American vs Michigan state Forum

[H313]

I know both schools aren't t14.

[sublime]

You should withdraw your apps and retake. What are total COAs? Under no circumstances should you go to American at sticker, especially.

Why can't you work in politics right now?

[cavalier1138]

I would love to work in politics

Then why are you going to law school?

That's not a rhetorical question. You don't need a JD to work in politics. What kind of law are you interested in practicing after graduation?

[foregetaboutdre]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools. I'm not concerned with that, however, American university has pulled me off the wait list, but has given me 24 hours to make a decision. It seems like they offered me no scholarship, and I know how pricy that school can get. My other choice is Michigan state (I'm from Michigan). Msu has offered a scholarship based on merit, and based off my law grades, my scholarship has the potential to be full ride. However, msu is lower ranked and American is in DC. (I would love to work in politics in the future and dc is very intriguing to me). Anyways, thoughts/opinions are appreciated.. I have about a couple of more hours to make a choice.

Are you from MI? If not, don't go to MSU.

If you're from MI and interested in politics...consider calling every member of Congress/Senator of your political preference (pick one) and ask they have any entry level jobs available (or if they know of any in DC) (they most likely will and you won't make much, but it's good experience/work and you can move up.)

Same thing goes for working in Lansing. There are ALOT jobs in Lansing too for state level political work.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

If you wanted to be a lawyer I'd say retake the LSAT
and reapply

If you want to go into politics do not get a JD. Just a waste of time and money for you

[pancakes3]

ever single sentence in your OP is not just rebuttable, it's certifiably wrong.

you know nothing.

but sure. go ahead. ruin your life. AU WCL->Senate->White House.

[CTT]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools. I'm not concerned with that, however, American university has pulled me off the wait list, but has given me 24 hours to make a decision. It seems like they offered me no scholarship, and I know how pricy that school can get. My other choice is Michigan state (I'm from Michigan). Msu has offered a scholarship based on merit, and based off my law grades, my scholarship has the potential to be full ride. However, msu is lower ranked and American is in DC. (I would love to work in politics in the future and dc is very intriguing to me). Anyways, thoughts/opinions are appreciated.. I have about a couple of more hours to make a choice.

So, it sounds like MSU is going to ruin your life half as much as AU. You've got a big butchers knife, and you're trying to decide whether to chop off all four limbs or only two. People on here are pro-limb, but it's a free country! Cut em all off!

Seriously though, unless you're rich, you're talking about accruing about $200,000 in debt in principal and interest over three years. That'll require about $2,200 a month for ten years to pay off. So that's $26,400 of post tax income, call it $35,000 pre tax, every year, for ten years. That's most of what you can expect to make after going to AU. Of course there's always elongated payment options and forgiveness after a decade of public interest work, but you have to worry about the tax consequences, and you're guaranteed to be poor in the meantime. Don't be stupid.

[cavalier1138]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools. I'm not concerned with that, however, American university has pulled me off the wait list, but has given me 24 hours to make a decision. It seems like they offered me no scholarship, and I know how pricy that school can get. My other choice is Michigan state (I'm from Michigan). Msu has offered a scholarship based on merit, and based off my law grades, my scholarship has the potential to be full ride. However, msu is lower ranked and American is in DC. (I would love to work in politics in the future and dc is very intriguing to me). Anyways, thoughts/opinions are appreciated.. I have about a couple of more hours to make a choice.

So, it sounds like MSU is going to ruin your life half as much as AU. You've got a big butchers knife, and you're trying to decide whether to chop off all four limbs or only two. People on here are pro-limb, but it's a free country! Cut em all off!

Seriously though, unless you're rich, you're talking about accruing about $200,000 in debt in principal and interest over three years. That'll require about $2,200 a month for ten years to pay off. So that's $26,400 of post tax income, call it $35,000 pre tax, every year, for ten years. That's most of what you can expect to make after going to AU. Of course there's always elongated payment options and forgiveness after a decade of public interest work, but you have to worry about the tax consequences, and you're guaranteed to be poor in the meantime. Don't be stupid.

Just a small point of clarification: PSLF does not result in a tax bomb. That only happens if you do the extended IBR/PAYE program in a non-PSLF scenario.

But yes to everything else. OP, both of these are objectively bad decisions based on what you've said you want to do. Hell, law school is a bad decision based on what you want to do.

[lawadmin]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools. I'm not concerned with that, however, American university has pulled me off the wait list, but has given me 24 hours to make a decision. It seems like they offered me no scholarship, and I know how pricy that school can get. My other choice is Michigan state (I'm from Michigan). Msu has offered a scholarship based on merit, and based off my law grades, my scholarship has the potential to be full ride. However, msu is lower ranked and American is in DC. (I would love to work in politics in the future and dc is very intriguing to me). Anyways, thoughts/opinions are appreciated.. I have about a couple of more hours to make a choice.

