Is GW with no debt a good choice? Forum

[Tyga]

Serious splitter here and was (very) surprisingly bumped up this week to a near full scholly at GW. Rejected/WL then rejected at all T14. BigLaw is my goal, but I am open to some type of prosecution or government work. I am already deposited at GW but having second thoughts due to the negative sentiment regarding GW on here. However, because I will have almost no debt, would GW be a solid choice?

[pattonthicke]

The negative sentiment is because it usually leaves people in a lot of debt which doesnt justify the cost. If you have close to zero debt, GW is a good deal.

[cdotson2]

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gw/

they have a 32% large firm score. Going to GW to get biglaw will not be easy. Depending on your exact numbers it might be your best bet, but I would be hesitant to say that it is a good choice for achieving your stated career goals. You should always assume your outcome will be median, and the GW median student will most likely not get biglaw.

[Effingham]

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gw/

they have a 32% large firm score. Going to GW to get biglaw will not be easy. Depending on your exact numbers it might be your best bet, but I would be hesitant to say that it is a good choice for achieving your stated career goals. You should always assume your outcome will be median, and the GW median student will most likely not get biglaw.

I agree with he career goals comment. It will be tough to get biglaw and you might have to settle for whatever job you can get. but, it does seem to be getting tough out there for splitters, full scholly at gw really isn't a bad choice.

[justonemoregame]

You should calculate your total anticipated debt at six months beyond graduation, so December 2019, inclusive of COL, UG debt, credit cards, loan interest, etc. Don't know your personal finance situation, but I know there's no such thing as a free ride, and there are a lot of ancillary costs associated with attending law school. If you're taking on loans for COL, you *could* easily have 100K in debt six months after graduation. From there, it's an aversion assessment. Are you willing to take the risk for a 1/3 shot at biglaw vs. being under the burden of paying your calculated debt with whatever other opportunities are presumably available to you - within the legal field or otherwise. Willingness to take the risk is probably not entirely independent of your present alternatives.

GW is a very good school and DC is a great place to live.

[gamerish]

What are your numbers? It's strange that you would get a fully to GW and not a single T14 acceptance, even for a splitter.

[Tyga]

Thanks for all the replies so far, it is all very helpful. According to LSN their biglaw+clerkship is around 35%, which to me seems respectable and offers at least somewhat of a good shot at landing in biglaw--would anyone disagree with this? Gtown I believe is at ~45% which isn't much higher, with similar clerkship placement. And if I did not make the cut for biglaw I would be open to prosecution/DA office/government work, but I honestly have no idea how GW places in that realm (any insight would be great).

I also struggle with the "expect median" mentality because I have trouble grasping how different law school grading is versus undergrad. Is making top 25% of your respective class really as difficult and random as many people on here make it seem?

[Tyga]

What are your numbers? It's strange that you would get a fully to GW and not a single T14 acceptance, even for a splitter.

GPA<25%, LSAT>>75% and applied early in the cycle. However, I have fairly significant C&F issues which made my cycle somewhat of an outlier relative to applicants with similar numbers.

[cavalier1138]

I also struggle with the "expect median" mentality because I have trouble grasping how different law school grading is versus undergrad. Is making top 25% of your respective class really as difficult and random as many people on here make it seem?

It's not random, but it is difficult. And it's way different than undergrad.

Let's take a sample undergraduate course with 100 students. And let's suppose that 20% of your final grade is from your final exam, another 20% from the midterm, 30% from papers, 15% from a group project, and 15% from participation (how much the professor likes you). First of all, you've got a lot of different ways to get an A. Secondly, everyone in this class could conceivably get an A for the semester. That's not likely, but it could potentially happen.

Now let's take a law school course with 100 students (you won't actually have 100, but it's easier to use this sample size). In this class, 100% of your grade is from your final exam, which is graded blind. And not everyone can get an A. In fact, the school mandates that the professor curves the class such that only 5 people get an A, 10 people get an A-, etc., etc. So your grades are not just related to your performance, but to your performance in relation to your classmates.

And that's why everyone says you should plan on median.

[gamerish]

What are your numbers? It's strange that you would get a fully to GW and not a single T14 acceptance, even for a splitter.

