Berkeley Culture vs. UVA/Penn/NYU Forum

[mantaray95]

I've been accepted to several t14s but slightly narrowed down to Berkeley, UVA, Penn, and NYU. I'm from California and would like to go back to work in California litigation biglaw, so that seems to place berkeley at the top of the list.

However, both Penn and UVA really appealed to me. I liked UVA because of the friendly culture. I would like to attend a law school where the students know one another and are very involved with the school. I liked Penn because the class size was smaller which seemed to foster a similar culture where the students seem very involved in school. The students mostly seemed younger as well.

I attended NYU undergrad and the law school does not appear too appealing to me because its larger and my understanding is that many of the law students are scattered around the city and might be involved in their own groups and lives outside of law school. However -- I don't think its particularly relevant -- but NYU is ranked higher than the other schools. I can't imagine that there would be any tangible difference between nyu and berkeley for california biglaw.

How does Berkeley compare to UVA and Penn in terms of culture? Do the most of the law students live near one another? How is the social life?

[Rigo]

What's the money look like?

[Br3v]

If you get substantially more money from one go there. Otherwise just do Berkeley if you want to work in California.

[rpupkin]

If you get substantially more money from one go there. Otherwise just do Berkeley if you want to work in California.

[RParadela]

If you get substantially more money from one go there. Otherwise just do Berkeley if you want to work in California.

[Lawcat11]

Fwiw, while a lot of people at NYU are commuters and have lives outside of school, most people I've met are really collegial and are involved with some sort of extracurricular activity at the law school. Sections also do a lot of social events together. I wouldn't say that it's at the level of UVA, but you can be as involved as you want. It's also nice being in the middle of a big city because you can get away from the law school chaos whenever you need to (and you will need to).

[mantaray95]

If you get substantially more money from one go there. Otherwise just do Berkeley if you want to work in California.

Right now its 75k from Penn, 90k (with in-state) from Berkeley, and have heard nothing from NYU or UVA yet. I also have 105k from Michigan, but wouldn't want to go to Michigan. I'm hoping to try to use the 105 as leverage for other schools.

[rpupkin]

If you get substantially more money from one go there. Otherwise just do Berkeley if you want to work in California.

Right now its 75k from Penn, 90k (with in-state) from Berkeley, and have heard nothing from NYU or UVA yet. I also have 105k from Michigan, but wouldn't want to go to Michigan. I'm hoping to try to use the 105 as leverage for other schools.

Let me get this straight: (1) you want to work in California, (2) Berkeley is offering you the most scholarship money out of UVA/Penn/NYU, and, in addition, (3) Berkeley's tuition will be lower than the other two because you're an in-state resident.

There really isn't a question here.

[PrezRand]

Berkeley is costing 30k for tuition if I did my math right. I might hate Berk for being ultra-liberal, but this seems like a no-brainer here if you want to work in Cali and are from there

[cavalier1138]

Stop. Basing. Career. Decisions. On. Stupid. Criteria.

I don't know why 0Ls are so damn obsessed with the "social scene" at law school, but I promise that it should be the least of your concerns. You are not going to a second undergrad. You're going to school to prepare for a specific profession. Hell, it's entirely possible to spend you second and third years entirely off-campus wherever you go.

As has already been said, go to the school that offers you the most money. You'll make friends at any of these schools, and you will be equally "involved" in the school (that's not a thing) anywhere you go.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Stop. Basing. Career. Decisions. On. Stupid. Criteria.

I don't know why 0Ls are so damn obsessed with the "social scene" at law school, but I promise that it should be the least of your concerns. You are not going to a second undergrad.

God, I really can't echo this enough.

I simply do not empathize in the slightest with "adults" in their mid-20s who are still placing social scene over 10s of thousands of dollars. How non-serious of a person/professional are you?? Have you ever held a real job and paid real bills, or is $50,000 just another academic exercise that does not register on a visceral level for you??

I immediately judge harshly someone who can't stomach the idea of a less-than-perfect social scene for a few years and so schlep themselves to the wrong part of the continent, pay 50-100K too much for school, and then probably special snowflake all over their new "friends" when they can't find "just the most perfect dream job they always wanted at graduation". Three years later they are writing extensive missives on TLS about the sad shape of the legal market and how they can't afford their organically sourced, free-range kombucha from their Brooklyn co-op while paying their exorbitant school loans. Ya think??

Seriously. Life is about decisions and those decisions have consequences.

Be an adult...think like an adult...act like adult...do adult shit.

[theboringest]

Stop. Basing. Career. Decisions. On. Stupid. Criteria.

