tuition plus stipend scholarship at a t-13 school, choose HYS for your career's sake. Its a good business decision that gives you instant credibility before people even look at your resume. At 2 firms I met with at open houses (market rate firms) and later interviewed with stated that if a Harvard Law resume landed on their desk they'd immediately fly them down for an interview and offer them a job on the spot if the applicant wasn't crazy or an absolute asshole. Grades be damned. I know this is anecdotal but the message was clear when I spoke to others in hiring capacities in the biglaw industry. Knowing what I know about law school and hiring now, the more it seems that for most applicants should be t-6 or bust instead of t-13 or bust. Its a bloodbath out there for 1/4 to 1/3 of people. Granted you are in a good position, but I would recommend that you give yourself the best platform to start off your career.

[Redfactor]

One thing you do not realize before you attend law school is the reverence that employers and your law professors give HYS. Unless you are looking at a full tuition plus stipend scholarship at a t-13 school, choose HYS for your career's sake. Its a good business decision that gives you instant credibility before people even look at your resume. At 2 firms I met with at open houses (market rate firms) and later interviewed with stated that if a Harvard Law resume landed on their desk they'd immediately fly them down for an interview and offer them a job on the spot if the applicant wasn't crazy or an absolute asshole. Grades be damned. I know this is anecdotal but the message was clear when I spoke to others in hiring capacities in the biglaw industry. Knowing what I know about law school and hiring now, the more it seems that for most applicants should be t-6 or bust instead of t-13 or bust. Its a bloodbath out there for 1/4 to 1/3 of people. Granted you are in a good position, but I would recommend that you give yourself the best platform to start off your career.

No.

[cavalier1138]

One thing you do not realize before you attend law school is the reverence that employers and your law professors give HYS. Unless you are looking at a full tuition plus stipend scholarship at a t-13 school, choose HYS for your career's sake. Its a good business decision that gives you instant credibility before people even look at your resume. At 2 firms I met with at open houses (market rate firms) and later interviewed with stated that if a Harvard Law resume landed on their desk they'd immediately fly them down for an interview and offer them a job on the spot if the applicant wasn't crazy or an absolute asshole. Grades be damned. I know this is anecdotal but the message was clear when I spoke to others in hiring capacities in the biglaw industry. Knowing what I know about law school and hiring now, the more it seems that for most applicants should be t-6 or bust instead of t-13 or bust. Its a bloodbath out there for 1/4 to 1/3 of people. Granted you are in a good position, but I would recommend that you give yourself the best platform to start off your career.

Wrong. Try again.

[Nebby]

One thing you do not realize before you attend law school is the reverence that employers and your law professors give HYS. Unless you are looking at a full tuition plus stipend scholarship at a t-13 school, choose HYS for your career's sake. Its a good business decision that gives you instant credibility before people even look at your resume. At 2 firms I met with at open houses (market rate firms) and later interviewed with stated that if a Harvard Law resume landed on their desk they'd immediately fly them down for an interview and offer them a job on the spot if the applicant wasn't crazy or an absolute asshole. Grades be damned. I know this is anecdotal but the message was clear when I spoke to others in hiring capacities in the biglaw industry. Knowing what I know about law school and hiring now, the more it seems that for most applicants should be t-6 or bust instead of t-13 or bust. Its a bloodbath out there for 1/4 to 1/3 of people. Granted you are in a good position, but I would recommend that you give yourself the best platform to start off your career.

No.

[jbagelboy]

One thing you do not realize before you attend law school is the reverence that employers and your law professors give HYS. Unless you are looking at a full tuition plus stipend scholarship at a t-13 school, choose HYS for your career's sake. Its a good business decision that gives you instant credibility before people even look at your resume. At 2 firms I met with at open houses (market rate firms) and later interviewed with stated that if a Harvard Law resume landed on their desk they'd immediately fly them down for an interview and offer them a job on the spot if the applicant wasn't crazy or an absolute asshole. Grades be damned. I know this is anecdotal but the message was clear when I spoke to others in hiring capacities in the biglaw industry. Knowing what I know about law school and hiring now, the more it seems that for most applicants should be t-6 or bust instead of t-13 or bust. Its a bloodbath out there for 1/4 to 1/3 of people. Granted you are in a good position, but I would recommend that you give yourself the best platform to start off your career.

As the previous 3 posts indicate, this is total mythology. No one outside of these forums really talks about law schools in three letter acronyms ("HYS"). There's likely a greater difference in recruiting standards between Yale and Harvard than Harvard and Chicago.

that being said: at equal cost, I would go to HLS in your circumstances. I doubt it will be equal cost, though.