GPA<25%, LSAT>>75% and applied early in the cycle. However, I have fairly significant C&F issues which made my cycle somewhat of an outlier relative to applicants with similar numbers.

Not to sound like an alarmist, but have you checked to make sure your C&F issues won't be a major burden when it comes time to be admitted to the bar?

[Tyga]

What are your numbers? It's strange that you would get a fully to GW and not a single T14 acceptance, even for a splitter.

GPA<25%, LSAT>>75% and applied early in the cycle. However, I have fairly significant C&F issues which made my cycle somewhat of an outlier relative to applicants with similar numbers.

Not to sound like an alarmist, but have you checked to make sure your C&F issues won't be a major burden when it comes time to be admitted to the bar?

Yup, I have already worked with a very respected C&F attorney. Assuming no additional run-ins with the law I should have no trouble being admitted.

[gamerish]

Yup, I have already worked with a very respected C&F attorney. Assuming no additional run-ins with the law I should have no trouble being admitted.

Then I think there are definitely much worse places to be than a fully to GW. I don't really know much about their biglaw placement aside from the LST numbers but I imagine your odds might be a bit better than ~1/3 if you're willing to bid more heavily on NYC than DC.

[Tyga]

I also struggle with the "expect median" mentality because I have trouble grasping how different law school grading is versus undergrad. Is making top 25% of your respective class really as difficult and random as many people on here make it seem?

It's not random, but it is difficult. And it's way different than undergrad.

Let's take a sample undergraduate course with 100 students. And let's suppose that 20% of your final grade is from your final exam, another 20% from the midterm, 30% from papers, 15% from a group project, and 15% from participation (how much the professor likes you). First of all, you've got a lot of different ways to get an A. Secondly, everyone in this class could conceivably get an A for the semester. That's not likely, but it could potentially happen.

Now let's take a law school course with 100 students (you won't actually have 100, but it's easier to use this sample size). In this class, 100% of your grade is from your final exam, which is graded blind. And not everyone can get an A. In fact, the school mandates that the professor curves the class such that only 5 people get an A, 10 people get an A-, etc., etc. So your grades are not just related to your performance, but to your performance in relation to your classmates.

And that's why everyone says you should plan on median.

Thanks for this! That makes a lot of sense. What do you mean by "graded blind"?

[cavalier1138]

Thanks for this! That makes a lot of sense. What do you mean by "graded blind"?

The professors don't know whose exam they're grading. So you can't influence your grade by being the professor's favorite student.

Granted, there are other benefits to developing strong relationships with professors, but grades aren't one of them.

[Tyga]

Thanks for all of the comments. According the LST, Georgetown's biglaw+fed clerk is 44.1% while George Washington is 35.4%. However, GTOWN has a school funded rate of 14.6% (I am surprised at such a high number, especially for a T14) compared to 8.2% at GW. Seems like there is only a marginal difference between the schools. Would you say this is true? Do employers in DC/NYC look at both schools equally or do they tend to prefer Gtown?

[BigZuck]

Thanks for all of the comments. According the LST, Georgetown's biglaw+fed clerk is 44.1% while George Washington is 35.4%. However, GTOWN has a school funded rate of 14.6% (I am surprised at such a high number, especially for a T14) compared to 8.2% at GW. Seems like there is only a marginal difference between the schools. Would you say this is true? Do employers in DC/NYC look at both schools equally or do they tend to prefer Gtown?

There's a substantial gap between the two schools

I go to a school that is pretty equivalent to George Washington and I wasn't able to claw my way into the top 25% of my class. Believe me, I tried. Also, my entering LSAT/GPA was a good deal higher than the average admitted student. Expect median grades. Might be higher, might be lower, but expect median.

If you're good with the expected median outcome and the cost is appropriate, then go for it

[Tyga]

Thanks for all of the comments. According the LST, Georgetown's biglaw+fed clerk is 44.1% while George Washington is 35.4%. However, GTOWN has a school funded rate of 14.6% (I am surprised at such a high number, especially for a T14) compared to 8.2% at GW. Seems like there is only a marginal difference between the schools. Would you say this is true? Do employers in DC/NYC look at both schools equally or do they tend to prefer Gtown?

There's a substantial gap between the two schools

I go to a school that is pretty equivalent to George Washington and I wasn't able to claw my way into the top 25% of my class. Believe me, I tried. Also, my entering LSAT/GPA was a good deal higher than the average admitted student. Expect median grades. Might be higher, might be lower, but expect median.

