Penn v Temple (full) Forum

[Today]

Penn ($305,000 tuition and COL) Temple ($82,000 COL). The COL is the max, but I do live somewhat frugally for whatever that's worth. Spouse is a teacher, so only a little help with living costs. $20k in undergrad debt.

Financing through loans.
I'm from PA, but I only have very minimal ties to Philly. I hope to work in Philly, DC, NYC.

Generally, I am interested in business/corporate transactional law. I would like to clerk, but it's not a requirement. I would like to work big law for a few years and try to move in house eventually. I know that if I went to Penn, this would probably be my only option. At Temple, I know that in all reality, I would be grateful for a position at small to mid size firm. Because I currently work for the state and have professional ties in a few departments, I would also consider working for the state in some capacity after school.

169 3.39
So, I knew I would have to do well on the LSAT with my lower GPA. I took it twice 159 & 169. I spent 1 month studying before the first time and 4 months before the second. I took about 30 tests, was averaging 165 and my highest PT was a 168, so the 169 was a bit of a fluke. I honestly feel I maxed out my potential and my GPA is going to hold me back regardless, which makes me think a retake wouldn't help.

I know this decision is really two different ends of the spectrum, but I applied to 17 schools and just didn't find a middle ground. Either I didn't get enough $$ at schools that place grads nationally or I just wasn't interested in working in the region after school. So I went down my list and got to Temple. It seems like I'm taking a huge gamble at either school.

[lymenheimer]

Did you have no other options? Since you want biglaw, did you not apply to Cornell?

[Today]

Did you have no other options? Since you want biglaw, did you not apply to Cornell?

Rejected

[lymenheimer]

Did you have no other options? Since you want biglaw, did you not apply to Cornell?

Rejected

At every one of your other alternatives?

[Today]

Did you have no other options? Since you want biglaw, did you not apply to Cornell?

Rejected

At every one of your other alternatives?

Gulc was next, I got a token scholarship, wasn't ready to risk that much debt for the 50/50 chance at big law.
WUSTL - not enough $
GW - Not enough $

Because of my regional preferences, I just wasn't interested in most T1 schools.

[mdnorth35]

I wouldn't assume that you can't get into a Big Law job at Temple. As a regional school, Temple does hit above its weight in terms of big law placement since it is the dominant school in the region and Philadelphia is a big market. Obviously, Penn is the better ranked of the two, but the reason that Temple tends to dominate the Philly market is that most Penn folks don't actually stay in Philadelphia whereas a strong majority of Temple grads do. If you look at who the partners and associates are at the bigger firms, you will see that there are probably more Temple alums than Penn alums.

Additionally, if you really want to do corporate/transactional work, Temple does really well in the Delaware market which along with NY and California are the two biggest hubs of corporate law in the country. I wouldn't overlook that market, especially if you want to work in house eventually. Plus, Temple also has a strong law and public policy program (in DC) which has been pretty successful finding jobs at places like the Hill, DOJ, SEC etc.

Finally, I know the general consensus is to just go with the best ranked law school you can get into, but the difference in cost here is tremendous. Yes, the Penn scholarship will open more doors in terms of portability to NY or DC, but it will also close a lot of doors for you as well since you will really need to make a certain type of salary to be able to pay off those loans and afford other normal life expenses such as a rent/mortgage, etc. If I were you, I would use the U.S. Department of Education's tuition repayment calculator to help you understand just how much you will be on the hook for paying if you went to Penn at sticker price, try to lay out a decent projection/life budget of where you want to be financially once you graduate, and then see how much you would actually have to live on starting with a biglaw salary in the 120-160 range. My guess is you may be closer to Temple than you think.

[lymenheimer]

I wouldn't assume that you can't get into a Big Law job at Temple.

I'm not sure that's the assumption at all. Pretty sure it's more that at Temple, you have a double-digit percent chance at not having a legal job and maybe 20% chance at getting some sort of market paying biglaw.