Why not ask American to give you at least 72 hours to consider your options? High-pressure sales tactics don't seem conducive for making such an important decision. I cannot imagine anything happening at American in the next day that requires them to have an absolute decision from you before Friday. If they're unwilling to budge, ask yourself why. [full disclosure: don't work in admissions]

Without trying to sound too harsh, your interests and passion seem to be playing right into American's traditional model. You want to go into government/politics and see American as the way to do so (with GT/GW being out of the equation). They're not offering a scholarship because they sense that you view American as your path to this route, and your numbers are at the margins for scholarship territory. They'd also like you not negotiate with other schools using their offer or vice versa.

I know you're not going to want to hear this, but read the 509s, calculate the entire cost, and determine whether either option makes sense for your long-term goals. You're getting excellent advice in this thread, but you'll ultimately be the one who makes the decision.

[Aristogeiton1]

Yeah, honestly OP both of these are a bad idea, though MSU is 40% less costly of a bad decision.
The best thing you can do is to withdraw both apps, take some time to work and study for an LSAT retake, and then go for it again.
That being said, if you're willing to shoulder a huge amount of debt for less-than-ideal job placement chances, Michigan State is literally cheaper.

[mukol]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools. I'm not concerned with that, however, American university has pulled me off the wait list, but has given me 24 hours to make a decision. It seems like they offered me no scholarship, and I know how pricy that school can get. My other choice is Michigan state (I'm from Michigan). Msu has offered a scholarship based on merit, and based off my law grades, my scholarship has the potential to be full ride. However, msu is lower ranked and American is in DC. (I would love to work in politics in the future and dc is very intriguing to me). Anyways, thoughts/opinions are appreciated.. I have about a couple of more hours to make a choice.

Call MSU today, say American has offered you a spot. Say you want to stay in Michigan because it's home to you and MSU would be awesome and stuff and first choice etc etc. Say American had given you a short clock to make a decision on, and you would love to know if they can consider you for additional funding.

This is what you do right now, if you actually want to go to law school this year. It's worked for me and a lot of other people. Just pick up the phone and ask.

But seriously, don't go to either of these schools as things currently stand.

[gsy987]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools.

I want to make this very clear too...people here aren't saying that these are bad decisions because everyone is "T14 or bust"...they're saying it because these are both two legitimately horrible options with no clear paths towards your goals.

Let's break down how neither one of these options are any good:
AU: The issue with AU and working in DC in politics is twofold: 1. political jobs don't pay much, and given your debt load, you'd need a job that pays good $$ 2. you're competing with 2 other, better-ranked law schools in the area (GW and Gtown) for these very small amount of jobs that you'd like (to say nothing about other T14'ers coming into DC and poaching jobs.)
MSU: I have no idea how you get to DC with a degree from MSU, absent them misreading your application and thinking you went to Umich. They have a lousy PI score and only 53% of people got a JD required job to boot.

Honestly, I get why you're thinking about this. I really do. This is a horrible idea though!

[Paul Campos]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools. I'm not concerned with that, however, American university has pulled me off the wait list, but has given me 24 hours to make a decision. It seems like they offered me no scholarship, and I know how pricy that school can get. My other choice is Michigan state (I'm from Michigan). Msu has offered a scholarship based on merit, and based off my law grades, my scholarship has the potential to be full ride. However, msu is lower ranked and American is in DC. (I would love to work in politics in the future and dc is very intriguing to me). Anyways, thoughts/opinions are appreciated.. I have about a couple of more hours to make a choice.

So, it sounds like MSU is going to ruin your life half as much as AU. You've got a big butchers knife, and you're trying to decide whether to chop off all four limbs or only two. People on here are pro-limb, but it's a free country! Cut em all off!

Seriously though, unless you're rich, you're talking about accruing about $200,000 in debt in principal and interest over three years. That'll require about $2,200 a month for ten years to pay off. So that's $26,400 of post tax income, call it $35,000 pre tax, every year, for ten years. That's most of what you can expect to make after going to AU. Of course there's always elongated payment options and forgiveness after a decade of public interest work, but you have to worry about the tax consequences, and you're guaranteed to be poor in the meantime. Don't be stupid.

Serious underestimate. Estimated COA for American this fall is $76,700. That means the OP would be looking at around $285,000 in debt three years from now.

