Cornell vs SMU Forum

[nonamer]

EDITED:

Hey all,

So I'm in a bit of a weird situation trying to decide where to attend school. I am a reverse splitter with a lower LSAT and a high GPA. LSAT 155, GPA 3.7. This was my second time retaking the LSAT after taking one year off. First LSAT was a 147. I just didn't test well in the LSAT. I am not retaking the LSAT and I'm not going to take another year off. A little background on my cycle, I got in everywhere in my home state of Texas except UT, which was my top choice.. SMU was always my second choice, I never really liked UHLC. Out-of-state offers included OU, UC Davis, Penn state. All out-of-state schools gave me great offers, but I was not swayed. I am also on the waitlist for Notre Dame, which I like a lot, and WUSTL.

Whatever scholarships don't cover will be supplemented by parent contributions and maybe a small loan. However, whatever I borrow from my parents I will be paying back, just not with interest really... If I do go to SMU, I will be living with my fiance and not at home, which will probably put some financial stress on her.

Now to my future preferences. I want to end up in Texas and get something in a biglaw, or something that is semi big. Ideally I want around a starting 100K salary, am I right. Who doesn't? Right now, I only see myself ending up in Texas. I am from the DFW area with all my family living in DFW as well as my fiance, who just landed a great consulting job in Dallas. Also, I should say that I do see this being long term since we have been dating for half a decade.

So, I ended up getting into SMU pretty early on. They gave me 15K a year, which is around a 30% scholarship with their 50K per year tuition. Tried to get them to bump it up and they were not having it. Early on, I was happy to believe SMU was where I was going to end up. But, Cornell accepted in March. They awarded me 25K a year, which makes it a 40% scholarship given their 61K tuition per year.

I visited Ithaca for their ASW. City wasn't too bad considering I have always lived near a big city. I didn't really get to spend much time in Ithaca so I'm still unsure of the city as a whole or its college atmosphere. If there are any Cornell peeps out there give me your opinion of Cornell/Ithaca.

Questions is: Will a Cornell degree help me get back to Texas, preferably in DFW/Austin area ? Is SMU better suited to get me into biglaw in DFW? (granted I know I would have to be in the top half of the class at SMU for that)
Are there any Cornell peeps on here who have had success getting a job straight out of CLS in another state other than NY? What kind of GPA/rank will I need to get a job out-of-state at Cornell?

[lymenheimer]

"reverse splitter is just a term for someone who needs to retake"
-anonymous

Retake for UT, or a T14 with better Texas placement.

call-in

[emkay625]

Chances you live with your sig other or parents if you attend SMU? If you had no rent/grocery bill/utilities to pay for that would make your COL costs low. That would make it sort of a toss up for me. Right now, I say Cornell if you want big law.

[Nachoo2019]

First, you should be answering the questions in the link below.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206299


Second, how in the hell are you on the wait list at ND and WUSTL and in at Cornell?

Something is off here

[Budfox55]

Can't speak for texas, but I have a friend at Cornell who will be heading back to a major city in the southeast. Also met some people there who were going back to California. The impression that I got was that if you have ties to the area (as you do), you will be fine. I don't know enough about Texas hiring to know if Cornell would be better than SMU for the DFW area (though i imagine it would be). With your larger scholarship, I would choose Cornell here. The only thing holding me back would be the SO in Dallas, but that is very personal and would depend on whether you think your relationship could handle the distance.

[Budfox55]

First, you should be answering the questions in the link below.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206299


Second, how in the hell are you on the wait list at ND and WUSTL and in at Cornell?

Something is off here

Geographic diversity?

[BigZuck]

"reverse splitter is just a term for someone who needs to retake"
-anonymous

Retake for UT, or a T14 with better Texas placement.

call-in

I think Cornell would place as well as any other lower T14 in TX, although all else being equal I'd probably rather go to a Duke or UVA than Cornell just because there might be a bit more recruiting events with TX firms etc. (like, I've heard of Baker Botts doing stuff at Duke but not at Cornell)

My familiarity is with Houston not DFW but I'd have to imagine it would be a lot easier to get DFW big law from Cornell than SMU. Like, regardless of grades easy, potentially. You'd have to do quite well at SMU to have the same opportunities an average Cornell student would have I'm guessing.

