Scholarship retention: St. John's versus Brooklyn Law School Forum

[NYUBoi]

Hey everyone: So out of a dozen schools, I have narrowed it down to three: St. John's, Brooklyn Law School, and Hofstra. My feeling is Hofstra isn't as good as the first two so I think I am narrowing it down to St. John's and Brooklyn. (Am I right here?) While I have full-ride scholarships to both, the retention policy is significantly different between the two. Apparently this isn't rare because I see that as the case with previous students debating between these two schools on this forum going back to 2012.

St. John's: You have to stay in the top 40% to maintain the full-ride. If you drop between 41% and 55% of the class, it drops to 75%. From the 56% to the 65% it reduces to 55% of the original scholarship amount. If you go beyond that you lose it.

Brooklyn Law School: You maintain 100% of the scholarship as long as you stay in the top 80% of the class. If you should drop into the bottom fifth of the class, you lose it.

Now, in terms of comparing the two schools: U.S. News ranks St. John's (#74) higher than Brooklyn Law School (#97) , but it appeared this has only recently been the case. St. John's has been climbing and jumped 7-8 slots this year because of employment stats among other things. I think historically they were similar. Traditionally though, do people basically view the two schools as on the same level though? That is, is St. John's held in higher regard than Brooklyn Law School or are they basically close to make it that it doesn't matter? In general that is, before taking money into account... Now, taking the scholarship retention policy into account, do you say Brooklyn all the way? Having to stay in the top 80% seems like much less pressure to an already stressful environment. Are the schools close enough that this would seal the deal for Brooklyn?

Personally, I like the location of St. John's (residential Queens) better because it is more similar to Long Island, where I was raised. I am a suburban guy. Brooklyn Law School, on the other hand, is in downtown Brooklyn one subway stop from Manhattan - it's basically city living. This means there's no point in me keeping a car there, the parking alone and the fact you don't really need one. I love my car. So I guess the trade off is in exchange for giving up a car and living the city life I don't like as much I get increased insurance of maintaining the scholarship and not having to stay in the top 40%. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

[NYUBoi]

[merged post]

Hey everyone,

So out of a dozen schools, I have narrowed it down to three: St. John's, Brooklyn Law School, and Hofstra. My feeling is Hofstra isn't as good as the first two so I think I am narrowing it down to St. John's and Brooklyn. (Am I right here?) While I have full-ride scholarships to both, the retention policy is significantly different between the two. Apparently this isn't rare because I see that as the case with previous students debating between these two schools on this forum going back to 2012.

St. John's: You have to stay in the top 40% to maintain the full-ride. If you drop between 41% and 55% of the class, it drops to 75%. From the 56% to the 65% it reduces to 55% of the original scholarship amount. If you go beyond that you lose it.

Brooklyn Law School: You maintain 100% of the scholarship as long as you stay in the top 80% of the class. If you should drop into the bottom fifth of the class, you lose it.

Now, in terms of comparing the two schools: U.S. News ranks St. John's (#74) higher than Brooklyn Law School (#97) , but it appeared this has only recently been the case. St. John's has been climbing and jumped 7-8 slots this year because of employment stats among other things. I think historically they were similar. Traditionally though, do people basically view the two schools as on the same level though? That is, is St. John's held in higher regard than Brooklyn Law School or are they basically close to make it that it doesn't matter? In general that is, before taking money into account... Now, taking the scholarship retention policy into account, do you say Brooklyn all the way? Having to stay in the top 80% seems like much less pressure to an already stressful environment. Are the schools close enough that this would seal the deal for Brooklyn?

Personally, I like the location of St. John's (residential Queens) better because it is more similar to Long Island, where I was raised. I am a suburban guy. Brooklyn Law School, on the other hand, is in downtown Brooklyn one subway stop from Manhattan - it's basically city living. This means there's no point in me keeping a car there, the parking alone and the fact you don't really need one. I love my car. So I guess the trade off is in exchange for giving up a car and living the city life I don't like as much I get increased insurance of maintaining the scholarship and not having to stay in the top 40%.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

[Nachoo2019]

Why not NYU? I mean your name is "NYUboi"...


