Fordham (40k) or Cardozo (Full) Forum

[basketofbread]

3.45 / 170 / NYC, plan to work in NYC, wait listed at every T14 I applied to

I would appreciate some insight into my decision. I live at home with parents currently and I'm planning to move out, taking some loans to cover living expenses. I have savings to mitigate the living cost. Rent is 700/ month for reference.

I know people who have succeeded at both schools in terms of what they were seeking. I had a long conversation with a friend who is a Full Scholly Cardozo 3L bound for big law who essentially told me the conventional wisdom that his situation is unique, you have to be in the top 15% or so to land that job.

My interests lie moreso in "public interest", ACLU, Innocence Project, legal aid, etc... My work experience has largely been political offices and non profits. I genuinely enjoy that kind of work.

The sense seems to be that you can't "plan" to be at the top of your class, which makes sense, but I'm using every resource I know of to increase my chances of being there. Leading toward Fordham because they offer relatively better outcomes.

My question is which do you think is a wiser choice to make, given what is likely to be my ultimate debt burden and my career goals?

I appreciate you taking the time to read this, I'll be here to answer questions and accept harsh criticisms.

[Mikey]

is that 40k from F 40k/yr or 40k over 3 years?

[curry1]

3.45 / 170 / NYC, plan to work in NYC, wait listed at every T14 I applied to

I would appreciate some insight into my decision. I live at home with parents currently and I'm planning to move out, taking some loans to cover living expenses. I have savings to mitigate the living cost. Rent is 700/ month for reference.

I know people who have succeeded at both schools in terms of what they were seeking. I had a long conversation with a friend who is a Full Scholly Cardozo 3L bound for big law who essentially told me the conventional wisdom that his situation is unique, you have to be in the top 15% or so to land that job.

My interests lie moreso in "public interest", ACLU, Innocence Project, legal aid, etc... My work experience has largely been political offices and non profits. I genuinely enjoy that kind of work.

The sense seems to be that you can't "plan" to be at the top of your class, which makes sense, but I'm using every resource I know of to increase my chances of being there. Leading toward Fordham because they offer relatively better outcomes.

My question is which do you think is a wiser choice to make, given what is likely to be my ultimate debt burden and my career goals?

I appreciate you taking the time to read this, I'll be here to answer questions and accept harsh criticisms.

retake/reapply/wait to get off t14 waitlists or don't go. If you want to work prestigious PI like some of the examples you listed, school pedigree is nearly as important as for biglaw. How many t14s did you apply to? You should have blanketed the t14 - hys.

[basketofbread]

is that 40k from F 40k/yr or 40k over 3 years?

40/yr

[basketofbread]

3.45 / 170 / NYC, plan to work in NYC, wait listed at every T14 I applied to

I would appreciate some insight into my decision. I live at home with parents currently and I'm planning to move out, taking some loans to cover living expenses. I have savings to mitigate the living cost. Rent is 700/ month for reference.

I know people who have succeeded at both schools in terms of what they were seeking. I had a long conversation with a friend who is a Full Scholly Cardozo 3L bound for big law who essentially told me the conventional wisdom that his situation is unique, you have to be in the top 15% or so to land that job.

My interests lie moreso in "public interest", ACLU, Innocence Project, legal aid, etc... My work experience has largely been political offices and non profits. I genuinely enjoy that kind of work.

The sense seems to be that you can't "plan" to be at the top of your class, which makes sense, but I'm using every resource I know of to increase my chances of being there. Leading toward Fordham because they offer relatively better outcomes.

My question is which do you think is a wiser choice to make, given what is likely to be my ultimate debt burden and my career goals?

I appreciate you taking the time to read this, I'll be here to answer questions and accept harsh criticisms.

retake/reapply/wait to get off t14 waitlists or don't go. If you want to work prestigious PI like some of the examples you listed, school pedigree is nearly as important as for biglaw. How many t14s did you apply to? You should have blanketed the t14 - hys.

I applied to all of them and I'm still waiting on a few. I can be convinced to retake I think. But how difficult is it to get to the top of my class at Fordham for instance? Are you not then in the running for the same types of jobs available to T14 students?

[Nebby]

3.45 / 170 / NYC, plan to work in NYC, wait listed at every T14 I applied to

I would appreciate some insight into my decision. I live at home with parents currently and I'm planning to move out, taking some loans to cover living expenses. I have savings to mitigate the living cost. Rent is 700/ month for reference.

I know people who have succeeded at both schools in terms of what they were seeking. I had a long conversation with a friend who is a Full Scholly Cardozo 3L bound for big law who essentially told me the conventional wisdom that his situation is unique, you have to be in the top 15% or so to land that job.

My interests lie moreso in "public interest", ACLU, Innocence Project, legal aid, etc... My work experience has largely been political offices and non profits. I genuinely enjoy that kind of work.

