Yale, Stanford and Harvard for IP & NYC biglaw Forum

[ChelseaZ]

First of all, let me start off saying that I am enormously grateful for having both programs and this struggle. But for me the struggle is real. Therefore any advice / suggestion is needed. In return, I can answer questions for law school applications & proofread ps for those who need an extra person to consult.

I am just gonna list my background, career goal etc.

I am an international student. Want to pursue a career in intellectual property law (ideally start with a standard NYC biglaw) first and later switch to entrepreneurship & start up. I am a KJD, double major in Physics & Philosophy. I am not interested in PI. I have a lot of connections and friends in Boston, but I don't necessarily prefer Boston over New Haven as my undergraduate was in a very small college town. I am very interested in Technology, Philosophy and Music. I also got into a MIT Phd program, which I was thinking of dual-programming if I go to HLS. But does a PhD from MIT help me in my career goal?

So the question is: given my background and career goal, is Yale still a no-brainer? If I want to go to NYC biglaw and later possibly to Bay area, will Yale give me better chance than Harvard?


Thank you tls friends!

[RedPurpleBlue]

In your case, I would personally do JD-PhD through Harvard/MIT, if possible. A PhD is a great asset in IP law from what I understand (please correct me if i'm wrong other posters), plus it leaves your research options down the road if you want to leave law and possible professorship options in both IP Law/Science field. If the PhD is in philosophy, then I think I'd pass and go to Yale.

[dm1683]

There are superhumans among us.


OP why do law school at all? A PhD from MIT is literally one of the most prestigious resume lines in the world. Why go into all that debt just to slave for 14 hour days in an office in New York Shitty when you could get a cushy teaching/ research job in physics?

You do you, of course, but a law degree seems weird for you.

[spqr351]

There are superhumans among us.


OP why do law school at all? A PhD from MIT is literally one of the most prestigious resume lines in the world. Why go into all that debt just to slave for 14 hour days in an office in New York Shitty when you could get a cushy teaching/ research job in physics?

You do you, of course, but a law degree seems weird for you.

Seriously, if being a history professor were at all a secure future, I'd do it in a second. Unfortunately their job market makes the law market look like, well, the market for software engineers by comparison.

[dm1683]

There are superhumans among us.


OP why do law school at all? A PhD from MIT is literally one of the most prestigious resume lines in the world. Why go into all that debt just to slave for 14 hour days in an office in New York Shitty when you could get a cushy teaching/ research job in physics?

You do you, of course, but a law degree seems weird for you.

Seriously, if being a history professor were at all a secure future, I'd do it in a second. Unfortunately their job market makes the law market look like, well, the market for software engineers by comparison.

This is very true, but OP would be getting a physics PhD from MIT. That is very different from getting a history PhD from University of Cincinnati or wherever. Job prospects for them, I would think, are excellent.

[spqr351]

There are superhumans among us.


OP why do law school at all? A PhD from MIT is literally one of the most prestigious resume lines in the world. Why go into all that debt just to slave for 14 hour days in an office in New York Shitty when you could get a cushy teaching/ research job in physics?

You do you, of course, but a law degree seems weird for you.

Seriously, if being a history professor were at all a secure future, I'd do it in a second. Unfortunately their job market makes the law market look like, well, the market for software engineers by comparison.

This is very true, but OP would be getting a physics PhD from MIT. That is very different from getting a history PhD from University of Cincinnati or wherever. Job prospects for them, I would think, are excellent.

Exactly. I can't imagine why OP would want law school instead of a PhD, especially one from MIT in a field he or she presumably enjoys. I know that if I were in a similar position in the field I like most, I'd forget about being a lawyer.

[Npret]

First of all, let me start off saying that I am enormously grateful for having both programs and this struggle. But for me the struggle is real. Therefore any advice / suggestion is needed. In return, I can answer questions for law school applications & proofread ps for those who need an extra person to consult.

I am just gonna list my background, career goal etc.

I am an international student. Want to pursue a career in intellectual property law (ideally start with a standard NYC biglaw) first and later switch to entrepreneurship & start up. I am a KJD, double major in Physics & Philosophy. I am not interested in PI. I have a lot of connections and friends in Boston, but I don't necessarily prefer Boston over New Haven as my undergraduate was in a very small college town. I am very interested in Technology, Philosophy and Music. I also got into a MIT Phd program, which I was thinking of dual-programming if I go to HLS. But does a PhD from MIT help me in my career goal?

So the question is: given my background and career goal, is Yale still a no-brainer? If I want to go to NYC biglaw and later possibly to Bay area, will Yale give me better chance than Harvard?


Thank you tls friends!

