Cornell (Half) vs. StJohn's (Full) Forum

[silverdoe91]

Hi,

I took the LSAT last June and got a 167. Previously, I took the LSAT in 2012, and got a 159. My GPA is 3.76.

I have not heard back from Fordham and Cardozo yet, but I am guessing based on their rankings, they may offer me half a scholarship and a full scholarship, respectively. EDIT: I heard back from Fordham and they are offering me a scholarship of 35k a year, which means my overall COA at Fordham will be $60k, which is half the amount I'd pay at Cornell.

I live in New York City with my family at the moment, so going to St. John's/Cardozo/Fordham could save me a lot in COL. I'd like to go away for law school, but it is very expensive and also I am worried about losing opportunities being so far away from the city. Even if Cornell is good at placing students in internships, I'm afraid those internships might be difficult for me to get to because I don't drive.

I'd like to go into Public Interest law or maybe Government, but I do not want to rule out other legal career options such as BigLaw. Ideally, I do not want to be forced to do BigLaw to pay off my loans because it seems very boring and not fulfilling. So far, I got into Cornell with a half scholarship so COA would be 90k, and when you add COL it comes out to be around 120-140k if you count the interest that will accrue while I'm in law school. I don't know if it is worth it to accumulate that much debt if I'll most likely go into Public Interest law. Especially since Cardozo has a good rep with most non-profits in NYC.

I know Cardozo typically has a better rep than SJU with placing students in public interest and corporate jobs, but now since they're tied at 74, I'm wondering if this has changed? Current ATL statistics for employment are higher for SJU than for Cardozo and I hear SJU has a stronger alumni network. If both give me a full ride, which is better to go to?

Fordham seems better than Cardozo/SJU with placement in BigLaw but idk how they are with Public Interest. Does anyone know what their reputation is with placing Public Interest jobs? If I get a full ride at Fordham would it be worth turning down Cornell?

Northeastern is ranked really low, but I like their co-op program, particularly that you get to travel for more than one semester and get real work experience, but for some reason their employment rates are still pretty low. Does anyone know if their co-op program is worth it?

I also got waitlisted from Columbia and Duke, but idk if it's worth it to even hold out hope for those, especially since their scholarship funds will be depleted by that time. I got into UCLA too, but the amount they're offering is not nearly enough for me to consider relocating to California (less than 10k a year and I have no ties in California, although I do like their weather better.)

My first deposit for Cornell and St. John's is due on May 9th. Please let me know what you think I should do!

[Dcc617]

Night and day employment outcomes. Cornell is 100% right choice. Go to the law school transparency website. Cornell places two-thirds of its class in big law or federal clerkships. St. John's places 16%, and gives you a little more than two-thirds of a chance at getting a job as an attorney.

[silverdoe91]

Night and day employment outcomes. Cornell is 100% right choice. Go to the law school transparency website. Cornell places two-thirds of its class in big law or federal clerkships. St. John's places 16%, and gives you a little more than two-thirds of a chance at getting a job as an attorney.

Yes, but what about Public Interest employment?

[deepseapartners]

Night and day employment outcomes. Cornell is 100% right choice. Go to the law school transparency website. Cornell places two-thirds of its class in big law or federal clerkships. St. John's places 16%, and gives you a little more than two-thirds of a chance at getting a job as an attorney.

Yes, but what about Public Interest employment?

If you want it at Cornell, you can get it. None of your other outcomes are even competitive - choosing St. Johns would be shockingly short-sighted.

[Dcc617]

Night and day employment outcomes. Cornell is 100% right choice. Go to the law school transparency website. Cornell places two-thirds of its class in big law or federal clerkships. St. John's places 16%, and gives you a little more than two-thirds of a chance at getting a job as an attorney.

Yes, but what about Public Interest employment?

Ok, so around these parts people use federal clerkships and big law placement as a proxy for overall placement power because they are the toughest jobs to get. That is to say, if your school places really well in those two categories, then jobs overall are easier to get.

The way that you're judging schools seems poorly thought out to me. Ranking don't really matter. Special programs don't really matter. Cornel has way better employment outcomes than any of the other schools you're considering, and a half scholly isn't a bad outcome.

Spend some time with law school transparency. Then make a decision.

[HonestAdvice]

Cornell, not close. Also factor in that the cost of living is significantly less, about 5-10k/year. Nobody from St. Johns would say St. Johns with a straight face. After COL, it's probably 50-60k more, which is not a small amount of money, but isn't substantial enough to justify SJU here. There's also the cost of investing 3 years of your life, which should factor in, though only you could price the value of 3 years of your life. Point is it's not 0 vs. x. It's the value of 3 years + COL vs. X + 3 years + COL.