I don't know why 0Ls are so damn obsessed with the "social scene" at law school, but I promise that it should be the least of your concerns. You are not going to a second undergrad.

God, I really can't echo this enough.

I simply do not empathize in the slightest with "adults" in their mid-20s who are still placing social scene over 10s of thousands of dollars. How non-serious of a person/professional are you?? Have you ever held a real job and paid real bills, or is $50,000 just another academic exercise that does not register on a visceral level for you??

I immediately judge harshly someone who can't stomach the idea of a less-than-perfect social scene for a few years and so schlep themselves to the wrong part of the continent, pay 50-100K too much for school, and then probably special snowflake all over their new "friends" when they can't find "just the most perfect dream job they always wanted at graduation". Three years later they are writing extensive missives on TLS about the sad shape of the legal market and how they can't afford their organically sourced, free-range kombucha from their Brooklyn co-op while paying their exorbitant school loans. Ya think??

Seriously. Life is about decisions and those decisions have consequences.

Be an adult...think like an adult...act like adult...do adult shit.

I mean tbf there are circumstances where it's a fair consideration- i.e similarly ranked/outcome schools where you have basically the same money at both. I've got mostly equal COA offers at Mich/Cornell/UVA and each will give me pretty much the same chance at my desired outcomes...so yeah, "scene" is going to play a part in my final decision. Otherwise I'm just picking names out of a hat.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Stop. Basing. Career. Decisions. On. Stupid. Criteria.

I don't know why 0Ls are so damn obsessed with the "social scene" at law school, but I promise that it should be the least of your concerns. You are not going to a second undergrad.

God, I really can't echo this enough.

I simply do not empathize in the slightest with "adults" in their mid-20s who are still placing social scene over 10s of thousands of dollars. How non-serious of a person/professional are you?? Have you ever held a real job and paid real bills, or is $50,000 just another academic exercise that does not register on a visceral level for you??

I immediately judge harshly someone who can't stomach the idea of a less-than-perfect social scene for a few years and so schlep themselves to the wrong part of the continent, pay 50-100K too much for school, and then probably special snowflake all over their new "friends" when they can't find "just the most perfect dream job they always wanted at graduation". Three years later they are writing extensive missives on TLS about the sad shape of the legal market and how they can't afford their organically sourced, free-range kombucha from their Brooklyn co-op while paying their exorbitant school loans. Ya think??

Seriously. Life is about decisions and those decisions have consequences.

Be an adult...think like an adult...act like adult...do adult shit.

I mean tbf there are circumstances where it's a fair consideration- i.e similarly ranked/outcome schools where you have basically the same money at both. I've got mostly equal COA offers at Mich/Cornell/UVA and each will give me pretty much the same chance at my desired outcomes...so yeah, "scene" is going to play a part in my final decision. Otherwise I'm just picking names out of a hat.

Sure. But to be fair, Cavalier said "least of your concerns" not "shouldn't be a concern" as you're implying.

So yes, if COAs/employment outcomes are exactly the same, then feel free to get all "where can I recreate the cast from Girls in my own life" with your decision. If they aren't, then don't. (And certainly don't obsess for two paragraphs about trivialities like "social scene" as OP did. Those shouldn't matter given her/his situation--should've been an afterthought.)

[canafsa]

.

[waldorf]

Stop. Basing. Career. Decisions. On. Stupid. Criteria.

I don't know why 0Ls are so damn obsessed with the "social scene" at law school, but I promise that it should be the least of your concerns. You are not going to a second undergrad.

God, I really can't echo this enough.

I simply do not empathize in the slightest with "adults" in their mid-20s who are still placing social scene over 10s of thousands of dollars. How non-serious of a person/professional are you?? Have you ever held a real job and paid real bills, or is $50,000 just another academic exercise that does not register on a visceral level for you??

I immediately judge harshly someone who can't stomach the idea of a less-than-perfect social scene for a few years and so schlep themselves to the wrong part of the continent, pay 50-100K too much for school, and then probably special snowflake all over their new "friends" when they can't find "just the most perfect dream job they always wanted at graduation". Three years later they are writing extensive missives on TLS about the sad shape of the legal market and how they can't afford their organically sourced, free-range kombucha from their Brooklyn co-op while paying their exorbitant school loans. Ya think??

Seriously. Life is about decisions and those decisions have consequences.

Be an adult...think like an adult...act like adult...do adult shit.

I mean tbf there are circumstances where it's a fair consideration- i.e similarly ranked/outcome schools where you have basically the same money at both. I've got mostly equal COA offers at Mich/Cornell/UVA and each will give me pretty much the same chance at my desired outcomes...so yeah, "scene" is going to play a part in my final decision. Otherwise I'm just picking names out of a hat.