1. Do you need financial aid or loans? How will you pay for school and living expenses?
2. You will need an H1B visa to practice which right now is by lottery and is probably going to change. (You could marry an American to solve this issue. I hope that isn't rude.)
3. A visa is easier for universities you should seriously look into the work visa situation befor committing to a path in NYC biglaw.
4. What is your goal exactly? I think you can find a much better path for your future than basic nyc biglaw.
5. The idea of doing an MIT PhD and a Harvard law degree sounds insane to me. They are very different types of work. Law school is not going to be like other school you've attended.

[run26.2]

If you want to do IP, a PhD doesn't help much. Especially in realms other than bio/chem, and even there, a PhD has become less of a requirement. Also, if you want to eventually go to a start up, again, the PhD isn't necessarily going to further that goal.

And, I would argue, law school doesn't further that goal that much, especially if you're going to law school on the east coast. I'd consider going to Stanford (probably for business school) if I were in your shoes. You could network more easily if you went to school out there.

[KiltedKicker]

I'm biased but if Stanford is an option and you're not trying to go after the PhD to become a prof, you should come here. IP law is incredibly broad and all-encompassing so I'm not sure what exactly you mean (IP lit? Patent prosecution? Copyright? Tech trans?), but pretty much across the board the Bay Area is the best place to be for anything IP related (I would consider Berkeley over those other schools as well if much cheaper, less prestige but more resources and connections). Also, there are far more entrepreneurship connections/programs here, particularly at the B school, and you're going to make way, way more valuable connections given the sheer number of people out here with similar goals. With your interests this is the place to be, not the east coast.

I know relatively little about Y/H, but you're going to have no trouble doing whatever it is you want to do with your resume coming from either of those schools. I doubt either will provide significantly more resources than the other, and both schools probably have limited pools of people interested in doing what you want to do. Harvard might have more given Boston has a solid amount of entrepreneurship/tech.

Other posters have a point that a PhD from MIT is super valuable and opens a ton of doors, I'd reach out to people though and figure out if having both really opens up doors that wouldn't be open with having just one. There are plenty of jobs you could get with the PhD that don't utilize a JD and plenty of jobs requiring a JD that utilize your background knowledge but don't require the PhD; besides being a prof, I don't really know how many positions require/significantly reward you for having both

[ChelseaZ]

First of all, let me start off saying that I am enormously grateful for having both programs and this struggle. But for me the struggle is real. Therefore any advice / suggestion is needed. In return, I can answer questions for law school applications & proofread ps for those who need an extra person to consult.

I am just gonna list my background, career goal etc.

I am an international student. Want to pursue a career in intellectual property law (ideally start with a standard NYC biglaw) first and later switch to entrepreneurship & start up. I am a KJD, double major in Physics & Philosophy. I am not interested in PI. I have a lot of connections and friends in Boston, but I don't necessarily prefer Boston over New Haven as my undergraduate was in a very small college town. I am very interested in Technology, Philosophy and Music. I also got into a MIT Phd program, which I was thinking of dual-programming if I go to HLS. But does a PhD from MIT help me in my career goal?

So the question is: given my background and career goal, is Yale still a no-brainer? If I want to go to NYC biglaw and later possibly to Bay area, will Yale give me better chance than Harvard?


Thank you tls friends!

1. Do you need financial aid or loans? How will you pay for school and living expenses?
2. You will need an H1B visa to practice which right now is by lottery and is probably going to change. (You could marry an American to solve this issue. I hope that isn't rude.)
3. A visa is easier for universities you should seriously look into the work visa situation befor committing to a path in NYC biglaw.
4. What is your goal exactly? I think you can find a much better path for your future than basic nyc biglaw.
5. The idea of doing an MIT PhD and a Harvard law degree sounds insane to me. They are very different types of work. Law school is not going to be like other school you've attended.

Just to have more information on the table.
1.Yes I need Financial Aid and loans. My family can cover my living cost & housing at their best and help me to pay back my loan later. But I will take out loans definitely.

2/3. I want to do NYC biglaw just because I enjoy the city and would really like to work for a couple of years in NYC. But the worst scenario is that I get an offer from NYC, fail to get an H1B, and get transferred back to Asian office / European office with global payment. Biglaw seems to be the only option that can secure my financial future.

4. I don't really have a very specific goal other than practicing laws in areas of technology or corporate context. I enjoy doing new things and I hate to limit myself to a certain framework. That is why I preferably choose law over Physics. Physics is fun and research is rewarding. But being in a lab for 5+ years seems too overwhelming for me, as one does not meet many interesting/different people in lab. Dealing with electronics can sometimes be depressing. I want Physics for intellectual fun, not a career.