[silverdoe91]

Night and day employment outcomes. Cornell is 100% right choice. Go to the law school transparency website. Cornell places two-thirds of its class in big law or federal clerkships. St. John's places 16%, and gives you a little more than two-thirds of a chance at getting a job as an attorney.

Yes, but what about Public Interest employment?

If you want it at Cornell, you can get it. None of your other outcomes are even competitive - choosing St. Johns would be shockingly short-sighted.

Yes, but I don't want to be stuck with 140k in loans at a PI job, when I know plenty of people who work in non-profits in NYC with degrees from Cardozo & CUNY who have $0 debt.

[silverdoe91]

Cornell, not close. Also factor in that the cost of living is significantly less, about 5-10k/year. Nobody from St. Johns would say St. Johns with a straight face. After COL, it's probably 50-60k more, which is not a small amount of money, but isn't substantial enough to justify SJU here. There's also the cost of investing 3 years of your life, which should factor in, though only you could price the value of 3 years of your life. Point is it's not 0 vs. x. It's the value of 3 years + COL vs. X + 3 years + COL.

I'm living with my parents so COL for all schools in NYC including SJU would be $0.

[Nachoo2019]

Cornell, not close. Also factor in that the cost of living is significantly less, about 5-10k/year. Nobody from St. Johns would say St. Johns with a straight face. After COL, it's probably 50-60k more, which is not a small amount of money, but isn't substantial enough to justify SJU here. There's also the cost of investing 3 years of your life, which should factor in, though only you could price the value of 3 years of your life. Point is it's not 0 vs. x. It's the value of 3 years + COL vs. X + 3 years + COL.

I'm living with my parents so COL for all schools in NYC including SJU would be $0.

If you were debating full at Fordham with free COL vs. Cornell then Fordham would be the choice. But even at a $0 COA SJU is not worth it when Cornell at $120k is on the table IMO

[elterrible78]

Night and day employment outcomes. Cornell is 100% right choice. Go to the law school transparency website. Cornell places two-thirds of its class in big law or federal clerkships. St. John's places 16%, and gives you a little more than two-thirds of a chance at getting a job as an attorney.

Yes, but what about Public Interest employment?

If you want it at Cornell, you can get it. None of your other outcomes are even competitive - choosing St. Johns would be shockingly short-sighted.

Yes, but I don't want to be stuck with 140k in loans at a PI job, when I know plenty of people who work in non-profits in NYC with degrees from Cardozo & CUNY who have $0 debt.

Everyone on this site is going to tell you Cornell, and it's not close.

People frequently pose questions similar to yours, and despite everyone telling them "Option A and it's not even close," they insist on telling us all why we're 100% wrong. Which makes me wonder why they ask in the first place if they already know the answer for sure.

Not saying you're on of those people, but that's the way it's shaping up.

[deepseapartners]

Yes, but I don't want to be stuck with 140k in loans at a PI job, when I know plenty of people who work in non-profits in NYC with degrees from Cardozo & CUNY who have $0 debt.

You said in your original post that you don't know for sure if you want to end up working in PI. You also mentioned that you were interested in government, which I assume meant AUSA or Federal Agency jobs, and that you didn't want to foreclose the possibility of Biglaw. Also, you really, really don't want to base your decision on where to attend law school on the people you know - the legal market was very different even 15 years ago, and most of the people you know that went to Cardozo and now work at non-profits in NYC probably had to claw tooth-and-nail to have a shot at those positions.

[silverdoe91]

Cornell, not close. Also factor in that the cost of living is significantly less, about 5-10k/year. Nobody from St. Johns would say St. Johns with a straight face. After COL, it's probably 50-60k more, which is not a small amount of money, but isn't substantial enough to justify SJU here. There's also the cost of investing 3 years of your life, which should factor in, though only you could price the value of 3 years of your life. Point is it's not 0 vs. x. It's the value of 3 years + COL vs. X + 3 years + COL.

I'm living with my parents so COL for all schools in NYC including SJU would be $0.

If you were debating full at Fordham with free COL vs. Cornell then Fordham would be the choice. But even at a $0 COA SJU is not worth it when Cornell at $120k is on the table IMO

Thanks for considering all the options and giving a thorough response! I probably will consider Fordham if they shell out a full ride. However, idk how well their reputation is with Public Interest law. Do you have any insight on that?

[silverdoe91]

Yes, but I don't want to be stuck with 140k in loans at a PI job, when I know plenty of people who work in non-profits in NYC with degrees from Cardozo & CUNY who have $0 debt.