[gsy987]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools. I'm not concerned with that, however, American university has pulled me off the wait list, but has given me 24 hours to make a decision. It seems like they offered me no scholarship, and I know how pricy that school can get. My other choice is Michigan state (I'm from Michigan). Msu has offered a scholarship based on merit, and based off my law grades, my scholarship has the potential to be full ride. However, msu is lower ranked and American is in DC. (I would love to work in politics in the future and dc is very intriguing to me). Anyways, thoughts/opinions are appreciated.. I have about a couple of more hours to make a choice.

So, it sounds like MSU is going to ruin your life half as much as AU. You've got a big butchers knife, and you're trying to decide whether to chop off all four limbs or only two. People on here are pro-limb, but it's a free country! Cut em all off!

Seriously though, unless you're rich, you're talking about accruing about $200,000 in debt in principal and interest over three years. That'll require about $2,200 a month for ten years to pay off. So that's $26,400 of post tax income, call it $35,000 pre tax, every year, for ten years. That's most of what you can expect to make after going to AU. Of course there's always elongated payment options and forgiveness after a decade of public interest work, but you have to worry about the tax consequences, and you're guaranteed to be poor in the meantime. Don't be stupid.

Serious underestimate. Estimated COA for American this fall is $76,700. That means the OP would be looking at around $285,000 in debt three years from now.

The legend himself makes an appearance!

[joeyc328]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools. I'm not concerned with that, however, American university has pulled me off the wait list, but has given me 24 hours to make a decision. It seems like they offered me no scholarship, and I know how pricy that school can get. My other choice is Michigan state (I'm from Michigan). Msu has offered a scholarship based on merit, and based off my law grades, my scholarship has the potential to be full ride. However, msu is lower ranked and American is in DC. (I would love to work in politics in the future and dc is very intriguing to me). Anyways, thoughts/opinions are appreciated.. I have about a couple of more hours to make a choice.

So, it sounds like MSU is going to ruin your life half as much as AU. You've got a big butchers knife, and you're trying to decide whether to chop off all four limbs or only two. People on here are pro-limb, but it's a free country! Cut em all off!

Seriously though, unless you're rich, you're talking about accruing about $200,000 in debt in principal and interest over three years. That'll require about $2,200 a month for ten years to pay off. So that's $26,400 of post tax income, call it $35,000 pre tax, every year, for ten years. That's most of what you can expect to make after going to AU. Of course there's always elongated payment options and forgiveness after a decade of public interest work, but you have to worry about the tax consequences, and you're guaranteed to be poor in the meantime. Don't be stupid.

Serious underestimate. Estimated COA for American this fall is $76,700. That means the OP would be looking at around $285,000 in debt three years from now.

The legend himself makes an appearance!

Celebrating like the prisoners in Shawshank

[pancakes3]

OP, definitely take out 285k for AU.

[Johann]

probably michigan state. if you want small firm in michigan, MSU. if you want to roll the dice on a new life in the big city and maybe biglaw, american.

[Johann]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools. I'm not concerned with that, however, American university has pulled me off the wait list, but has given me 24 hours to make a decision. It seems like they offered me no scholarship, and I know how pricy that school can get. My other choice is Michigan state (I'm from Michigan). Msu has offered a scholarship based on merit, and based off my law grades, my scholarship has the potential to be full ride. However, msu is lower ranked and American is in DC. (I would love to work in politics in the future and dc is very intriguing to me). Anyways, thoughts/opinions are appreciated.. I have about a couple of more hours to make a choice.

So, it sounds like MSU is going to ruin your life half as much as AU. You've got a big butchers knife, and you're trying to decide whether to chop off all four limbs or only two. People on here are pro-limb, but it's a free country! Cut em all off!

Seriously though, unless you're rich, you're talking about accruing about $200,000 in debt in principal and interest over three years. That'll require about $2,200 a month for ten years to pay off. So that's $26,400 of post tax income, call it $35,000 pre tax, every year, for ten years. That's most of what you can expect to make after going to AU. Of course there's always elongated payment options and forgiveness after a decade of public interest work, but you have to worry about the tax consequences, and you're guaranteed to be poor in the meantime. Don't be stupid.

Serious underestimate. Estimated COA for American this fall is $76,700. That means the OP would be looking at around $285,000 in debt three years from now.

The legend himself makes an appearance!

Celebrating like the prisoners in Shawshank

yeah good thing loan repayment programs like PAYE exist and this person only has to pay back 10% of their salary for 20 years, not necessarily 285K.

if you were pricing a house and there were federal tax credits for buying it, wouldnt that be included in the total price? when is tls going to start pricing in the 10% PAYE repayment program? i dont have time to keep popping into these threads and pointing out such a very basic fact that almost no one on TLS seems to understand.