5. I agree....on second thought this is indeed a little bit too much.

===============================================================
What I want, is to secure a nice job with good payment where my curiosity and passion for law, technology and meeting with new people get satiated. In the long term, I will probably not be a lawyer for the rest of my life, but switch to entrepreneurship. But I think I will go back to get an MBA before I start my own business.

I also got into SLS. I have heard that SLS is the heaven for IP law, but also YLS has better chance of getting me into the place I want (more security & less pressure). HLS on the other hand has lots of personal connections that I value. So I'm torn apart.

[Npret]

If you want NYCbiglaw I wouldn't be concerned about the placement from any of these schools.

If you want IP they are all good but Stanford being in California might be a better option.

What are your costs for all 3? Do you have other contacts -family,friends, researchers- that makes one location more desirable? Can you get financing as an international student at all 3?

Congrats on getting into the best 3 law schools in the US. Are you sure you want law and not business right away? If so then I don't see how Yale or Stanford could be a mistake for you.

Maybe you should rename your thread: Harvard, Yale or Stanford for IP law and create a poll.

Good luck OP. You've done quite well and should be proud of yourself.

[ChelseaZ]

If you want NYCbiglaw I wouldn't be concerned about the placement from any of these schools.

If you want IP they are all good but Stanford being in California might be a better option.

What are your costs for all 3? Do you have other contacts -family,friends, researchers- that makes one location more desirable? Can you get financing as an international student at all 3?

Congrats on getting into the best 3 law schools in the US. Are you sure you want law and not business right away? If so then I don't see how Yale or Stanford could be a mistake for you.

Maybe you should rename your thread: Harvard, Yale or Stanford for IP law and create a poll.

Good luck OP. You've done quite well and should be proud of yourself.

Great ideas of creating a poll. Thank you very much for your advice. I am waiting for FA information. Based on previous year's stats, I should be getting similar package from all three.

[T3TON]

To echo the statements of others an MIT PHD is a highly coveted degree. You should only do law school if you know you want to do law. However, if you do want to do law, it is my understanding that PHDs are neither necessary nor particularly helpful for getting into IP (at least coming out of HYS).

All 3 schools are top rate, you can't go wrong at any of them. But for your interests Stanford seems to offer the most. The bay area is really the hub of cutting-edge IP work and the IP clinic has access to all the tech firms in silicon valley. You would get to study with Mark Lemley, probably the most influential IP scholar in the country. You could also take classes at Stanford's graduate programs, including a number of top-ranked programs in science and technology.

It also has a big focus on entrepreneurship. A healthy percentage of its law grads go down this path every year. It has a large alumni network in business and all varieties of institutional support. Also, the law school is closely connected to GSB, which is an enormous boon for those interested in innovation and business.

Obviously Harvard and Yale are terrific and I would not worry about getting to do IP in NYC from any of them. The conventional wisdom is that getting some firms is a little bit easier from Yale and Stanford because of their small size, but Harvard grads don't often go hungry and they have a formidable alumni network everywhere.

[Wallyplatypus]

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[TAD]

Just curious- I thought international students cannot get financial aid from law schools in the US and need co-signers for loans.

YHS are the exception and have institutional loans available for international students. Also, grants and scholarships are available for international students from all (most?) law schools.

[appind]

There are superhumans among us.


OP why do law school at all? A PhD from MIT is literally one of the most prestigious resume lines in the world. Why go into all that debt just to slave for 14 hour days in an office in New York Shitty when you could get a cushy teaching/ research job in physics?

You do you, of course, but a law degree seems weird for you.

op, PhD is in which program?

OP doesn't really say which PhD program at mit he has got admission to. i assume a physics Phd can have a different value than philosophy PhD.

If the eventual goal of OP is to go into entrepreneurship/startup then PhD may be a waste of time, even though it's from mit. there are MIT PhDs in engineering, which is more marketable than physics, who are overqualified for the jobs they currently work at.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Your acceptances raise the question of whether you got into Chicago, NYU, or Columbia with an offer of $$$$. That would be a much better option if you're gunning for NYC biglaw. Think I would just go with the MIT Phd and not worry about law school if I were you.

[jbagelboy]

Just curious- I thought international students cannot get financial aid from law schools in the US and need co-signers for loans.

YHS are the exception and have institutional loans available for international students. Also, grants and scholarships are available for international students from all (most?) law schools.

Not that it's relevant, but CLS also has institutional loans and grants available for international students.

[ChelseaZ]

Your acceptances raise the question of whether you got into Chicago, NYU, or Columbia with an offer of $$$$. That would be a much better option if you're gunning for NYC biglaw. Think I would just go with the MIT Phd and not worry about law school if I were you.

Unfortunately I don't seem to have much luck at CCN with $$$. I got a Butler at CLS, not a Hammy so I think HYS still win. Waitlisted at Chicago, and didn't apply for special full-scholarship program at NYU.