You said in your original post that you don't know for sure if you want to end up working in PI. You also mentioned that you were interested in government, which I assume meant AUSA or Federal Agency jobs, and that you didn't want to foreclose the possibility of Biglaw. Also, you really, really don't want to base your decision on where to attend law school on the people you know - the legal market was very different even 15 years ago, and most of the people you know that went to Cardozo and now work at non-profits in NYC probably had to claw tooth-and-nail to have a shot at those positions.

The people I know got their jobs maybe 5 years ago, so not too long ago. However, some of them did go to Ivies for undergrad so idk if that factors in (I did not go to an Ivy for undergrad.)

[HonestAdvice]

Night and day employment outcomes. Cornell is 100% right choice. Go to the law school transparency website. Cornell places two-thirds of its class in big law or federal clerkships. St. John's places 16%, and gives you a little more than two-thirds of a chance at getting a job as an attorney.

Yes, but what about Public Interest employment?

If you want it at Cornell, you can get it. None of your other outcomes are even competitive - choosing St. Johns would be shockingly short-sighted.

Yes, but I don't want to be stuck with 140k in loans at a PI job, when I know plenty of people who work in non-profits in NYC with degrees from Cardozo & CUNY who have $0 debt.

Everyone on this site is going to tell you Cornell, and it's not close.

People frequently pose questions similar to yours, and despite everyone telling them "Option A and it's not even close," they insist on telling us all why we're 100% wrong. Which makes me wonder why they ask in the first place if they already know the answer for sure.

Not saying you're on of those people, but that's the way it's shaping up.

It could also be that he or she is responsible. Even if you're leaning one way you'd still want to evaluate counterarguments and whether the side has opposing strength. I agree it's Cornell, not close, but these questions could just as likely reflect a mature analysis of the pros/cons of a big decision.

[Dcc617]

So, you may know some grads at the PI jobs at 0 debt. However, they are atypical. SJU's employment score at LST is 70%. That means that only 70% of their grads get any legal job at all. 17% get PI, 14.5% get big law, and 2% get federal clerkships. That means that around top third of the class gets any of these jobs. Are you willing to wager your future career on that?

Now, Cornell has a 90% employment score. 63% go biglaw, 4% get federal clerkships, and 12% get public interest. Cornell also has PILIPP II for PI people.

So assuming median at either school, this is a no brainer. Hell, assuming top-third at SJU and below median at Cornell is a no-brainer. Don't be obstinate, Cornell at a half discount is a great option.

[Nachoo2019]

Cornell, not close. Also factor in that the cost of living is significantly less, about 5-10k/year. Nobody from St. Johns would say St. Johns with a straight face. After COL, it's probably 50-60k more, which is not a small amount of money, but isn't substantial enough to justify SJU here. There's also the cost of investing 3 years of your life, which should factor in, though only you could price the value of 3 years of your life. Point is it's not 0 vs. x. It's the value of 3 years + COL vs. X + 3 years + COL.

I'm living with my parents so COL for all schools in NYC including SJU would be $0.

If you were debating full at Fordham with free COL vs. Cornell then Fordham would be the choice. But even at a $0 COA SJU is not worth it when Cornell at $120k is on the table IMO

Thanks for considering all the options and giving a thorough response! I probably will consider Fordham if they shell out a full ride. However, idk how well their reputation is with Public Interest law. Do you have any insight on that?

I would second what DCC said. Even though you want PI and Cornell is a biglaw farm, it will still give you far better PI options like BIG FED and others. Federal jobs are highly selective these days and the T-14 bump will help immensely. The reason Cornell does not place as high is PI positions is partially due to self selection. Many more kids go to Cornell for Biglaw than PI. You will still have significantly better PI options from Cornell. Hands down.

Edit: scooped. DCC said everything I wanted to just in a much better way

[silverdoe91]

So, you may know some grads at the PI jobs at 0 debt. However, they are atypical. SJU's employment score at LST is 70%. That means that only 70% of their grads get any legal job at all. 17% get PI, 14.5% get big law, and 2% get federal clerkships. That means that around top third of the class gets any of these jobs. Are you willing to wager your future career on that?

Now, Cornell has a 90% employment score. 63% go biglaw, 4% get federal clerkships, and 12% get public interest. Cornell also has PILIPP II for PI people.

So assuming median at either school, this is a no brainer. Hell, assuming top-third at SJU and below median at Cornell is a no-brainer. Don't be obstinate, Cornell at a half discount is a great option.