The sense seems to be that you can't "plan" to be at the top of your class, which makes sense, but I'm using every resource I know of to increase my chances of being there. Leading toward Fordham because they offer relatively better outcomes.

My question is which do you think is a wiser choice to make, given what is likely to be my ultimate debt burden and my career goals?

I appreciate you taking the time to read this, I'll be here to answer questions and accept harsh criticisms.

retake/reapply/wait to get off t14 waitlists or don't go. If you want to work prestigious PI like some of the examples you listed, school pedigree is nearly as important as for biglaw. How many t14s did you apply to? You should have blanketed the t14 - hys.

I applied to all of them and I'm still waiting on a few. I can be convinced to retake I think. But how difficult is it to get to the top of my class at Fordham for instance? Are you not then in the running for the same types of jobs available to T14 students?

For public interest, it's generally best to go to a T14. Your best shot at entry-level PI work depends on (1) school rank; (2) grades; and (3) relevant law school experience
E.g., T14 w/ relevant experience can make up for median grades.
Great grades and great, relevant experience (at least two stints--whether summers or externships or combo of either/or--in an org/gov't agency relevant to the desired practice area) can make up for mediocre school rank.

However, school rank matters a lot for entry-level hiring at the type of organizations you want to work at. For example, my enviro org* overwhelming recruits from the T14 solely. The past few years entry-level hires were all from either HLS, CLS, NYU, Northwestern, Michigan, or Berkeley. We have some T1/2 grads that are staff attorneys, but they all came here after practicing for years prior elsewhere.

*enviro, like most PI, is a niche field and the hiring practices of my organization mirror other regional and national PI orgs. Local PI organizations don't care nearly as much about school rank--they care about hiring great people who will stay for a long time (hopefully).

[basketofbread]

3.45 / 170 / NYC, plan to work in NYC, wait listed at every T14 I applied to

I would appreciate some insight into my decision. I live at home with parents currently and I'm planning to move out, taking some loans to cover living expenses. I have savings to mitigate the living cost. Rent is 700/ month for reference.

I know people who have succeeded at both schools in terms of what they were seeking. I had a long conversation with a friend who is a Full Scholly Cardozo 3L bound for big law who essentially told me the conventional wisdom that his situation is unique, you have to be in the top 15% or so to land that job.

My interests lie moreso in "public interest", ACLU, Innocence Project, legal aid, etc... My work experience has largely been political offices and non profits. I genuinely enjoy that kind of work.

The sense seems to be that you can't "plan" to be at the top of your class, which makes sense, but I'm using every resource I know of to increase my chances of being there. Leading toward Fordham because they offer relatively better outcomes.

My question is which do you think is a wiser choice to make, given what is likely to be my ultimate debt burden and my career goals?

I appreciate you taking the time to read this, I'll be here to answer questions and accept harsh criticisms.

retake/reapply/wait to get off t14 waitlists or don't go. If you want to work prestigious PI like some of the examples you listed, school pedigree is nearly as important as for biglaw. How many t14s did you apply to? You should have blanketed the t14 - hys.

I applied to all of them and I'm still waiting on a few. I can be convinced to retake I think. But how difficult is it to get to the top of my class at Fordham for instance? Are you not then in the running for the same types of jobs available to T14 students?

For public interest, it's generally best to go to a T14. Your best shot at entry-level PI work depends on (1) school rank; (2) grades; and (3) relevant law school experience
E.g., T14 w/ relevant experience can make up for median grades.
Great grades and great, relevant experience (at least two stints--whether summers or externships or combo of either/or--in an org/gov't agency relevant to the desired practice area) can make up for mediocre school rank.

However, school rank matters a lot for entry-level hiring at the type of organizations you want to work at. For example, my enviro org* overwhelming recruits from the T14 solely. The past few years entry-level hires were all from either HLS, CLS, NYU, Northwestern, Michigan, or Berkeley. We have some T1/2 grads that are staff attorneys, but they all came here after practicing for years prior elsewhere.

*enviro, like most PI, is a niche field and the hiring practices of my organization mirror other regional and national PI orgs. Local PI organizations don't care nearly as much about school rank--they care about hiring great people who will stay for a long time (hopefully).

Appreciate the response. I'm genuinely considering retaking to try and get a perfect score and just getting into a better school with money. Would you say that decent PI jobs are available for the top of the class at Fordham or Cardozo? What about positions in City / State gov?

[Nebby]

Honestly no idea. My knowledge is largely limited to the opportunities available in the T14. I think you should retake if possible. 2 to 3 point LSAT bump will help you greatly

[basketofbread]

Bumping. Assuming I am okay with non prestigious local PI, as well as state and city gov jobs which is where my work experience has been, How decent of a choice is Cardozo at full?