Sorry not sorry, but I also would prefer not to be absolutely miserable during law school because I freaking hate the location. My family is by far the number one most important consideration in my life and I'd be incredibly depressed to be across the country in California. Yes, money is a consideration, but unless I got a full ride at Berkeley and only say, 25% at a school on the East Coast or Midwest, I'm choosing a Midwest or East Coast school every single time. Everyone's priorities are different, and as long as you aren't paying sticker at a school with zero employment opportunities, I really don't see the issue. Just be aware of what you're getting into.

[BrittanyJeream]

Stop. Basing. Career. Decisions. On. Stupid. Criteria.

I don't know why 0Ls are so damn obsessed with the "social scene" at law school, but I promise that it should be the least of your concerns. You are not going to a second undergrad.

God, I really can't echo this enough.

I simply do not empathize in the slightest with "adults" in their mid-20s who are still placing social scene over 10s of thousands of dollars. How non-serious of a person/professional are you?? Have you ever held a real job and paid real bills, or is $50,000 just another academic exercise that does not register on a visceral level for you??

I immediately judge harshly someone who can't stomach the idea of a less-than-perfect social scene for a few years and so schlep themselves to the wrong part of the continent, pay 50-100K too much for school, and then probably special snowflake all over their new "friends" when they can't find "just the most perfect dream job they always wanted at graduation". Three years later they are writing extensive missives on TLS about the sad shape of the legal market and how they can't afford their organically sourced, free-range kombucha from their Brooklyn co-op while paying their exorbitant school loans. Ya think??

Seriously. Life is about decisions and those decisions have consequences.

Be an adult...think like an adult...act like adult...do adult shit.

I mean tbf there are circumstances where it's a fair consideration- i.e similarly ranked/outcome schools where you have basically the same money at both. I've got mostly equal COA offers at Mich/Cornell/UVA and each will give me pretty much the same chance at my desired outcomes...so yeah, "scene" is going to play a part in my final decision. Otherwise I'm just picking names out of a hat.

Sorry not sorry, but I also would prefer not to be absolutely miserable during law school because I freaking hate the location. My family is by far the number one most important consideration in my life and I'd be incredibly depressed to be across the country in California. Yes, money is a consideration, but unless I got a full ride at Berkeley and only say, 25% at a school on the East Coast or Midwest, I'm choosing a Midwest or East Coast school every single time. Everyone's priorities are different, and as long as you aren't paying sticker at a school with zero employment opportunities, I really don't see the issue. Just be aware of what you're getting into.

+1 ^^

Like at the risk of sounding /dramatic/ Cornell has a pretty high suicide rate - which leads me to believe a lot of students there are ~depressed~. It's kind of difficult to "schlep through a few years" if you're literally contemplating ending your life. If something isn't a big deal to you, that's fine and great; nobody is trying to convince you otherwise, but consider that people might have this as a priority for reasons you didn't think were important to you while choosing a school.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Stop. Basing. Career. Decisions. On. Stupid. Criteria.

I don't know why 0Ls are so damn obsessed with the "social scene" at law school, but I promise that it should be the least of your concerns. You are not going to a second undergrad.

God, I really can't echo this enough.

I simply do not empathize in the slightest with "adults" in their mid-20s who are still placing social scene over 10s of thousands of dollars. How non-serious of a person/professional are you?? Have you ever held a real job and paid real bills, or is $50,000 just another academic exercise that does not register on a visceral level for you??

I immediately judge harshly someone who can't stomach the idea of a less-than-perfect social scene for a few years and so schlep themselves to the wrong part of the continent, pay 50-100K too much for school, and then probably special snowflake all over their new "friends" when they can't find "just the most perfect dream job they always wanted at graduation". Three years later they are writing extensive missives on TLS about the sad shape of the legal market and how they can't afford their organically sourced, free-range kombucha from their Brooklyn co-op while paying their exorbitant school loans. Ya think??

Seriously. Life is about decisions and those decisions have consequences.

Be an adult...think like an adult...act like adult...do adult shit.

I mean tbf there are circumstances where it's a fair consideration- i.e similarly ranked/outcome schools where you have basically the same money at both. I've got mostly equal COA offers at Mich/Cornell/UVA and each will give me pretty much the same chance at my desired outcomes...so yeah, "scene" is going to play a part in my final decision. Otherwise I'm just picking names out of a hat.