[Today]

I wouldn't assume that you can't get into a Big Law job at Temple. As a regional school, Temple does hit above its weight in terms of big law placement since it is the dominant school in the region and Philadelphia is a big market. Obviously, Penn is the better ranked of the two, but the reason that Temple tends to dominate the Philly market is that most Penn folks don't actually stay in Philadelphia whereas a strong majority of Temple grads do. If you look at who the partners and associates are at the bigger firms, you will see that there are probably more Temple alums than Penn alums.

Additionally, if you really want to do corporate/transactional work, Temple does really well in the Delaware market which along with NY and California are the two biggest hubs of corporate law in the country. I wouldn't overlook that market, especially if you want to work in house eventually. Plus, Temple also has a strong law and public policy program (in DC) which has been pretty successful finding jobs at places like the Hill, DOJ, SEC etc.

Finally, I know the general consensus is to just go with the best ranked law school you can get into, but the difference in cost here is tremendous. Yes, the Penn scholarship will open more doors in terms of portability to NY or DC, but it will also close a lot of doors for you as well since you will really need to make a certain type of salary to be able to pay off those loans and afford other normal life expenses such as a rent/mortgage, etc. If I were you, I would use the U.S. Department of Education's tuition repayment calculator to help you understand just how much you will be on the hook for paying if you went to Penn at sticker price, try to lay out a decent projection/life budget of where you want to be financially once you graduate, and then see how much you would actually have to live on starting with a biglaw salary in the 120-160 range. My guess is you may be closer to Temple than you think.

I know that big law with little debt from Temple is not beyond possible. I'm just not counting on it. I have spent a lot of time over the past year thinking about how much I would be willing to pay for school, so I know what it takes to pay back $300,000. I also know the big law turnover rate. I've tried to approach this from every angle, but there are just so many variables and I'm just stuck in the middle.

[Today]

I wouldn't assume that you can't get into a Big Law job at Temple.

I'm not sure that's the assumption at all. Pretty sure it's more that at Temple, you have a double-digit percent chance at not having a legal job and maybe 20% chance at getting some sort of market paying biglaw.

And that's my biggest concern with Temple. I'm not sure how I would handle not finding a legal position after school.

[lymenheimer]

I have spent a lot of time over the past year thinking about how much I would be willing to pay for school

And what was your decision? If the school doesn't meet that threshold, then decline.

[mdnorth35]

I wouldn't assume that you can't get into a Big Law job at Temple.

I'm not sure that's the assumption at all. Pretty sure it's more that at Temple, you have a double-digit percent chance at not having a legal job and maybe 20% chance at getting some sort of market paying biglaw.

All of that is true but here is where I would go back to the fact that his/her LSAT would put him/her very close to the top of the class at Temple. There is plenty of research that shows a strong correlation between LSAT score and law school performance. Thus, if he/she performs at or near that rate at Temple, s/he will be in the top 20% that do go to big law jobs. Plus, the fact that s/he has a full scholarship on top of that, that mitigates some of the danger on the bottom end whereas there is no such protection if you immediately have $300k of law school debt on the day you graduate at Penn.

[Jmart082]

I have spent a lot of time over the past year thinking about how much I would be willing to pay for school

And what was your decision? If the school doesn't meet that threshold, then decline.

At the costs cited above, definitely Temple. Both will place well in Philly for someone with solid connections to the area. Going to Temple will just require that you obtain a better outcome grade wise. Personally, I don't think big law is worth 300k+ in debt, especially with attrition there being what it is.

[Yeezus Wept]

FWIW, you may be able to get some need based aid off of the waitlist. If they are reaching out to you, they may need your LSAT to stay at median for something. It almost certainly won't be much, but if you break their balls a little, you might get some aid.

[Today]

FWIW, you may be able to get some need based aid off of the waitlist. If they are reaching out to you, they may need your LSAT to stay at median for something. It almost certainly won't be much, but if you break their balls a little, you might get some aid.

They were clear, no merit aid is available and my parents' income makes need based not possible.