How is Cornell's PILIPP program? I don't want to be stuck in PI for 10 years or have the same salary just to be eligible for the program. Some law school repayment programs require you to be employed at a very specific set of organizations (not all qualify) for 10 years at a certain salary. I don't want to rendered ineligible for the program because the organization is not qualified, or my salary went up too high, or I stopped working in PI bc I got tired of it.

Also, you seem to have a very strong opinion on this. What is your background in this?

[silverdoe91]

Night and day employment outcomes. Cornell is 100% right choice. Go to the law school transparency website. Cornell places two-thirds of its class in big law or federal clerkships. St. John's places 16%, and gives you a little more than two-thirds of a chance at getting a job as an attorney.

Yes, but what about Public Interest employment?

If you want it at Cornell, you can get it. None of your other outcomes are even competitive - choosing St. Johns would be shockingly short-sighted.

Yes, but I don't want to be stuck with 140k in loans at a PI job, when I know plenty of people who work in non-profits in NYC with degrees from Cardozo & CUNY who have $0 debt.

Everyone on this site is going to tell you Cornell, and it's not close.

People frequently pose questions similar to yours, and despite everyone telling them "Option A and it's not even close," they insist on telling us all why we're 100% wrong. Which makes me wonder why they ask in the first place if they already know the answer for sure.

Not saying you're on of those people, but that's the way it's shaping up.

It could also be that he or she is responsible. Even if you're leaning one way you'd still want to evaluate counterarguments and whether the side has opposing strength. I agree it's Cornell, not close, but these questions could just as likely reflect a mature analysis of the pros/cons of a big decision.

Yes, exactly, thank you. I only meant to have the poster consider other factors, such as cost, which is a big factor for me personally.

[Dcc617]

So, you may know some grads at the PI jobs at 0 debt. However, they are atypical. SJU's employment score at LST is 70%. That means that only 70% of their grads get any legal job at all. 17% get PI, 14.5% get big law, and 2% get federal clerkships. That means that around top third of the class gets any of these jobs. Are you willing to wager your future career on that?

Now, Cornell has a 90% employment score. 63% go biglaw, 4% get federal clerkships, and 12% get public interest. Cornell also has PILIPP II for PI people.

So assuming median at either school, this is a no brainer. Hell, assuming top-third at SJU and below median at Cornell is a no-brainer. Don't be obstinate, Cornell at a half discount is a great option.

How is Cornell's PILIPP program? I don't want to be stuck in PI for 10 years or have the same salary just to be eligible for the program. Some law school repayment programs require you to be employed at a very specific set of organizations (not all qualify) for 10 years at a certain salary. I don't want to rendered ineligible for the program because the organization is not qualified, or my salary went up too high, or I stopped working in PI bc I got tired of it.

Also, you seem to have a very strong opinion on this. What is your background in this?

I'm changing my vote. Follow your heart and all of your dreams will come true.

[Mikey]

Cornell wtf

[Nachoo2019]

So, you may know some grads at the PI jobs at 0 debt. However, they are atypical. SJU's employment score at LST is 70%. That means that only 70% of their grads get any legal job at all. 17% get PI, 14.5% get big law, and 2% get federal clerkships. That means that around top third of the class gets any of these jobs. Are you willing to wager your future career on that?

Now, Cornell has a 90% employment score. 63% go biglaw, 4% get federal clerkships, and 12% get public interest. Cornell also has PILIPP II for PI people.

So assuming median at either school, this is a no brainer. Hell, assuming top-third at SJU and below median at Cornell is a no-brainer. Don't be obstinate, Cornell at a half discount is a great option.

How is Cornell's PILIPP program? I don't want to be stuck in PI for 10 years or have the same salary just to be eligible for the program. Some law school repayment programs require you to be employed at a very specific set of organizations (not all qualify) for 10 years at a certain salary. I don't want to rendered ineligible for the program because the organization is not qualified, or my salary went up too high, or I stopped working in PI bc I got tired of it.
Also, you seem to have a very strong opinion on this. What is your background in this?

I'm changing my vote. Follow your heart and all of your dreams will come true.

If you even have a distant thought in the back of your head that you will "get tired of PI" then you would be foolish to take anything other than Cornell.

[silverdoe91]

Cornell, not close. Also factor in that the cost of living is significantly less, about 5-10k/year. Nobody from St. Johns would say St. Johns with a straight face. After COL, it's probably 50-60k more, which is not a small amount of money, but isn't substantial enough to justify SJU here. There's also the cost of investing 3 years of your life, which should factor in, though only you could price the value of 3 years of your life. Point is it's not 0 vs. x. It's the value of 3 years + COL vs. X + 3 years + COL.

I'm living with my parents so COL for all schools in NYC including SJU would be $0.