Sorry not sorry, but I also would prefer not to be absolutely miserable during law school because I freaking hate the location. My family is by far the number one most important consideration in my life and I'd be incredibly depressed to be across the country in California. Yes, money is a consideration, but unless I got a full ride at Berkeley and only say, 25% at a school on the East Coast or Midwest, I'm choosing a Midwest or East Coast school every single time. Everyone's priorities are different, and as long as you aren't paying sticker at a school with zero employment opportunities, I really don't see the issue. Just be aware of what you're getting into.

God, I could've sworn the goal posts were right here.

No one said location shouldn't be a concern. If your family/friends are from place X and you want to practice in place X, by all means make sure you're going to a school that employs well in place X.

In contrast, OP is from place X, wants to practice in place X, has the best COA at a school that places well in place X but is still ruminating on paying 50K more to go to location Y to attend a school that focuses its employment placement in place Y just because the beer pong and babes scene is better.

Your hypothetical and OPs aren't just apples and oranges, they are comparing apples and termites.

[waldorf]

Stop. Basing. Career. Decisions. On. Stupid. Criteria.

I don't know why 0Ls are so damn obsessed with the "social scene" at law school, but I promise that it should be the least of your concerns. You are not going to a second undergrad.

God, I really can't echo this enough.

I simply do not empathize in the slightest with "adults" in their mid-20s who are still placing social scene over 10s of thousands of dollars. How non-serious of a person/professional are you?? Have you ever held a real job and paid real bills, or is $50,000 just another academic exercise that does not register on a visceral level for you??

I immediately judge harshly someone who can't stomach the idea of a less-than-perfect social scene for a few years and so schlep themselves to the wrong part of the continent, pay 50-100K too much for school, and then probably special snowflake all over their new "friends" when they can't find "just the most perfect dream job they always wanted at graduation". Three years later they are writing extensive missives on TLS about the sad shape of the legal market and how they can't afford their organically sourced, free-range kombucha from their Brooklyn co-op while paying their exorbitant school loans. Ya think??

Seriously. Life is about decisions and those decisions have consequences.

Be an adult...think like an adult...act like adult...do adult shit.

I mean tbf there are circumstances where it's a fair consideration- i.e similarly ranked/outcome schools where you have basically the same money at both. I've got mostly equal COA offers at Mich/Cornell/UVA and each will give me pretty much the same chance at my desired outcomes...so yeah, "scene" is going to play a part in my final decision. Otherwise I'm just picking names out of a hat.

Sorry not sorry, but I also would prefer not to be absolutely miserable during law school because I freaking hate the location. My family is by far the number one most important consideration in my life and I'd be incredibly depressed to be across the country in California. Yes, money is a consideration, but unless I got a full ride at Berkeley and only say, 25% at a school on the East Coast or Midwest, I'm choosing a Midwest or East Coast school every single time. Everyone's priorities are different, and as long as you aren't paying sticker at a school with zero employment opportunities, I really don't see the issue. Just be aware of what you're getting into.

God, I could've sworn the goal posts were right here.

No one said location shouldn't be a concern. If your family/friends are from place X and you want to practice in place X, by all means make sure you're going to a school that employs well in place X.

In contrast, OP is from place X, wants to practice in place X, has the best COA at a school that places well in place X but is still ruminating on paying 50K more to go to location Y to attend a school that focuses its employment placement in place Y just because the beer pong and babes scene is better.

Your hypothetical and OPs aren't just apples and oranges, they are comparing apples and termites.

Welp, that was unnecessary. I was just contributing to the conversation that there ARE things other than scholarship that factor into one's decision. Everyone has different priorities and as long as you know what you're getting into, go for it. It's none of my business. If culture matters a lot to you, cool. Again, just know what you're getting into. (I'll give you that most people don't know, and most people have no idea what paying back six figure debt is like). But advice can be given without being rude about it and realizing that people care about different things. Perhaps, just perhaps, people might take the good advice given on TLS more seriously if people didn't take it upon themselves to be so dang condescending.

[globetrotter659]

FWIW, UVA can feel very fratty and undergrady to some people (me included). When costs are similar, I understand choosing based on atmosphere.

But here, OP's decision is easy: from CA, wants to work in CA, and wants a school with a "friendly" atmosphere. Berkeley checks all of those boxes while also be cheaper.

[Rigo]

Yeah Berkeley makes sense here.

