UVA vs UPenn (Waitlisted, then offered admission) Forum

[trinarizzo]

Undergrad at UC Berkeley; originally from Florida
Career goals: Larger law firm, or in-house for a corporation.
No scholarship at either school
Family is paying tuition
Tuition is comparable (except for cost of living in CVille vs Philly)

BACKSTORY: I was waitlisted at UPenn and UVA and frankly didn't think I had a chance of admission at either (I'm a SUPER splitter). I deposited at GW and Emory(so I could visit during summer) before finally deciding on Emory and paying the second deposit there, signing a lease for an apartment, etc, and preparing to move to Atlanta.

Last week, UVA offered me admission. I drove there, had a private tour with the Dean of Admissions, and all around got a fantastic impression. As late as the deadline would allow, I put down a deposit, signed a lease, etc. The day after I did all of that, UPenn calls me and offers me admission. At this point, I have already spent almost $4000 on deposits, housing applications, travel, etc without even starting school! Do you think it is worth it for me to give all of that up to go to UPenn and spend even more? I know reputation and ranking counts for a lot, so is the difference between UVA and UPenn significant enough for the financial and emotional sacrifice of (again) switching schools?

Any advice or insight would be helpful. Thank you!!

[Br3v]

Undergrad at UC Berkeley; originally from Florida
Career goals: Larger law firm, or in-house for a corporation.
No scholarship at either school
Family is paying tuition
Tuition is comparable (except for cost of living in CVille vs Philly)

BACKSTORY: I was waitlisted at UPenn and UVA and frankly didn't think I had a chance of admission at either (I'm a SUPER splitter). I deposited at GW and Emory(so I could visit during summer) before finally deciding on Emory and paying the second deposit there, signing a lease for an apartment, etc, and preparing to move to Atlanta.

Last week, UVA offered me admission. I drove there, had a private tour with the Dean of Admissions, and all around got a fantastic impression. As late as the deadline would allow, I put down a deposit, signed a lease, etc. The day after I did all of that, UPenn calls me and offers me admission. At this point, I have already spent almost $4000 on deposits, housing applications, travel, etc without even starting school! Do you think it is worth it for me to give all of that up to go to UPenn and spend even more? I know reputation and ranking counts for a lot, so is the difference between UVA and UPenn significant enough for the financial and emotional sacrifice of (again) switching schools?

Any advice or insight would be helpful. Thank you!!

UVA and Penn are peer schools. Outside of a preference for wanting to live in Philadelphia, no, I don't think you should pay $4k to switch to Penn (nor would I think it should pay $4k to switch to UVA if the roles were swapped)

Eta: I skimmed the first time and didn't realize some of that 4K came from depositing elsewhere too. I feel like you sign leases too quickly lol. Doesn't change my answer though.

[trinarizzo]

I was afraid I wouldn't be able to find anywhere to live because I was so late in the housing market already! But yes, in the future, I will be less hasty in signing leases hahaha! thanks for your advice!

[landshoes]

Ask them for money, then decide

[Redfactor]

I think it's worth the trip personally to check out the school.

If money really isn't an issue, then the extra few thousands to ensure school selection is the best fit makes sense.

Anyways, grats on having two stellar options.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

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[Br3v]

Do you want to work at a top firm in NY? You'll have an easier time coming from Penn, and I would absolutely attend if that's your goal. Regardless of what school you go to, any in-house opportunities are likely to arise only after working in biglaw.

Penn's OCI is 100% lottery, while Virginia uses a hybrid preselect/lottery system. Consensus seems to be that this should lead to better opportunities for you at Penn if you finish 1L with median grades (but obviously you won't be able to be preselected by firms if you do well, perhaps leading to less screeners than a top UVA student would receive).

All costs being about even, Penn is the better choice for most people. That being said, the difference isn't huge, and Virginia is a great school as well. As evidenced by prior responses, most wouldn't knock you for choosing it in this circumstance.