Brace for impact.

[mvp99]

mods will tell you theres no need to double post. I think you should look up something i think its called section stacking.. it increases your chances of losing your scholarship because they put everyone with free rides in one section.. also those check out lst. there ull see the employment numbers of both schools

us news rankings are irrelevant. enployment stats, thats what matters

[Pomeranian]

Top 40% sTTTipulation is a no-go. You have less than a coin flip chance of being in the top 40%. Stipulations attached (other than good standing) should be avoided.

What are your goals?

[cavalier1138]

Read this thread if you're contemplating taking a conditional scholarship: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=264448

Obviously, top 80% is less daunting, but in general, avoiding stipulations is recommended. The only reason schools have them is so they can revoke a large number of scholarships and get some free money from students who thought they weren't going to end up in this much debt for school. It's a terrible practice.

[haus]

Take a look at the ABA 509 form for each school that you are considering (these can be found at http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org ). On this form you can see how many people have their scholarships cut/reduced.

St. John's appears to offer a scholarship to ever full time student, but takes away most of them after the first year. Feels rather scammy to me. Brooklyn does not seem as egregious, but it sure seems to impact a lot of people.

If you are interested in moving forward with one of these schools, it is likely worthwhile to express your concerns about the stipulations, perhaps they can be removed ( as others have reported success in negotiating away or lessening stipulations)

[NYUBoi]

Why not NYU? I mean your name is "NYUboi"...


Brace for impact.

Did undergrad at NYU, lol. That's why the name. I can only wish I was going to their law school.

[NYUBoi]

mods will tell you theres no need to double post. I think you should look up something i think its called section stacking.. it increases your chances of losing your scholarship because they put everyone with free rides in one section.. also those check out lst. there ull see the employment numbers of both schools

us news rankings are irrelevant. enployment stats, thats what matters

Thanks for the feedback. I did not intend to double-post, I thought I was simply modifying the original post to make it less paragraphs, didn't know both would post. How do I delete one of them?

[Mikey]

Why not NYU? I mean your name is "NYUboi"...


Brace for impact.

Did undergrad at NYU, lol. That's why the name. I can only wish I was going to their law school.

If you wish you could go to their law school, why don't you study for the LSAT (assuming your GPA is up to par) until you get the score you need to go there?

[NYUBoi]

Why not NYU? I mean your name is "NYUboi"...


Brace for impact.

Did undergrad at NYU, lol. That's why the name. I can only wish I was going to their law school.

If you wish you could go to their law school, why don't you study for the LSAT (assuming your GPA is up to par) until you get the score you need to go there?

Not a chance at hitting a 170 LSAT to break the 169 median. "Ranking number six in the country, the NYU School of Law has one of the largest and most competitive applicant pools in the country, and makes an offer of admission to only 1 out of 7 applicants." Could attempt to transfer after 1L year. Same thing happened out of high school, I didn't have the SAT score for it, so I had to get a 4.0 elsewhere and transfer in (their undergrad business school was top-five). Even then need to be top 15% of 1L year class to have a chance of staring 2L there.

We only got into NYU because the person was making a joke about my username that I should go there, so I was saying I wish. It's not on the radar, and it's between Brooklyn Law School and St. John's at this point.

[Mikey]

Why not NYU? I mean your name is "NYUboi"...


Brace for impact.

Did undergrad at NYU, lol. That's why the name. I can only wish I was going to their law school.

If you wish you could go to their law school, why don't you study for the LSAT (assuming your GPA is up to par) until you get the score you need to go there?

Not a chance at hitting a 170 LSAT to break the 169 median. "Ranking number six in the country, the NYU School of Law has one of the largest and most competitive applicant pools in the country, and makes an offer of admission to only 1 out of 7 applicants." Could attempt to transfer after 1L year. Same thing happened out of high school, I didn't have the SAT score for it, so I had to get a 4.0 elsewhere and transfer in (their undergrad business school was top-five). Even then need to be top 15% of 1L year class to have a chance of staring 2L there.

We only got into NYU because the person was making a joke about my username that I should go there, so I was saying I wish. It's not on the radar, and it's between Brooklyn Law School and St. John's at this point.

