City University of New York Law ($) or California Western School of Law? PLEASE HELP! Forum

[LAndlordlegend]

Hello All,

I am a Canadian graduate who applied to the states upon not being able to get into Law School in Canada due to a poor first three years of school. My final year I managed a 3.5 GP and a 160 LSAT score.

That being said. I have been offered a full tuition scholarship at California Western School of Law ($47,210) in San Diego and a partial scholarship at CUNY Law School ($10,000 USD) in New York.

Costs:
The tuition at CUNY Law, because i am an international student will be roughly $14,000 USD in which my parents have offered to support me vs $0 tuition at CWSL (we are relatively affluent).

Conditions & Reasoning:
CWSL, San Diego - Perfect weather, nice environment. Grading system is on a curve.
CUNY, NYC - Not as relaxed an environment. Grading system is not on a curve.

I do not plan on studying in San Diego/California because my family is in Toronto. The idea is that I will transfer either to a better school and/or to a Canadian one after my 1L.

That being said, due to the fact that I will be attending a 4T law school I will need to produce results of top 5% in the school and if I do not achieve that goal than I would prefer to be at CUNY due to the fact that NYC is more in line with where I wish to practice as it is closer to home (Toronto).

Salaries & Job Prospects:
CWSL - Lower employment rate, higher average salary (Law Firms, Gvmt)
CUNY - High employment rate, low average salary (Public interest, Gvmt)

Career Plan:
My plan is to be working in government on policy either in the US or Canada in 5 years, and working at the UN in 10 years. However I have a heavy real estate base in Toronto and Guelph due to our families investments and plan to be going back to Toronto within that time frame (3-10 years from now).

In Conclusion:
My question is out of the two options, where should I go to best set up the foundation for my legal career and that will give me the best opportunities (ability to transfer, network, connections) and/or experience (happiness, satisfaction)?

What would you do given this information and any additional insights you may have of these schools?

Appreciate your point of view.

[cavalier1138]

You should sit out and retake the LSAT for this cycle. And before you come back with, "That's just the knee-jerk response for this forum," please consider the following:

1. You will not be able to transfer. You absolutely cannot go to school with the intention of transferring. You need to be happy graduating from where you end up. So Western is definitely out (and should never have been considered, because it's a terrible school).

2. Following up on point 1, you cannot plan on placing in the top 5% of your class. So you can't plan on having the grades required for a transfer.

3. Most importantly, you cannot achieve your career goals from either one of these schools. If you wanted to do basic PI work in New York, then CUNY might make sense. But you want the highest of high-level PI, and that means you need to go to HYSCCN, or at the very least, a T14 with a good track record for placing students where you want to end up.

4. All that said, HYSCCN are some of the only schools with that track record, and it sounds like your GPA is going to put you out of the running for most of them, even if you raise your LSAT. And even if you get in, most people do not get to work for the UN. Ever. The career tracks you mentioned are not 5-year commitments. Most people don't even have a shot at them for a few years out of school, even if they go to much better schools than the ones you're considering.

So actually, after writing that, I'd urge you to put some real thought into why you want to go to law school in the first place. It should not be so that you can just do something else for 5 years between stints at your real job.

But if you do end up thinking that law school is still something you want, get realistic about your career goals and which schools will put them in reach.

[joeyc328]

Your goals are not possible are not possible at either of these law schools.

[LAndlordlegend]

Hi Cavelier and Joey,

Thank you for your response and I will take your advice into deep consideration. That being said.

I do not plan on taking a gap year to retake the LSAT and not going to Law School this year. In my mind, if I cannot perform at the top 5-10% in these schools I will not be able to make it in the higher T14 schools regardless. Hypothetically, if I plan to do what I believe I can do then I will need to produce results, regardless of where I go. If I spend a year upgrading my marks and my LSAT score what is the difference from doing that verses doing a year at CUNY performing exceptionally well?

I understand what you mean by not being able to rely on transferring schools but burning the boats (other options) is not a terrible idea (Unless I die on the shore...lol)

I would be interested on your opinion and if I am beyond my depth of reason with these trains of thought.

Further, if I had to go to one or the other which school would you choose?

CY

[cavalier1138]

Ok, in order:

Thank you for your response and I will take your advice into deep consideration.

Great, mission accomplished!

That being said.

Oh. Goodie.

I do not plan on taking a gap year to retake the LSAT and not going to Law School this year.

I didn't plan on getting divorced before I hit 30, but the best laid plans...

In my mind, if I cannot perform at the top 5-10% in these schools I will not be able to make it in the higher T14 schools regardless. Hypothetically, if I plan to do what I believe I can do then I will need to produce results, regardless of where I go.

Your mind is incorrect. If you perform around the median level (or even below median) for a T14, you will still be able end up as a gainfully employed lawyer. And if you're interested in PI work, your grades are often less important than your clinics, internships, and general commitment to the field (which-- we'll get to this again later --you seem to distinctly lack). But your main mistake here is assuming that it will be easier to "produce results" at a T4 law school than it will at a T14. In reality, you're on a curve in both scenarios (except at CUNY, but that school is a special case), but in the T4 school, they're angling to fail out a large chunk of the class in order to keep their bar passage rates up. At the T14, "failing" is generally a low B or B-.