"The difference isn't huge"

There is no difference

[34iplaw]

Went to undergrad in Upstate. Did a pledge trip to UVA. Left while it was raining/snowing/generally miserable. Get to UVA with beautiful weather and sundresses everywhere.

Cursed myself for applying to no schools like Duke or UVA for undergrad.

[pancakes3]

Charlottesville is God's country. The Rock owns a house out in Albemarle.

[Dcc617]

I didn't think there was a big enough difference in employment outcomes to make a difference at the same price. And UVA has a lower COL.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

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[monsterman]

Charlottesville is God's country. The Rock owns a house out in Albemarle.

Agreed. Where does the Rock live??

Penn does place more students in BL every year but it also seems like the vast majority of the class heads to NY, whereas UVA goes to DC/TX/lots of other places.

[Br3v]

Do you want to work at a top firm in NY? You'll have an easier time coming from Penn, and I would absolutely attend if that's your goal. Regardless of what school you go to, any in-house opportunities are likely to arise only after working in biglaw.

Penn's OCI is 100% lottery, while Virginia uses a hybrid preselect/lottery system. Consensus seems to be that this should lead to better opportunities for you at Penn if you finish 1L with median grades (but obviously you won't be able to be preselected by firms if you do well, perhaps leading to less screeners than a top UVA student would receive).

All costs being about even, Penn is the better choice for most people. That being said, the difference isn't huge, and Virginia is a great school as well. As evidenced by prior responses, most wouldn't knock you for choosing it in this circumstance.

"The difference isn't huge"

There is no difference

Don't be arrogant. I absolutely love UVA and Charlottesville both, but Penn consistently places around 10% more into BL+FC, while UVA hires anywhere from 8-12 percent of its grads every year. That's a non-insignicant number of people however you spin it.

As far as top schools go, UVA is one of the best known for public interest jobs. Many of those jobs require you to have taken the bar before you can be hired, hence UVA helps those approximately 30 students acquire those jobs by paying them for a year while they apply.

Regardless, these school are essentially the same.

Law School Transparency Employment Score
UVA: 92.6%
Penn: 92.3%

Federal Clerkships
UVA: 15.8% (~ 58 students)
Penn: 10.6% (~ 26 students)

Public Interest
UVA: 11.7% (~ 43 students)
Penn: 8.1% (~ 20 students)

Large Private Firm
UVA: 54.5% (~ 200 students)
Penn: 66.3% (~ 163 students)

School Funded
UVA: 8.2% (~ 30 students)
Penn: 3.7% (~ 9 students)

Sources
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/uva/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/penn/

[pancakes3]

Charlottesville is God's country. The Rock owns a house out in Albemarle.

Agreed. Where does the Rock live??

He's got a farm out in Crozet somewhere and has been there for a couple years now. Heard about it from word of mouth and it was confirmed by him tweeting/IG-ing about it. Word of mouth also floats out the rumor that Jennifer Anniston has a place too.

[monsterman]

Charlottesville is God's country. The Rock owns a house out in Albemarle.

Agreed. Where does the Rock live??

He's got a farm out in Crozet somewhere and has been there for a couple years now. Heard about it from word of mouth and it was confirmed by him tweeting/IG-ing about it. Word of mouth also floats out the rumor that Jennifer Anniston has a place too.

That's amazing. I hope to run into the Rock on a mountain

[obx]

edit

[chevelle64]

To the above who said Penn has a stronger pathway to NYC, the same can be said for UVA over Penn if the OP is interested in the D.C. area. if the OP is interested in both of these markets, UVA may actually be the better fit.

Other than that, there is no meaningful difference between the two

[TheRealSantaClaus]

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[Wolfpac2]

These schools offer the same opportunities, OP. I'd save your money and go to UVA if you are certain that tuition will be relatively equal. Congrats!

[cavalier1138]

Good info, but you sound pretty confident that those 30 students are all PI gunners awaiting jobs, instead of more generally unemployed graduates. I don't have recent data to refute your argument, but I'd bet that the majority of the school-funded graduates actually fall into the latter category. If you could provide data other than personal anecdotes, I'd genuinely want to see it.