Yeah I get you, but if you still say you wish then why not try and make it happen? Idk.. But anyways, your OP didn't include your goals, what are they? Also, St. Johns' stips are terrible, and shouldn't be an option. Brooklyn's is still iffy because you have a 20% chance of losing the scholly. Although you don't think you would ever be in the bottle 20%, it can happen and those in the bottom 20% probably thought they would never be there.

[joeyc328]

Why not NYU? I mean your name is "NYUboi"...


Brace for impact.

Did undergrad at NYU, lol. That's why the name. I can only wish I was going to their law school.

If you wish you could go to their law school, why don't you study for the LSAT (assuming your GPA is up to par) until you get the score you need to go there?

Not a chance at hitting a 170 LSAT to break the 169 median. "Ranking number six in the country, the NYU School of Law has one of the largest and most competitive applicant pools in the country, and makes an offer of admission to only 1 out of 7 applicants." Could attempt to transfer after 1L year. Same thing happened out of high school, I didn't have the SAT score for it, so I had to get a 4.0 elsewhere and transfer in (their undergrad business school was top-five). Even then need to be top 15% of 1L year class to have a chance of staring 2L there.

We only got into NYU because the person was making a joke about my username that I should go there, so I was saying I wish. It's not on the radar, and it's between Brooklyn Law School and St. John's at this point.

Never plan to Transfer it is really hard to do. Everyone is working their ass off with the goal of transferring. Also Brooklyn Law School is not free because you still need to live somewhere for 3 years. If you have at least 1 year of a 4.0 from undergrad I am assuming your undergrad GPA is fine. If you have a business degree from NYU I am assuming there are jobs out there for you in that world. Those business jobs will pay more than your job as a lawyer from Brooklyn Law School. (Only 19% of graduates get big law jobs and if you are in the top 19% you are transferring out anyways). If you really want to go to law school get a real job make a lot of money and study for the LSAT until you get into a really good school or someone pays for every second of it.

[pancakes3]

stop pussyfooting around, guys.

to offer advice, OP needs to post GPA/LSAT and career goals and backup goals.

[Johann]

take the guaranteed full ride. the difference in 97 and 74 doesnt mean anything. seem pretty much the same on LST.

[NYUBoi]

take the guaranteed full ride. the difference in 97 and 74 doesnt mean anything. seem pretty much the same on LST.

What tier is a ranking of 74 and 97 anyway? Tier three?

[Mikey]

What tier is a ranking of 74 and 97 anyway? Tier three?

Both are tier 2. Brooklyn is closer to tier 3 but it doesn't matter because they're both peer schools in the NY market.

[landshoes]

LSAT and GPA

[NYUBoi]

I eliminated St. John's. For Brooklyn versus St. John's, they seem pretty close so my prelaw advisor at NYU feels the 40% retention is not worth the risk at St. John's when I have a 80% retention at BLS.

I was pretty much all set on Brooklyn Law School, but then an acceptance came from UNC Chapel Hill. It is lower tier-one, with a ranking in the 30s compared to Brooklyn's tier-two ranking in the 90s.

This is a tough call? From feedback I'm getting I might be better off with Brooklyn if I plan on staying in NY after law school which is very likely. Obviously, there is a much more alumni presence for Brooklyn in the city than UNC. Having said that, if I leave NY I don't know if Brooklyn would have any weight. I am told that in general though, all things equal, big law would go for UNC over BLS.

While I plan on playing the transfer game after 1L, this is very risky and depends on staying high ranked in the class. So if I were to choose UNC and not be able to transfer, it wouldn't feel like the end of the world to me because I would still be graduating from a tier-one, whereas with Brooklyn I might be more upset if I don't transfer out.

I know UNC lands people with big law in DC, Atlanta, etc. Not sure how much weight it would have in NY. I don't want to put myself at a disadvantage by going there either. I just want whichever school leaves me the most options to choose from after.

[rwhyAn]

If you're out of state and plan on paying sticker at UNC, it's not worth it.

[john1990]

I would vote for brooklyn. You have a good chance at keeping your scholarship