My concern here is more about how much the OP will pay for Cornell than Cornell's placement into TX big law.

(Btw I've never actually met a large firm lawyer in TX that went to Cornell law and I can think of at least one from every other T14 but I'm guessing that's largely a function of small class size and self selection)

Lavitz will be along soon enough I'm sure.

call in

[Lavitz]

"reverse splitter is just a term for someone who needs to retake"
-anonymous

Retake for UT, or a T14 with better Texas placement.

call-in

I think Cornell would place as well as any other lower T14 in TX, although all else being equal I'd probably rather go to a Duke or UVA than Cornell just because there might be a bit more recruiting events with TX firms etc. (like, I've heard of Baker Botts doing stuff at Duke but not at Cornell)

My familiarity is with Houston not DFW but I'd have to imagine it would be a lot easier to get DFW big law from Cornell than SMU. Like, regardless of grades easy, potentially. You'd have to do quite well at SMU to have the same opportunities an average Cornell student would have I'm guessing.

My concern here is more about how much the OP will pay for Cornell than Cornell's placement into TX big law.

(Btw I've never actually met a large firm lawyer in TX that went to Cornell law and I can think of at least one from every other T14 but I'm guessing that's largely a function of small class size and self selection)

Lavitz will be along soon enough I'm sure.

call in

Was actually ignoring this thread since I know almost nothing about our Texas placement, but ok.

We have maybe 4-6 Texans each year, and I would say half of them usually come here with an eye to get out of Texas and go to NYC. In my year, I know two of them ended up in NYC, and I think maybe 2 went back to Texas, although I'm not really sure since I don't interact with them much. I will say that one of them also had a fiance living in DFW during law school, and it seems everything worked out for them.

But I also know that one guy in the class below me with below median grades actually transferred to UT because he was worried he wouldn't get back to Texas from here. Pretty interesting strategy--no idea if it worked, or even which city he was targeting.

So basically, yeah, you can get back to Texas, but it will involve more effort on your part since we don't really have connections with Texas firms. As for grades, it seems like median would be sufficient for DFW, but I'm basing that partially on Zuck's statement.

[mornincounselor]

I have no clue how you scored Cornell with those stats. Very impressed! I wouldn't retake just because I think you did uncharacteristically well this cycle.

(Already stated my preference for Cornell in the other thread)

[BigZuck]

"reverse splitter is just a term for someone who needs to retake"
-anonymous

Retake for UT, or a T14 with better Texas placement.

call-in

I think Cornell would place as well as any other lower T14 in TX, although all else being equal I'd probably rather go to a Duke or UVA than Cornell just because there might be a bit more recruiting events with TX firms etc. (like, I've heard of Baker Botts doing stuff at Duke but not at Cornell)

My familiarity is with Houston not DFW but I'd have to imagine it would be a lot easier to get DFW big law from Cornell than SMU. Like, regardless of grades easy, potentially. You'd have to do quite well at SMU to have the same opportunities an average Cornell student would have I'm guessing.

My concern here is more about how much the OP will pay for Cornell than Cornell's placement into TX big law.

(Btw I've never actually met a large firm lawyer in TX that went to Cornell law and I can think of at least one from every other T14 but I'm guessing that's largely a function of small class size and self selection)

Lavitz will be along soon enough I'm sure.

call in

Was actually ignoring this thread since I know almost nothing about our Texas placement, but ok.

We have maybe 4-6 Texans each year, and I would say half of them usually come here with an eye to get out of Texas and go to NYC. In my year, I know two of them ended up in NYC, and I think maybe 2 went back to Texas, although I'm not really sure since I don't interact with them much. I will say that one of them also had a fiance living in DFW during law school, and it seems everything worked out for them.