[Jmart082]

FWIW, you may be able to get some need based aid off of the waitlist. If they are reaching out to you, they may need your LSAT to stay at median for something. It almost certainly won't be much, but if you break their balls a little, you might get some aid.

They were clear, no merit aid is available and my parents' income makes need based not possible.

OP, did you apply early into the cycle, or later?

[Today]

I have spent a lot of time over the past year thinking about how much I would be willing to pay for school

And what was your decision? If the school doesn't meet that threshold, then decline.

My decision was based on my current status. I'm in a $45k/year gov job with no room for growth. I'm 99% sure I want to be a lawyer. When I deposited, I figured the full scholarship was worth the gamble at Temple. Worst case, I drop out after 1L with 20k in COL debt.

[Today]

FWIW, you may be able to get some need based aid off of the waitlist. If they are reaching out to you, they may need your LSAT to stay at median for something. It almost certainly won't be much, but if you break their balls a little, you might get some aid.

They were clear, no merit aid is available and my parents' income makes need based not possible.

OP, did you apply early into the cycle, or later?

First week they started accepting apps.

[Jmart082]

I have spent a lot of time over the past year thinking about how much I would be willing to pay for school

And what was your decision? If the school doesn't meet that threshold, then decline.

My decision was based on my current status. I'm in a $45k/year gov job with no room for growth. I'm 99% sure I want to be a lawyer. I figured the full scholarship was worth the gamble at Temple. Worst case, I drop out after 1L with 20k in COL debt.

Very wise choice, IMHO

[Today]

.

[Jmart082]

FWIW, you may be able to get some need based aid off of the waitlist. If they are reaching out to you, they may need your LSAT to stay at median for something. It almost certainly won't be much, but if you break their balls a little, you might get some aid.

They were clear, no merit aid is available and my parents' income makes need based not possible.

OP, did you apply early into the cycle, or later?

First week they started accepting apps.

OK, that blows my other piece of advice which would have been to reapply again with the same stats, but earlier in the cycle. Either way, good call on Temple. I assume that you want Philly, because I think you'd have been competitive for a splitter school like Northwestern with those stats.

[Today]

FWIW, you may be able to get some need based aid off of the waitlist. If they are reaching out to you, they may need your LSAT to stay at median for something. It almost certainly won't be much, but if you break their balls a little, you might get some aid.

They were clear, no merit aid is available and my parents' income makes need based not possible.

OP, did you apply early into the cycle, or later?

First week they started accepting apps.

OK, that blows my other piece of advice which would have been to reapply again with the same stats, but earlier in the cycle. Either way, good call on Temple. I assume that you want Philly, because I think you'd have been competitive for a splitter school like Northwestern with those stats.

Sorry in my above post, I meant I went with Temple when deposited. I haven't decided yet between Penn and Temple.

[Jmart082]

FWIW, you may be able to get some need based aid off of the waitlist. If they are reaching out to you, they may need your LSAT to stay at median for something. It almost certainly won't be much, but if you break their balls a little, you might get some aid.

They were clear, no merit aid is available and my parents' income makes need based not possible.

OP, did you apply early into the cycle, or later?

First week they started accepting apps.

OK, that blows my other piece of advice which would have been to reapply again with the same stats, but earlier in the cycle. Either way, good call on Temple. I assume that you want Philly, because I think you'd have been competitive for a splitter school like Northwestern with those stats.

Sorry in my above post, I meant I went with Temple when deposited. I haven't decided yet between Penn and Temple.

Ok. Yeah, your decision will essentially boil down to how much you're willing to pay for biglaw. You'll likely get it from Penn and whether you'll get good grades in 1L at Temple is honestly anyone's guess. It's arbitrary and not a reflection on your intelligence, for the most part. Speaking from experience, I applied late and regret not holding out for the next cycle to get better scholly options. It's not worth sticker to me personally to have an opportunity to work a job where longevity is the exception to the norm.

[oliv8518]

I wouldn't assume that you can't get into a Big Law job at Temple.