Feign trepidation over the rankings drop and ask for more money.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Welp, that was unnecessary. I was just contributing to the conversation that there ARE things other than scholarship that factor into one's decision. Everyone has different priorities and as long as you know what you're getting into, go for it. It's none of my business. If culture matters a lot to you, cool. Again, just know what you're getting into. (I'll give you that most people don't know, and most people have no idea what paying back six figure debt is like). But advice can be given without being rude about it and realizing that people care about different things. Perhaps, just perhaps, people might take the good advice given on TLS more seriously if people didn't take it upon themselves to be so dang condescending.

Nah dude, it's entirely necessary. Sometimes it's important to tell someone (or, in this case, several people) in no uncertain terms, that they are flirting with terrible decisions--both from a professional and financial perspective.

It doesn't do anyone any favors to condescendingly "kid-gloves" them when they are contemplating doing something stupid for stupid reasons. We are all adults here and the unvarnished truth has value. I'll leave this kinder/gentler/"you do you boo" approach to others.

[waldorf]

Welp, that was unnecessary. I was just contributing to the conversation that there ARE things other than scholarship that factor into one's decision. Everyone has different priorities and as long as you know what you're getting into, go for it. It's none of my business. If culture matters a lot to you, cool. Again, just know what you're getting into. (I'll give you that most people don't know, and most people have no idea what paying back six figure debt is like). But advice can be given without being rude about it and realizing that people care about different things. Perhaps, just perhaps, people might take the good advice given on TLS more seriously if people didn't take it upon themselves to be so dang condescending.

Nah dude, it's entirely necessary. Sometimes it's important to tell someone (or, in this case, several people) in no uncertain terms, that they are flirting with terrible decisions--both from a professional and financial perspective.

It doesn't do anyone any favors to condescendingly "kid-gloves" them when they are contemplating doing something stupid for stupid reasons. We are all adults here and the unvarnished truth has value. I'll leave this kinder/gentler/"you do you boo" approach to others.

I'm all about tough love. I'm not about being an asshole. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Welp, that was unnecessary. I was just contributing to the conversation that there ARE things other than scholarship that factor into one's decision. Everyone has different priorities and as long as you know what you're getting into, go for it. It's none of my business. If culture matters a lot to you, cool. Again, just know what you're getting into. (I'll give you that most people don't know, and most people have no idea what paying back six figure debt is like). But advice can be given without being rude about it and realizing that people care about different things. Perhaps, just perhaps, people might take the good advice given on TLS more seriously if people didn't take it upon themselves to be so dang condescending.

Nah dude, it's entirely necessary. Sometimes it's important to tell someone (or, in this case, several people) in no uncertain terms, that they are flirting with terrible decisions--both from a professional and financial perspective.

It doesn't do anyone any favors to condescendingly "kid-gloves" them when they are contemplating doing something stupid for stupid reasons. We are all adults here and the unvarnished truth has value. I'll leave this kinder/gentler/"you do you boo" approach to others.

I'm all about tough love. I'm not about being an asshole. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Honey and vinegar together with some Balsamic make for a great salad dressing--sometimes, in some contexts, you need both.

[Fiddlesticks]

I would have said Berkeley before the new rankings. Now I think it'd be absolutely ridiculous to go to a school 6 spots lower than your other options!

[waldorf]

Welp, that was unnecessary. I was just contributing to the conversation that there ARE things other than scholarship that factor into one's decision. Everyone has different priorities and as long as you know what you're getting into, go for it. It's none of my business. If culture matters a lot to you, cool. Again, just know what you're getting into. (I'll give you that most people don't know, and most people have no idea what paying back six figure debt is like). But advice can be given without being rude about it and realizing that people care about different things. Perhaps, just perhaps, people might take the good advice given on TLS more seriously if people didn't take it upon themselves to be so dang condescending.

Nah dude, it's entirely necessary. Sometimes it's important to tell someone (or, in this case, several people) in no uncertain terms, that they are flirting with terrible decisions--both from a professional and financial perspective.

It doesn't do anyone any favors to condescendingly "kid-gloves" them when they are contemplating doing something stupid for stupid reasons. We are all adults here and the unvarnished truth has value. I'll leave this kinder/gentler/"you do you boo" approach to others.

I'm all about tough love. I'm not about being an asshole. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Honey and vinegar together with some Balsamic make for a great salad dressing--sometimes, in some contexts, you need both.

Now I want a salad.

OP, go to Berkeley unless either Penn or UVA end up giving you a better offer. Even still, if you want to stay in California, I don't see why you're considering other schools. Berkeley's ultra-liberalness doesn't necessarily appeal to me, but I value things like being close to my family and as little debt as possible a lot more than I do political affiliation. I've also never heard anything about Berkeley not being "friendly". You'll make friends at any school, as long as you aren't totally socially inept.

Good luck with the decision!