[dirac]

One thing you do not realize before you attend law school is the reverence that employers and your law professors give HYS. Unless you are looking at a full tuition plus stipend scholarship at a t-13 school, choose HYS for your career's sake. Its a good business decision that gives you instant credibility before people even look at your resume. At 2 firms I met with at open houses (market rate firms) and later interviewed with stated that if a Harvard Law resume landed on their desk they'd immediately fly them down for an interview and offer them a job on the spot if the applicant wasn't crazy or an absolute asshole. Grades be damned. I know this is anecdotal but the message was clear when I spoke to others in hiring capacities in the biglaw industry. Knowing what I know about law school and hiring now, the more it seems that for most applicants should be t-6 or bust instead of t-13 or bust. Its a bloodbath out there for 1/4 to 1/3 of people. Granted you are in a good position, but I would recommend that you give yourself the best platform to start off your career.

I agree.

[dirac]

Hey all,

I'm sure I'm not the first to ask this, but I could use advice for my situation. I've been accepted to both Harvard and Chicago and I'm having trouble deciding where I stand.

Ultimately I know that I want to end up back in DC after school, which is why almost everywhere else I applied is on the East Coast. Boston is not in DC, but it's a train ride away and obviously Harvard has major connections in DC.

I've never particularly wanted to live in Chicago, and Chicago is so so far from the East Coast, but there are a lot of things about the school that are more alluring to me. The small class size, the close engagement between students and professors, the quarter system, the socratic style classes, and of course, the possibility of scholarship. I still haven't heard back from UChicago about merit or need money nor from Harvard about aid -- so I'm not ready to factor that in yet.

But considering Harvard v. Chicago at sticker v. sticker or even Harvard at sticker v. Chicago with some money, does anyone have any insight?

It feels hard to say no to Harvard, to stray away from the East Coast, and to pick Chicago over Boston, but it feels like Chicago might be worth it for the school. I'd love outside opinions.

Thanks all!

Ruby beats Harvard at sticker. But Harvard at sticker beats half tuition discount at Chicago.

[cavalier1138]

Ruby beats Harvard at sticker. But Harvard at sticker beats half tuition discount at Chicago.

Because...?

[ponderingmeerkat]

Ruby beats Harvard at sticker. But Harvard at sticker beats half tuition discount at Chicago.

Because...?

Because dat preftige son! Oh and access to the Harvard club.

Really though, Dirac, terrible advice. I'm not entirely sure what kind of sad, prole-ish law firms

is referring to, but no law firm OP "should" be interviewing with is going to be overly awed by Harvard credentials (especially compared side-by-side to near-equivalent Chicago credentials).

As a matter of fact, there's a life lesson in there: if you're ever in a situation where people are expressing awe at your background (especially in your mid-20s), you're either being bullshitted and taking the bait, or you're not setting your sights high enough.

This also applies to situations beyond employment opportunities. I'll leave it at that.

[shadowfax]

For equal money there should be no argument. Harvard.

Harvard pumps out 560 top flight graduates every year, year after year. They all get good jobs. The network that creates is beyond compare.

Just look at today for example. Anecdotal I know but I have the news on in the background. Theodore David Chuang the Federal Judge in Maryland who ruled against the travel ban. U.S. District Judge Derrick Watson in Hawaii who did the same but even better. Adan Schiff who is leading the charge against the absurd wiretapping claims. Just to name a few that have mentioned in the last 10 minutes.

Chicago is an amazing school. Harvard is a powerhouse.

[big_willy_style_333]

For equal money there should be no argument. Harvard.

Harvard pumps out 560 top flight graduates every year, year after year. They all get good jobs. The network that creates in beyond compare.

Just look at today for example. Anecdotal I know but I have the news on in the background. Theodore David Chuang the Federal Judge in Maryland who ruled against the travel ban. U.S. District Judge Derrick Watson in Hawaii who did the same but even better. Adan Schiff who is leading the charge against the absurd wiretapping claims. Just to name a few that have mentioned in the last 10 minutes.

Chicago is an amazing school. Harvard is a powerhouse.

I wouldn't assume that more graduates = better network. If you have 559 classmates, you likely feel less connected to most of them than you would if you only had 179. I would imagine that alumni of smaller schools actually care more about hiring other alumni of their alma mater than do alumni of larger schools. Having a larger class size certainly helps with brand name since more graduates means a larger chance that some of them are doing cool things, but I don't think you can say that the network is better simply because there are more people who are technically affiliated with it.

[dirac]

Ruby beats Harvard at sticker. But Harvard at sticker beats half tuition discount at Chicago.

Because...?

Because dat preftige son! Oh and access to the Harvard club.

Really though, Dirac, terrible advice. I'm not entirely sure what kind of sad, prole-ish law firms

is referring to, but no law firm OP "should" be interviewing with is going to be overly awed by Harvard credentials (especially compared side-by-side to near-equivalent Chicago credentials).