But I also know that one guy in the class below me with below median grades actually transferred to UT because he was worried he wouldn't get back to Texas from here. Pretty interesting strategy--no idea if it worked, or even which city he was targeting.

So basically, yeah, you can get back to Texas, but it will involve more effort on your part since we don't really have connections with Texas firms. As for grades, it seems like median would be sufficient for DFW, but I'm basing that partially on Zuck's statement.

This is a super, super rough and over broad statement but generally from what I have seen in Houston to get big law:

At UH/SMU you need to be like top 10%-ish law review types
At UT you need to be around top 3rd-ish
At T14s you can be a roughly average student (but probably want to have a reason for working in TX)

(again, super rough, I don't want people screaming at me because they know some median UT bro who copped NRF)

I just assume that Cornell would be viewed the same as, like, Penn but my only basis for that statement is "Cuz why wouldn't it be?" If there are less connections or less firms coming out to Cornell's OCI then it might take some extra legwork for the OP but I'm guessing it's still totally doable.

[16to19]

Meanwhile, I got waitlisted at Cornell with a 168/3.7 4 years out of college. I truly don't understand this process.

[BigZuck]

Meanwhile, I got waitlisted at Cornell with a 168/3.7 4 years out of college. I truly don't understand this process.

Retake and figure out what went wrong is the only way you can do

[BeatriceButler]

Based on SMU's Class of 2015 employment summary, 50 grads went to firms with 101 - 501+ lawyers. I considered these people to qualify as working big law.

50 big law grads / 239 total grads = approx 21% for SMU. Considering not many get clerkships from SMU (10), I feel comfortable saying that one would need to roughly be in the top 21% at SMU to land big law.

I could not find Cornell's Class of 2015 data so I used 2014. The 2014 class at Cornell placed 191 total grads at firms with 101 - 501+ lawyers. 123 big law grads / 191 total grads = approx 64%. Considering a good amount of people get clerkships from Cornell (27) you could prob do even worse than top 64% and still get big law.

If you want Big Law the obvious choice is Cornell, although I have no idea what it would be like trying to land something in Texas from Cornell.

With that being said I think the big issue is the SO situation. I couldn't personally imagine living that far away from my significant other (also in Dallas, we have been together 4 years) for 3 years of law school, although I realize that everyones relationship is different. Very tough call.

[Dr. Nefario]

dat URM boost is impressive af. I'd say Cornell here. If biglaw is the goal, I don't see how leaving the South for a few years will hurt your chances to get back into the dallas market with such significant ties.

[16to19]

Eh, I know what I did wrong and I'm happy with my result (in somewhere higher ranked), just think this whole process is funny.

Meanwhile, I got waitlisted at Cornell with a 168/3.7 4 years out of college. I truly don't understand this process.

Retake and figure out what went wrong is the only way you can do

[Traynor Brah]

I am from the DFW area with all my family living in DFW as well as my fiance, who just landed a great consulting job in Dallas. Also, I should say that I do see this being long term since we have been dating for half a decade.

Nothing of substance to say--other than, as a UT student with a limited understanding of DFW hiring, I think Cornell is probably a safer bet for DFW biglaw than SMU--but I was pretty entertained by this line.

[foregetaboutdre]

Did OP actually say they were in at Cornell. If you are - GO. This is totally contingent on you not wanting to retake the LSAT. If you won't retake (for whatever reason; im not going to be one of those people who beg someone to retake) than Cornell is great for you. Cornell places big in biglaw (heh) and will open you to NYC + TX (your home). When interviewing at the firms in TX, just hammer you're from TX and you'll be fine.

Edit: Saw your Fiance is in DFW. For schools reasons Cornell blows SMU away, but being in a LDR (sort of) I know the strain that it puts on people, so that would be my only concern. But you noted she's a consultant, so she's probably gone a fair amount. I wonder if she would be willing to do an MBA at Cornell or something with you.