[H313]

I would love to work in politics

Then why are you going to law school?

That's not a rhetorical question. You don't need a JD to work in politics. What kind of law are you interested in practicing after graduation?

, a *future in politics. That doesn't mean I wanna be a politician right after law school. I still obviously wanna be a lawyer. Also, not sure yet on which law I want to practice.

[cavalier1138]

I would love to work in politics

Then why are you going to law school?

That's not a rhetorical question. You don't need a JD to work in politics. What kind of law are you interested in practicing after graduation?

, a *future in politics. That doesn't mean I wanna be a politician right after law school. I still obviously wanna be a lawyer. Also, not sure yet on which law I want to practice.

But what's your ballpark ambition for your legal degree? You say you want to be a lawyer. What type of lawyer do you want to be? Where do you want to practice? What general fields are you interested in?

A JD does not translate into a political career, so why do you want a JD?

[timbs4339]

I am flabbergasted.

OP, a school with absolutely abysmal employment statistics is using high-pressure sales tactics to convince you to take out almost 300K in debt - a likely lifetime investment - on short notice. This should be a huge red flag that something is up. I'm not even sure why this is a question. This school is trying to get you to mortgage your life when you are perfectly capable of retaking the LSAT. Do not go.

Look, if you want an analogy, this is like when some broker shows you a crappy overpriced apartment and then tries to pressure you into signing a lease on the spot because "this place is flying off the market." Would you sign that lease application? What makes American's tactics any different?

[bmathers]

I say hold of and re-take. Definitely so no thanks to this sales crap AU is pulling right now.

That being said, completely anecdotal story here, but I had a friend who was in the honors program at Penn State, got his degree in engineering. Went to MSU law on a full-ride and got a job doing Patent Law in Charlotte right out of school. He's doing quite well, and this was only 4 years ago. According to him, he wasnt a fan of the area (obviously), but MSU has a big enough name that employers have at least heard of the school before.

It may not help for Biglaw, but name recognition, even unrelated to law, is certainly something to consider - and MSU has more name recognition than AU.

That said, retake. My family and friends thought I was crazy when I retook, but my higher score (158) is already going to save me thousands every year... and I'm still retaking again.

[SirArthurDayne]

Don't make a rash decision this late in the game. American for anything less than full ride is a terrible decision 95% of the time.

[CTT]

First, I know how it is here. Neither of these schools are t14, and I know how some users can get with lower ranked schools. I'm not concerned with that, however, American university has pulled me off the wait list, but has given me 24 hours to make a decision. It seems like they offered me no scholarship, and I know how pricy that school can get. My other choice is Michigan state (I'm from Michigan). Msu has offered a scholarship based on merit, and based off my law grades, my scholarship has the potential to be full ride. However, msu is lower ranked and American is in DC. (I would love to work in politics in the future and dc is very intriguing to me). Anyways, thoughts/opinions are appreciated.. I have about a couple of more hours to make a choice.

So, it sounds like MSU is going to ruin your life half as much as AU. You've got a big butchers knife, and you're trying to decide whether to chop off all four limbs or only two. People on here are pro-limb, but it's a free country! Cut em all off!

Seriously though, unless you're rich, you're talking about accruing about $200,000 in debt in principal and interest over three years. That'll require about $2,200 a month for ten years to pay off. So that's $26,400 of post tax income, call it $35,000 pre tax, every year, for ten years. That's most of what you can expect to make after going to AU. Of course there's always elongated payment options and forgiveness after a decade of public interest work, but you have to worry about the tax consequences, and you're guaranteed to be poor in the meantime. Don't be stupid.

Serious underestimate. Estimated COA for American this fall is $76,700. That means the OP would be looking at around $285,000 in debt three years from now.

The legend himself makes an appearance!

Celebrating like the prisoners in Shawshank

yeah good thing loan repayment programs like PAYE exist and this person only has to pay back 10% of their salary for 20 years, not necessarily 285K.

if you were pricing a house and there were federal tax credits for buying it, wouldnt that be included in the total price? when is tls going to start pricing in the 10% PAYE repayment program? i dont have time to keep popping into these threads and pointing out such a very basic fact that almost no one on TLS seems to understand.

And when you're a 46-year-old with kids and a $60,000 salary and the IRS comes knocking with a $100,000 tax bill, will you:
(a) file tax returns, wait two years with tax debt hanging over your head, then file bankruptcy and hope Title 11 still allows the discharge.
(b) mortgage off all the equity in your home.
(c) enter prostitution (at low 46-year-old rates).
(d) blow your brains out.

[jbagelboy]

Johann, stop.