I'm not attacking you or your school in particular btw. For some reason, though, discussions about the employment prospects of the top state schools and GULC tend to devolve into an argument that they're much more PI focused than Cornell, Penn, NW etc, but I don't see the consistent data to back that up.

That sort of pessimism only makes sense for lower-tier schools where students ostensibly don't have any options between unemployment and a fellowship. As was mentioned previously, most T-14 fellowships are specifically for PI, and specifically because the people going into PI positions aren't technically "hired" until they pass the bar.

Frankly, this sort of biglaw-or-bust attitude is what gives this site a reputation for elitism. UVA has stellar government and PI placement, especially compared to Penn, and just comparing their BL+FC numbers (UVA has better clerking numbers, incidentally) isn't a good metric.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

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[Br3v]

Edit: Don't feel like arguing today lol. OP, both good schools. Go where you think best. No wrong choice here.

[cavalier1138]

Good info, but you sound pretty confident that those 30 students are all PI gunners awaiting jobs, instead of more generally unemployed graduates. I don't have recent data to refute your argument, but I'd bet that the majority of the school-funded graduates actually fall into the latter category. If you could provide data other than personal anecdotes, I'd genuinely want to see it.

I'm not attacking you or your school in particular btw. For some reason, though, discussions about the employment prospects of the top state schools and GULC tend to devolve into an argument that they're much more PI focused than Cornell, Penn, NW etc, but I don't see the consistent data to back that up.

That sort of pessimism only makes sense for lower-tier schools where students ostensibly don't have any options between unemployment and a fellowship. As was mentioned previously, most T-14 fellowships are specifically for PI, and specifically because the people going into PI positions aren't technically "hired" until they pass the bar.

Frankly, this sort of biglaw-or-bust attitude is what gives this site a reputation for elitism. UVA has stellar government and PI placement, especially compared to Penn, and just comparing their BL+FC numbers (UVA has better clerking numbers, incidentally) isn't a good metric.

Again, anecdotes with no data.

The reason BL+FC numbers are used is because there is no way to tell if a gov/PI position is a "quality job" that a person wanted and was not something they had to scramble to get. It's not a perfect system for judging employment outcomes, but it's the best one we have at the time.

Again, please don't think that I'm bashing UVA. It's at very least the 3rd best state law school in the country (arguably the best). However, if we rate schools the way you want to, I think CUNY may give UVA a run for its money, since the PI numbers there are stellar.

That's certainly not what I advocated. We need to look at the quality of the PI jobs that people are getting. But it's ridiculous (and more than a little condescending) to suggest that PI/government work is somehow the backup plan for everyone who didn't get biglaw. Because the only possible reason to go to law school is to work in a giant law firm to get paid money to represent the horrifically unethical interests of mulit-billion dollar corporations, right?

I'm going to school for public service. I'm going to NYU, specifically for public service work, even though I could technically get a job at the DA by going to a lower-ranked school for free. I don't have the slightest inclination towards biglaw or any kind of corporate practice.

So the notion that the best system we have for judging employment outcomes is solely BL+FC numbers is insulting to the students who actually go into the law for different reasons. That's the best system we have for judging employment outcomes, if you're interested in biglaw. And even then, you have to take self-selection into account, because not everyone wants to take that route.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

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[cavalier1138]

Thank you for the support. I have no doubt you'll make an excellent advocate one day.





(OP wants biglaw)

And I have no doubt that you'll eventually get fired for not reading a document closely enough (since we're tossing around dumbass ad hominem for funsies).

And even then, you have to take self-selection into account, because not everyone wants to take that route.
And even then, you have to take self-selection into account, because not everyone wants to take that route.
And even then, you have to take self-selection into account, because not everyone wants to take that route.

Using your standards, UVA and Harvard are on a level, while Chicago is clearly the best school anyone could go to. Because who cares if students self-select into PI? It probably just means they struck out at OCI.