[eagle2a]

Meanwhile, I got waitlisted at Cornell with a 168/3.7 4 years out of college. I truly don't understand this process.

it happens when you're white

OP, go to Cornell

[Rigo]

Shit that's an insane Cornell scholly for your stats.

[cron1834]

You should reeeeealy retake here. Just get into the mid-160s and see what happens. That's not a crazy-ambitious score, either, you can totally do it.

[16to19]

And when you bomb the LSAT. Thank the 6 god for Michigan and Dean Z.

Meanwhile, I got waitlisted at Cornell with a 168/3.7 4 years out of college. I truly don't understand this process.

it happens when you're white

OP, go to Cornell

[Mikey]

25k/yr from Cornell with a 3.7/155? Whoa! You should retake, you'll have a great shot at some full rides, but if you don't then Cornell is the best option considering you're interested in biglaw.

[jnwa]

First LSAT was a 147, second was a 155. 25k at Cornell is solid. Even with the URM boost you did really well. Even if you were a 3.67 160 URM i wouldnt expect that much money. Fuck the LSAT, go to Ithaca.

[favabeansoup]

Can anyone possibly explain how this guy got more money off at Cornell then he did at SMU? Even with a URM I just am baffled.

Also to start, you won't get Austin. No one gets Austin. You should stay focused on DFW.

(1) Why is retaking absolutely not an option?

(2) Cornell could probably get you to Texas, but SMU has a pretty strong alumni + hiring presence in Dallas. You are much more likely to end up in NYC than Dallas if you do Cornell. I will back up BigZuck in that I don't know a single biglaw lawyer in Dallas from Cornell. They might be here, I just don't know them. Meanwhile I know dozens and dozens of SMU grads in biglaw.

Your comment that you need to be "in the top half" of SMU is not accurate. You need top 20%. MAYBE Top 1/3 if you are a stellar candidate otherwise. Median/below will be working in the smaller shops around DFW that aren't paying near 100k. More like 50-60k if you are lucky,

(3) If Cornell gets you to Texas at all, you're probably more likely to get into Houston than Dallas. Dallas large firm hiring isn't as big as Houston, and firms down there are more receptive to T14 in general. Although you being a Dallas native will help this somewhat.

(4) I'm going to roughly estimate that your total COA for Cornell would be like $160k+ minimum. (108 tuition + loan interest and origination fees + cost of living, probably higher than 160). This wouldn't be a "terrible" outcome if you were comfortable going to NYC, but if you are all in for Dallas post-grad due to personal and family situations, I wouldn't do it. That's a lot of money for an already slim chance at TX biglaw.

I am just so confused. In a normal world, $25k off at Cornell would get you easily into UT with a comparable scholarship. UT would be the obvious choice.

If you are 100% committed to DFW, neither SMU or Cornell at $150-160k+ in debt are goodchoices. SMU seriously won't negotiate when you can tell them you get $25k off at Cornell? You need to mention that in the negotiations with them.

Edit: Take Cornell if you are comfortable with understanding that you may fail at getting back to TX and go NYC. Take SMU if you can renegotiate them down to $100k or less, but don't come out of their with a 20% chance of ever repaying your loans successfully. Or Retake and do your best to get into UT.

[nonamer]

I'll be the first to admit I'm not too sure how I got Cornell and with a decent offer. However, I did have a great resume, my essays were pretty good, an upwards GPA trend, lots of extracurriculars with leadership positions, and I have a unique life story.

I'm not retaking because I dont think I will improve my LSAT. I took two courses and even though in my practice tests were in the 160s, I didnt perform well in the real thing. Also, my parents are helping me financially and their stipulation is to start school as soon as possible given my current cycle turnout. Quite simply, I wont retake.

I tried to negotiate with SMU given my other offers, all better than theirs, but to no avail. They shut me down with the typical reply only stating that maybe at the end of the cycle they might look at my offer again.


Thanks to those who had some solid advise. Greatly appreciated.