If you were debating full at Fordham with free COL vs. Cornell then Fordham would be the choice. But even at a $0 COA SJU is not worth it when Cornell at $120k is on the table IMO

Thanks for considering all the options and giving a thorough response! I probably will consider Fordham if they shell out a full ride. However, idk how well their reputation is with Public Interest law. Do you have any insight on that?

I would second what DCC said. Even though you want PI and Cornell is a biglaw farm, it will still give you far better PI options like BIG FED and others. Federal jobs are highly selective these days and the T-14 bump will help immensely. The reason Cornell does not place as high is PI positions is partially due to self selection. Many more kids go to Cornell for Biglaw than PI. You will still have significantly better PI options from Cornell. Hands down.

Edit: scooped. DCC said everything I wanted to just in a much better way

But maybe the reason why not a lot of Cornell grads go into PI is because people who do want to go into that field avoid Cornell because they do not want to incur the large debt.

[silverdoe91]

So, you may know some grads at the PI jobs at 0 debt. However, they are atypical. SJU's employment score at LST is 70%. That means that only 70% of their grads get any legal job at all. 17% get PI, 14.5% get big law, and 2% get federal clerkships. That means that around top third of the class gets any of these jobs. Are you willing to wager your future career on that?

Now, Cornell has a 90% employment score. 63% go biglaw, 4% get federal clerkships, and 12% get public interest. Cornell also has PILIPP II for PI people.

So assuming median at either school, this is a no brainer. Hell, assuming top-third at SJU and below median at Cornell is a no-brainer. Don't be obstinate, Cornell at a half discount is a great option.

How is Cornell's PILIPP program? I don't want to be stuck in PI for 10 years or have the same salary just to be eligible for the program. Some law school repayment programs require you to be employed at a very specific set of organizations (not all qualify) for 10 years at a certain salary. I don't want to rendered ineligible for the program because the organization is not qualified, or my salary went up too high, or I stopped working in PI bc I got tired of it.
Also, you seem to have a very strong opinion on this. What is your background in this?

I'm changing my vote. Follow your heart and all of your dreams will come true.

If you even have a distant thought in the back of your head that you will "get tired of PI" then you would be foolish to take anything other than Cornell.

I know some people from Cardozo/SJU who got BigLaw jobs though. Granted they may have been at the top of their class, but maybe that extra hard work is worth it if I'll be saving 140k in the long term?

[Nachoo2019]

So, you may know some grads at the PI jobs at 0 debt. However, they are atypical. SJU's employment score at LST is 70%. That means that only 70% of their grads get any legal job at all. 17% get PI, 14.5% get big law, and 2% get federal clerkships. That means that around top third of the class gets any of these jobs. Are you willing to wager your future career on that?

Now, Cornell has a 90% employment score. 63% go biglaw, 4% get federal clerkships, and 12% get public interest. Cornell also has PILIPP II for PI people.

So assuming median at either school, this is a no brainer. Hell, assuming top-third at SJU and below median at Cornell is a no-brainer. Don't be obstinate, Cornell at a half discount is a great option.

How is Cornell's PILIPP program? I don't want to be stuck in PI for 10 years or have the same salary just to be eligible for the program. Some law school repayment programs require you to be employed at a very specific set of organizations (not all qualify) for 10 years at a certain salary. I don't want to rendered ineligible for the program because the organization is not qualified, or my salary went up too high, or I stopped working in PI bc I got tired of it.
Also, you seem to have a very strong opinion on this. What is your background in this?

I'm changing my vote. Follow your heart and all of your dreams will come true.

If you even have a distant thought in the back of your head that you will "get tired of PI" then you would be foolish to take anything other than Cornell.

I know some people from Cardozo/SJU who got BigLaw jobs though. Granted they may have been at the top of their class, but maybe that extra hard work is worth it if I'll be saving 140k in the long term?

YES.

[Barack O'Drama]

Like everyone else has said, and 100% of the votes as of now point to:

If you want a chance at meaningful employment take Cornell.

Anecdote: I know a girl who attended St. Johns graduated in the top-half of her class. Took the bar. She got her real estate license within a year after because despite being smart, good looking, and growing up and having ties in Brooklyn, she could not find a job as a lawyer at all. Granted she only tried to really look for the better part of a year..but damn!

If you don't want to retake, Cornell seems like the only reasonable option. They place really well in NYC Big Law and I'm pretty sure you could get a gig in PI. Something else to consider is the far reaching name of Cornell which allows you to get jobs other places if you so choose. You never really know for sure where you'll want to practice and what until you've actually gone to law school. Just some stuff to consider.

Either way, congrats on your chance to go to a good law school.