[ChelseaZ]

There are superhumans among us.


OP why do law school at all? A PhD from MIT is literally one of the most prestigious resume lines in the world. Why go into all that debt just to slave for 14 hour days in an office in New York Shitty when you could get a cushy teaching/ research job in physics?

You do you, of course, but a law degree seems weird for you.

op, PhD is in which program?

OP doesn't really say which PhD program at mit he has got admission to. i assume a physics Phd can have a different value than philosophy PhD.

If the eventual goal of OP is to go into entrepreneurship/startup then PhD may be a waste of time, even though it's from mit. there are MIT PhDs in engineering, which is more marketable than physics, who are overqualified for the jobs they currently work at.

It is a Physics PhD. I would only do PhD if it helps with my IP law/entrepreneurship goal. If not, I have to let go though it hurts a little bit.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Your acceptances raise the question of whether you got into Chicago, NYU, or Columbia with an offer of $$$$. That would be a much better option if you're gunning for NYC biglaw. Think I would just go with the MIT Phd and not worry about law school if I were you.

Unfortunately I don't seem to have much luck at CCN with $$$. I got a Butler at CLS, not a Hammy so I think HYS still win. Waitlisted at Chicago, and didn't apply for special full-scholarship program at NYU.

I would take the butler over sticker tbh.

[favabeansoup]

2/3. I want to do NYC biglaw just because I enjoy the city and would really like to work for a couple of years in NYC. But the worst scenario is that I get an offer from NYC, fail to get an H1B, and get transferred back to Asian office / European office with global payment. Biglaw seems to be the only option that can secure my financial future.

4. I don't really have a very specific goal other than practicing laws in areas of technology or corporate context. I enjoy doing new things and I hate to limit myself to a certain framework. That is why I preferably choose law over Physics. Physics is fun and research is rewarding. But being in a lab for 5+ years seems too overwhelming for me, as one does not meet many interesting/different people in lab. Dealing with electronics can sometimes be depressing. I want Physics for intellectual fun, not a career.


===============================================================
What I want, is to secure a nice job with good payment where my curiosity and passion for law, technology and meeting with new people get satiated. In the long term, I will probably not be a lawyer for the rest of my life, but switch to entrepreneurship. But I think I will go back to get an MBA before I start my own business.

I also got into SLS. I have heard that SLS is the heaven for IP law, but also YLS has better chance of getting me into the place I want (more security & less pressure). HLS on the other hand has lots of personal connections that I value. So I'm torn apart.

So so much do not go to lawschool when you have these other options.


1) biglaw IP work is not you spending all this time with creative inventors and helping bring innovative startups up from the ground. It's important work in that process, but what you are doing is not all that transferable with what you seem to want to achieve with your career. First, it's either patent litigation or patent prosecution. So you will be doing much more litigation style work, or the finer points of prior art and technical document drafting. Even in Tech transactions, you aren't really involved in high level negotiations, especially as a junior to mid level associate. (Disclaimer not IP associate so those that are can feel free to correct me). You'll work on different matters and projects, but the actual work for those projects won't vary much. I don't think that satisfies what you want really.

2) If you feel like you'd quit biglaw after a few years and just get an MBA, it makes more financial sense to just go get your MBA now. See lack of transferable skills above and add in the hundreds of thousands it costs to attend law school.

Biglaw makes sense financially when you graduate with not super substantial debt and can afford to pay it off within a few years (because most people don't last that long). It doesn't make sense when your plan is to immediately go into more debt with MBA tuition. Plus you have NYC taxes and general cost of living, which are some of the highest in the nation.

You look like you are locking yourself into debt scenarios right now where you will not have the freedom to choose your own career path. You'll have a hard time starting a business and convincing people to loan you money if you have a personal debt of $200k+.

3) biglaw can just suck frankly. I've heard lab hours are horrendous, but NYC biglaw hours can be fairly brutal as well, and much of that time will be you alone in your office (which you may or may not share with another associate). You will be working nights and weekends a fair amount as well.

4) Do not think that "worst case scenario" for not getting an H1B is simply working in other Asian or European offices of a firm. You wouldn't be qualified to work in those jurisdictions with a JD, so you'd be restricted to doing what the few US qualified attorneys can do there, which is mostly capital market type work. Do you have any interest in that? Cause it's not technology related at all.

So for my conclusion, don't go to law school. Not trying to be abrasive or rude, I just don't think you realize the realities of a biglaw career path, and no one should go to lawschool and hunt for biglaw if the intend to stop practicing a few years in. You have access to some great opportunities that seem to vibe more with what you want to do with your life, and I'd hate to see you look back on your life in 10 years and say "wow, I could have gotten where I am faster, cheaper, and with less stress if I didn't go to law school".