I am aware of the merits of the idea that one can not choose their class rank. It goes without saying that I plan to work optimally and follow the direction of people I know who have succeeded at this school.

Please let me know what you think.

[UVA2B]

Bumping. Assuming I am okay with non prestigious local PI, as well as state and city gov jobs which is where my work experience has been, How decent of a choice is Cardozo at full?

I am aware of the merits of the idea that one can not choose their class rank. It goes without saying that I plan to work optimally and follow the direction of people I know who have succeeded at this school.

Please let me know what you think.

Cardozo with a full scholarship is fine if you're not shooting for the local PI that is actually still highly desirable in NYC (Bronx Defenders, NYC DA, etc.). Those are a particularly tough nut to crack on the local level (from my limited understanding in speaking to friends who really want them), and Cardozo may be an easy way for those hiring for those jobs to differentiate between you and another candidate. I'm not saying those jobs are un-gettable from Cardozo, but they're just generally really hard from most everywhere.

Cardozo on a full ride (especially if you have COL covered without going into serious debt, cause F NYC COL) is a fantastic chance when your goals are more modest like yours seem to be. Just make sure your goals aren't sneakily difficult where you think you're avoiding the prestige-driven jobs, only to find equally difficult sledding in that local PI job.

[basketofbread]

Bumping. Assuming I am okay with non prestigious local PI, as well as state and city gov jobs which is where my work experience has been, How decent of a choice is Cardozo at full?

I am aware of the merits of the idea that one can not choose their class rank. It goes without saying that I plan to work optimally and follow the direction of people I know who have succeeded at this school.

Please let me know what you think.

Cardozo with a full scholarship is fine if you're not shooting for the local PI that is actually still highly desirable in NYC (Bronx Defenders, NYC DA, etc.). Those are a particularly tough nut to crack on the local level (from my limited understanding in speaking to friends who really want them), and Cardozo may be an easy way for those hiring for those jobs to differentiate between you and another candidate. I'm not saying those jobs are un-gettable from Cardozo, but they're just generally really hard from most everywhere.

Cardozo on a full ride (especially if you have COL covered without going into serious debt, cause F NYC COL) is a fantastic chance when your goals are more modest like yours seem to be. Just make sure your goals aren't sneakily difficult where you think you're avoiding the prestige-driven jobs, only to find equally difficult sledding in that local PI job.

Thanks for the response.

Are you in NYC PI? If you can, what's an example of a sneakily difficult job?

Do you mean moreso not to bank on these jobs and cast a wide net, right? Not avoid an attempt altogether?

Also when I interned at the Staten Island DA's office, people from NYU and Columbia were applying en masse. This was immediately post recession, but are all borough DA offices still stiff competition? Thanks again.

[UVA2B]

Bumping. Assuming I am okay with non prestigious local PI, as well as state and city gov jobs which is where my work experience has been, How decent of a choice is Cardozo at full?

I am aware of the merits of the idea that one can not choose their class rank. It goes without saying that I plan to work optimally and follow the direction of people I know who have succeeded at this school.

Please let me know what you think.

Cardozo with a full scholarship is fine if you're not shooting for the local PI that is actually still highly desirable in NYC (Bronx Defenders, NYC DA, etc.). Those are a particularly tough nut to crack on the local level (from my limited understanding in speaking to friends who really want them), and Cardozo may be an easy way for those hiring for those jobs to differentiate between you and another candidate. I'm not saying those jobs are un-gettable from Cardozo, but they're just generally really hard from most everywhere.

Cardozo on a full ride (especially if you have COL covered without going into serious debt, cause F NYC COL) is a fantastic chance when your goals are more modest like yours seem to be. Just make sure your goals aren't sneakily difficult where you think you're avoiding the prestige-driven jobs, only to find equally difficult sledding in that local PI job.

Thanks for the response.

Are you in NYC PI? If you can, what's an example of a sneakily difficult job?

Do you mean moreso not to bank on these jobs and cast a wide net, right? Not avoid an attempt altogether?

Also when I interned at the Staten Island DA's office, people from NYU and Columbia were applying en masse. This was immediately post recession, but are all borough DA offices still stiff competition? Thanks again.

Nope, just have friends that are gunning for those types of jobs at UVA. I can't speak knowledgeably to how difficult the hiring is specifically. More just wanted to make sure you understood NYC has some of the most competitive "local PI" jobs in the country because of the glut of attorneys in the city and the general desirability of being in the city by a huge number of attorneys.

[cavalier1138]

Also when I interned at the Staten Island DA's office, people from NYU and Columbia were applying en masse. This was immediately post recession, but are all borough DA offices still stiff competition? Thanks again.

Well, I don't know if people are beating each other up for the chance to live in Staten Island, but yes, ADA positions are still highly sought-after.