I'm not sure that's the assumption at all. Pretty sure it's more that at Temple, you have a double-digit percent chance at not having a legal job and maybe 20% chance at getting some sort of market paying biglaw.

All of that is true but here is where I would go back to the fact that his/her LSAT would put him/her very close to the top of the class at Temple. There is plenty of research that shows a strong correlation between LSAT score and law school performance. Thus, if he/she performs at or near that rate at Temple, s/he will be in the top 20% that do go to big law jobs. Plus, the fact that s/he has a full scholarship on top of that, that mitigates some of the danger on the bottom end whereas there is no such protection if you immediately have $300k of law school debt on the day you graduate at Penn.

That last post in the quote should not be considered. There is not "plenty of research" that shows a strong correlation between LSAT scores and law school performance (also insert correlation does not equal causation statement to make myself sound smart). This debate has been had multiple times so I'm just trying to alert you OP to not listen to high LSAT = high grades BS.

I would still take Temple if I was you though, but you're still going to have to study your ass off to finish high there. Everyone at Temple is going to know what the biglaw % is so they will be studying just as much or more than you in their attempt to get a high paying job.

[Today]

I wouldn't assume that you can't get into a Big Law job at Temple.

I'm not sure that's the assumption at all. Pretty sure it's more that at Temple, you have a double-digit percent chance at not having a legal job and maybe 20% chance at getting some sort of market paying biglaw.

All of that is true but here is where I would go back to the fact that his/her LSAT would put him/her very close to the top of the class at Temple. There is plenty of research that shows a strong correlation between LSAT score and law school performance. Thus, if he/she performs at or near that rate at Temple, s/he will be in the top 20% that do go to big law jobs. Plus, the fact that s/he has a full scholarship on top of that, that mitigates some of the danger on the bottom end whereas there is no such protection if you immediately have $300k of law school debt on the day you graduate at Penn.

That last post in the quote should not be considered. There is not "plenty of research" that shows a strong correlation between LSAT scores and law school performance (also insert correlation does not equal causation statement to make myself sound smart). This debate has been had multiple times so I'm just trying to alert you OP to not listen to high LSAT = high grades BS.

I would still take Temple if I was you though, but you're still going to have to study your ass off to finish high there. Everyone at Temple is going to know what the biglaw % is so they will be studying just as much or more than you in their attempt to get a high paying job.

Yeah I was aware that that was not a very strong correlation.

[Jmart082]

I wouldn't assume that you can't get into a Big Law job at Temple.

I'm not sure that's the assumption at all. Pretty sure it's more that at Temple, you have a double-digit percent chance at not having a legal job and maybe 20% chance at getting some sort of market paying biglaw.

All of that is true but here is where I would go back to the fact that his/her LSAT would put him/her very close to the top of the class at Temple. There is plenty of research that shows a strong correlation between LSAT score and law school performance. Thus, if he/she performs at or near that rate at Temple, s/he will be in the top 20% that do go to big law jobs. Plus, the fact that s/he has a full scholarship on top of that, that mitigates some of the danger on the bottom end whereas there is no such protection if you immediately have $300k of law school debt on the day you graduate at Penn.

That last post in the quote should not be considered. There is not "plenty of research" that shows a strong correlation between LSAT scores and law school performance (also insert correlation does not equal causation statement to make myself sound smart). This debate has been had multiple times so I'm just trying to alert you OP to not listen to high LSAT = high grades BS.

I would still take Temple if I was you though, but you're still going to have to study your ass off to finish high there. Everyone at Temple is going to know what the biglaw % is so they will be studying just as much or more than you in their attempt to get a high paying job.

I second this remark. Plenty of people scoring in the 170s do shitty in law school. Vice-versa, I've seen people with bottom-25% LSAT scores in relation to the rest of the incoming class kill it. It's all about figuring out how your professor grades. Also, if given the offer from Penn, I think that you could possibly negotiate with Temple for a cost of living stipend, which would knock costs down to nothing. Granted, not all schools do this (I know that they do it at my law school), but it's worth looking into.