If you're good with the expected median outcome and the cost is appropriate, then go for it

Any insight as to what the expected median outcome is at a school like GW?

[BigZuck]

Thanks for all of the comments. According the LST, Georgetown's biglaw+fed clerk is 44.1% while George Washington is 35.4%. However, GTOWN has a school funded rate of 14.6% (I am surprised at such a high number, especially for a T14) compared to 8.2% at GW. Seems like there is only a marginal difference between the schools. Would you say this is true? Do employers in DC/NYC look at both schools equally or do they tend to prefer Gtown?

There's a substantial gap between the two schools

I go to a school that is pretty equivalent to George Washington and I wasn't able to claw my way into the top 25% of my class. Believe me, I tried. Also, my entering LSAT/GPA was a good deal higher than the average admitted student. Expect median grades. Might be higher, might be lower, but expect median.

If you're good with the expected median outcome and the cost is appropriate, then go for it

Any insight as to what the expected median outcome is at a school like GW?

Call in

[FSK]

The expected median outcome at GW is bad, bad news unless you're a CS/EE patent eligible bro.

I had 75/75 GPA/Grades and did top 25% of the class, but YMMV. I've done well for myself, but I busted my ass for grades and networking. Also didn't get biglaw, though that wasn't my goal after a certain point.

[WestWingWatcher]

Serious splitter here and was (very) surprisingly bumped up this week to a near full scholly at GW. Rejected/WL then rejected at all T14. BigLaw is my goal, but I am open to some type of prosecution or government work. I am already deposited at GW but having second thoughts due to the negative sentiment regarding GW on here. However, because I will have almost no debt, would GW be a solid choice?

GW is an interesting place, because if you're at the top of the class (think Law Review), you're almost certainly going to get big law. If you're not, you're going to have an extremely hard time. I think GW tuition free is worth it. I chose a full scholarship over T6, and ended up in the same place I would have been if I had chosen prestige over money. That said, I'm still graduating with $60k in debt from cost of living, assuming I don't use my SA salary towards loans. In my mind, $60k for a law degree from GW is worth the price--even if you don't end up at big law.

[Pomeranian]

The expected median outcome at GW is bad, bad news unless you're a CS/EE patent eligible bro.

I had 75/75 GPA/Grades and did top 25% of the class, but YMMV. I've done well for myself, but I busted my ass for grades and networking. Also didn't get biglaw, though that wasn't my goal after a certain point.

Is GW known for having a significant PI/Government self-selection (DC Location)? Or do the overwhelming number of students come in big law or bust?

[FSK]

The expected median outcome at GW is bad, bad news unless you're a CS/EE patent eligible bro.

I had 75/75 GPA/Grades and did top 25% of the class, but YMMV. I've done well for myself, but I busted my ass for grades and networking. Also didn't get biglaw, though that wasn't my goal after a certain point.

Is GW known for having a significant PI/Government self-selection (DC Location)? Or do the overwhelming number of students come in big law or bust?

The vast majority of the best students to try get biglaw/fedclerk. Many do not. Don't believe the marketing hype.

[Tyga]

The expected median outcome at GW is bad, bad news unless you're a CS/EE patent eligible bro.

I had 75/75 GPA/Grades and did top 25% of the class, but YMMV. I've done well for myself, but I busted my ass for grades and networking. Also didn't get biglaw, though that wasn't my goal after a certain point.

Is GW known for having a significant PI/Government self-selection (DC Location)? Or do the overwhelming number of students come in big law or bust?

The vast majority of the best students to try get biglaw/fedclerk. Many do not. Don't believe the marketing hype.

How does GW fair is placing students into government positions? How about ADA/Prosecution?

[jbagelboy]

Low to no debt from GW with average firm/local gov't atty goals is a fine route

If you really want to be an attorney, I'm comfortable with this

[still]

imo 32% biglaw+fc rate is inflated by gw's insanely high proportion of IP prosecution eligible students

assuming youre not a STEM you will be competing for a smaller cachet of biglaw jobs than the numbers suggest

its probably safe to say gw's biglaw+fc rate is actually somewhat lower than peer schools for non STEM students