Nope. Because of the other excellent schools of Harvard, e.g. Kennedy, HBS, etc. In addition, because of the strong alumni network and all the awesome opportunities (e.g. SCOTUS clerkships, Wachtell Lipton, William Connolly, etc.), especially true for people who would love to work in DC.

[shadowfax]

For equal money there should be no argument. Harvard.

Harvard pumps out 560 top flight graduates every year, year after year. They all get good jobs. The network that creates in beyond compare.

Just look at today for example. Anecdotal I know but I have the news on in the background. Theodore David Chuang the Federal Judge in Maryland who ruled against the travel ban. U.S. District Judge Derrick Watson in Hawaii who did the same but even better. Adan Schiff who is leading the charge against the absurd wiretapping claims. Just to name a few that have mentioned in the last 10 minutes.

Chicago is an amazing school. Harvard is a powerhouse.

I wouldn't assume that more graduates = better network. If you have 559 classmates, you likely feel less connected to most of them than you would if you only had 179. I would imagine that alumni of smaller schools actually care more about hiring other alumni of their alma mater than do alumni of larger schools. Having a larger class size certainly helps with brand name since more graduates means a larger chance that some of them are doing cool things, but I don't think you can say that the network is better simply because there are more people who are technically affiliated with it.

There is some logic to your argument that Harvard agrees with. In an effort to give the class a smaller feel 1 L's are broken up into sections. A significant number of efforts and events provide meaningful melding opportunities. It works pretty well. At the end of the day however how many people do you get to know closely while at law school? I can't lay claim to more that 30 or so (maybe just me).

The Harvard network...bigger is better. Just look at the endowment. Attend the Head of the Charles. A Yale Harvard football game. Doesn't matter if you know them personally.

[cavalier1138]

Ruby beats Harvard at sticker. But Harvard at sticker beats half tuition discount at Chicago.

Because...?

Because dat preftige son! Oh and access to the Harvard club.

Really though, Dirac, terrible advice. I'm not entirely sure what kind of sad, prole-ish law firms

is referring to, but no law firm OP "should" be interviewing with is going to be overly awed by Harvard credentials (especially compared side-by-side to near-equivalent Chicago credentials).

Nope. Because of the other excellent schools of Harvard, e.g. Kennedy, HBS, etc. In addition, because of the strong alumni network and all the awesome opportunities (e.g. SCOTUS clerkships, Wachtell Lipton, William Connolly, etc.), especially true for people who would love to work in DC.

I'm sure that a lot of firms really care that Harvard also has the Kennedy School. It's totally worth $150k.

JFC.

[dirac]

Ruby beats Harvard at sticker. But Harvard at sticker beats half tuition discount at Chicago.

Because...?

Because dat preftige son! Oh and access to the Harvard club.

Really though, Dirac, terrible advice. I'm not entirely sure what kind of sad, prole-ish law firms

is referring to, but no law firm OP "should" be interviewing with is going to be overly awed by Harvard credentials (especially compared side-by-side to near-equivalent Chicago credentials).

Nope. Because of the other excellent schools of Harvard, e.g. Kennedy, HBS, etc. In addition, because of the strong alumni network and all the awesome opportunities (e.g. SCOTUS clerkships, Wachtell Lipton, William Connolly, etc.), especially true for people who would love to work in DC.

I'm sure that a lot of firms really care that Harvard also has the Kennedy School. It's totally worth $150k.

JFC.

Interestingly you did not include HBS in the calculation here. Plus, the total worth of HBS, HKS, HMS, involvement with engineering departments at MIT, etc. is $75K,not $150K.

[jbagelboy]

Ruby beats Harvard at sticker. But Harvard at sticker beats half tuition discount at Chicago.

Because...?

Because dat preftige son! Oh and access to the Harvard club.

Really though, Dirac, terrible advice. I'm not entirely sure what kind of sad, prole-ish law firms

is referring to, but no law firm OP "should" be interviewing with is going to be overly awed by Harvard credentials (especially compared side-by-side to near-equivalent Chicago credentials).

Nope. Because of the other excellent schools of Harvard, e.g. Kennedy, HBS, etc. In addition, because of the strong alumni network and all the awesome opportunities (e.g. SCOTUS clerkships, Wachtell Lipton, William Connolly, etc.), especially true for people who would love to work in DC.

This is wildly misleading. You're acting like SCOTUS, Wachtell, and W&C are "opportunities" from harvard. Those are only opportunities that go to the top of the class at Harvard, just as they go to the top of the class at Chicago. Most HLS students couldn't ever get a job at those firms or that clerkship (and those aren't comparable categories). Aren't you a 2L? I'd be curious to know what firm you're summering at and which judge you're clerking for that have conferred upon you such delusions of grandeur.