If I spend a year upgrading my marks and my LSAT score what is the difference from doing that verses doing a year at CUNY performing exceptionally well?

The difference is that the LSAT is not on a forced curve, and you have complete control over your results. In law school, your grades are subject to the whims of your professors, the performance of your classmates, and whether or not you actually understand how to take a law school exam in the first place. Only one of those three things is in your control. So you tell me which one sounds easier.

I understand what you mean by not being able to rely on transferring schools but burning the boats (other options) is not a terrible idea (Unless I die on the shore...lol)

Not sure what the hell you're trying to communicate with that metaphor, but I'll just reiterate that you cannot rely on transferring. If you don't go to a school that you'd be happy graduating from, you're making an absolutely boneheaded move that will affect your future in a massive way.

I would be interested on your opinion and if I am beyond my depth of reason with these trains of thought.

I'd be interested in hearing why you ignored the much more important points raised about these schools being absolutely incapable of placing you in the job sectors that you're interested in. And I'd be interested to hear about why you want to go to law school if you ultimately intend on coming right back to what you currently do.

Further, if I had to go to one or the other which school would you choose?

That's like asking me whether or not you should cut off your ring finger or your pinky. You're not going to die from it, but cutting off either one is a stupid decision. You don't have to go to one or the other, so this question is entirely irrelevant. Neither school is a good choice for you.

[ponderingmeerkat]

I'm going to pile on here to add to the good work Cavalier is doing.

OP, what's your actual no shit LSAC GPA? How many times have you taken the LSAT?

I can't on Zeus' green earth imagine a situation where you'd want to explore your current options. CUNY and CW and absolutely, horrific, soul-crushing options that will leave you and whatever family you hope to have one day financially crippled. I understand you don't want to sit out a year and retake...tough luck. That's what you're going to do. You didn't score high enough to do otherwise. A gap year at Tim Horton's is a better long-term situation than a year absorbing near-sticker tuition at CUNY.

I'm assuming the worst regarding your GPA (2.0-2.3), but if you study and raise your LSAT only 5-8 points (very doable...especially if this is your first take), this is what you're looking at for options.

[welcometothefamily]

I still have yet to apply to law school, but there is one thing I do know and feel actually qualified to talk about.

In my current career I work with people who work for the UN, be they freelancers or salaried staff. It is INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT to get hired for the UN. Point blank period. You have to be the crème de la crème. In my field (translations and interpreting) they won't even look at you unless you have stellar experience, have graduated from a top school, or both. On top of that there is a test to get hired. I am not sure how it is for lawyers applying to work at the UN but that is how it is for people in my industry. One of my best colleagues is right now in Cambodia interpreting for Khmer Rouge trials on a 6 month contract and she has been in the business for 10 years + and is a graduate of a top program. She has impeccable credentials and the chops to back it up. I've been in this business for 13 years, have won numerous accolades and even I still just missed the cut off for the Department of State translators' exam but was invited back because they feel I could pass if given more time--and the UN exam is even more difficult. The UN is not hiring people from CUNY unless they have excellent experience behind them--and I went to a CUNY school (for part of my undergrad)! CUNY is an excellent value for certain things; if you want to go into public interest at a legal clinic in, say, the Bronx, you'd be excellent. Or if you want to open up your own practice on Queens Boulevard, sure. I will talk about the benefits of CUNY all day but CUNY law is NOT for you.

You really need to rethink your options and resit the LSAT.

[lavarman84]

Hi Cavelier and Joey,

Thank you for your response and I will take your advice into deep consideration. That being said.

I do not plan on taking a gap year to retake the LSAT and not going to Law School this year. In my mind, if I cannot perform at the top 5-10% in these schools I will not be able to make it in the higher T14 schools regardless. Hypothetically, if I plan to do what I believe I can do then I will need to produce results, regardless of where I go. If I spend a year upgrading my marks and my LSAT score what is the difference from doing that verses doing a year at CUNY performing exceptionally well?

I understand what you mean by not being able to rely on transferring schools but burning the boats (other options) is not a terrible idea (Unless I die on the shore...lol)

I would be interested on your opinion and if I am beyond my depth of reason with these trains of thought.

Further, if I had to go to one or the other which school would you choose?

CY

It sounds like your family is rich enough where a bad decision here won't hurt you. Based on the options, CUNY is the better choice. But it's still a bad choice for your goals. Unless your family is so connected that you are guaranteed a job in policy or with the UN if you can get a law degree, you're going to seriously struggle to get either of those jobs from either of those schools.

Now, here's my blunt response to your confidence in your ability to land at the top of the class at CUNY: Where is this coming from? You didn't do well enough in college to get into a law school in Canada. What makes you think law school is going to be different?

Listen, you might be an intelligent person who manages to pull off being ranked in the top 5% of your class. It's possible. I don't know you. My response may come off as me being an asshole, but I'm giving you a blunt outlook from a neutral observer. 95% of your class cannot end up in the top 5%. That's long odds from a person who, by his or her own admission, struggled in college.

Anyways, I wish you the best of luck on whatever choice you make. I know you posted this over a month ago, so odds are that you'll never read this post.

[tskela]

It is mind blowing to me that you don't think doing better on one. standardized. test. will be infinitely easier than outperforming 95% of your peers in law school.