[big_willy_style_333]

The Harvard network...bigger is better. Just look at the endowment. Attend the Head of the Charles. A Yale Harvard football game. Doesn't matter if you know them personally.

I don't know what the Head of Charles, the Y-H football game, and even the endowment (per student) have to do with class size. If you want to say that Harvard has a better network, that's fine, but none of the things you mention relate to your point that the network is better because it is bigger.

[jbagelboy]

Ruby beats Harvard at sticker. But Harvard at sticker beats half tuition discount at Chicago.

Because...?

Because dat preftige son! Oh and access to the Harvard club.

Really though, Dirac, terrible advice. I'm not entirely sure what kind of sad, prole-ish law firms

is referring to, but no law firm OP "should" be interviewing with is going to be overly awed by Harvard credentials (especially compared side-by-side to near-equivalent Chicago credentials).

Nope. Because of the other excellent schools of Harvard, e.g. Kennedy, HBS, etc. In addition, because of the strong alumni network and all the awesome opportunities (e.g. SCOTUS clerkships, Wachtell Lipton, William Connolly, etc.), especially true for people who would love to work in DC.

I'm sure that a lot of firms really care that Harvard also has the Kennedy School. It's totally worth $150k.

JFC.

Interestingly you did not include HBS in the calculation here. Plus, the total worth of HBS, HKS, HMS, involvement with engineering departments at MIT, etc. is $75K,not $150K.

HLS students don't have "involvement" with the engineering department at MIT. Do you even go here?

[jbagelboy]

The Harvard network...bigger is better. Just look at the endowment. Attend the Head of the Charles. A Yale Harvard football game. Doesn't matter if you know them personally.

I don't know what the Head of Charles, the Y-H football game, and even the endowment (per student) have to do with class size. If you want to say that Harvard has a better network, that's fine, but none of the things you mention relate to your point that the network is better because it is bigger.

Also other schools have traditions too. This is all relative. And HLS =\= Harvard College. These things mean and matter a lot less as a grad student.

Responding to shadowfax arguments is a lot like responding to Milo Yiannopolis on twitter--he always has something inappropriate, snippy but at base completely without substance to float around the point.

[goldenbear2020]

I still haven't heard back from UChicago about merit or need money nor from Harvard about aid -- so I'm not ready to factor that in yet.

Without factoring in merit/need aid, there is absolutely zero argument for taking UChicago over Harvard. This would be true even if you were born and raised in Chicago with 3 generations of UChicago Law faculty in your family.

[dirac]

Ruby beats Harvard at sticker. But Harvard at sticker beats half tuition discount at Chicago.

Because...?

Because dat preftige son! Oh and access to the Harvard club.

Really though, Dirac, terrible advice. I'm not entirely sure what kind of sad, prole-ish law firms

is referring to, but no law firm OP "should" be interviewing with is going to be overly awed by Harvard credentials (especially compared side-by-side to near-equivalent Chicago credentials).

Nope. Because of the other excellent schools of Harvard, e.g. Kennedy, HBS, etc. In addition, because of the strong alumni network and all the awesome opportunities (e.g. SCOTUS clerkships, Wachtell Lipton, William Connolly, etc.), especially true for people who would love to work in DC.

I'm sure that a lot of firms really care that Harvard also has the Kennedy School. It's totally worth $150k.

JFC.

Interestingly you did not include HBS in the calculation here. Plus, the total worth of HBS, HKS, HMS, involvement with engineering departments at MIT, etc. is $75K,not $150K.

HLS students don't have "involvement" with the engineering department at MIT. Do you even go here?

Oh yes, I am a 2L at HLS. Do not tell me you do not attend HLS and guess from your intuition that HLS students do not have involvement with MIT. Cross-registration aside, HLEP, Harvard Innovation Lab, MIT Entrepreneurship contests, etc. are a few among the abundant activities involving both HLS and MIT engineering students. Those are the benefits of being two train stops (half an hour's walk away) away from one of the best engineering schools in the country. The only other law schools that have this benefit are SLS and BOALT.

To be fair to Chicago that I have a lot of respect for, let us look at the percentage of HLS and Chicago graduates who have secured SCOTUS clerkships.

http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/900047 ... lerkships/#

Yes, top law firm opportunities fall to the top students of every law school in t-20 and you could advise OP to choose Wash U over Yale (no offense to Wash U) if Wash U offers half tuition discount while Yale sticker.

To address your question about my summer internship place, I am interested in venture capital and startup (that is why I am involved a lot with MIT) and I am going to do my summer internship in CA, Fenwick & West. I did not bid NY firms. But two of my section mates (a section is 80 students at HLS) declined Wachtell offer and at least one other accepted Wachtell.