Tax LLM: NYU v. GULC Forum

[TaxLLM2016]

I know that NYU is conventionally the gold standard for Tax LLM, so if all else being equal, the answer is simple and just go to NYU.

Here is my situation, I currently live and work in DC. I went to a T25 law school in the Midwest, and am bar in Illinois and DC. My long term goal is to move back to Chicago one day, but I am open to living in DC long term as well. I do not see myself living in NY unless it is necessitated by a job. My long term goal is to go in house, but in the short run, I am happy to work in a firm building up transactional experiences.

So this is what I am debating, although I know NYU is by far the best program in the field, going to NYU would require moving to NY. Further, I have no desire to sit for the NY bar (or another state bar in general) if I can help it. Of course, if I ended up getting a job in NY and no where else, I would not have a choice but to sit for the bar again, but because I am already bar in DC, that is one more compelling reason to stay in the area.

Therefore, my question is the following: is the gap between NYU and GULC so large that there is no comparison and one should always choose NYU given the choice?

Please direct the discussion toward the merit between attending one of these two schools, and not as to whether I should even get a tax LLM at all. Thanks in advance!

[twenty]

I'm afraid I don't have a lot to offer on the debate between NYU and GULC other than to be an echo chamber that both programs are good, but NYU is going to be better for placing into NYC biglaw.

I would seriously look at Northwestern's Tax LLM as well. If you really want to move back to Chicago and you already have a foot in the biglaw door, your shot at getting biglaw again is significantly higher. LLM hiring is different than JD biglaw hiring, which is almost entirely based on 1L grades and school prestige.

[Aeon]

Are you planning on doing the degree part-time? NYU has an executive tax LL.M. option that you can do remotely.

If you're planning on the full-time option, you should also weigh any potential scholarship offers. GULC tends to be more generous with scholarship money than NYU for the tax LL.M. (for example, Georgetown offers full rides, whereas NYU's highest award is half-tuition).

It is true that NYU is considered the strongest tax program. But Georgetown has a very good one as well, and it is well-represented and respected among members of the DC bar. If you want to remain in DC, the added benefit of Georgetown's LL.M. is that many area practitioners teach courses as adjunct faculty, which can be useful for networking.

On the other hand, although most NYU tax LL.M. graduates end up staying in New York, there is a considerable degree of self-section at play, and the program has a national reach. Many non-NY employers are eager to hire NYU graduates.

If you will have to leave your job (instead of taking a leave of absence, for example) to do the LL.M., then the risk of going up to NY for the year is that you might face difficulties in convincing DC employers that you want to return. NYU does have programs like the Day at the Tax Court, which are helpful if you want to go back to DC and work in the government, but if you're looking at firms, you might face some pushback about your choice of NYU over GULC.

[Mr.PoPo]

NYU Tax LL.M. here. I would caution against the online LL.M. options. I don't have any hard evidence but its been suggested that the online programs are generally less respected than the on-campus programs. If that is a route you want to take I would suggest researching into it further.

Regarding employment prospects, NYU and GULC co-host a Tax Interview Program (TIP), generally in February after Fall semester grades have been released. There tends to be a range of employers, from big to medium sized firms, including the Big 4 accounting firms like (there were about 78 offices interviewing this year). From what I gathered, most of the employers that show up tend to be from the coasts, but there was one law firms from Chicago that attended as well as the Big 4 offices. TIP also offers a Resume Collect where employers who can't or don't want to show up can still get a hold of your materials, but I'm not sure how many people find a job through the resume collect. Again without any hard evidence, from what I heard employers tended to be more interested in the NYU students, but if you perform well at either program you'll get interest from employers who participate.

The Chicago firms that participated in the 2016 on-site interviews were McDermott and the Big 4. Bryan Cave and Latham & Watkins participated in the resume collect. As far as normal OCI interviews, I wasn't interested in Chicago so I didn't pay close attention, but my intuition says neither school saw much participation in OCI from Chicago firms. Its also worth noting that the LL.M. OCI is different from JD OCI. So if you really want Chicago you'll probably have to take the job search into your own hands and ask the career services office for help locating and contacting Chicago firms who would be interested (NYU keeps a large database on alumni and where they work).

I personally chose NYU over GULC because it was the top program with the broadest reach and placement potential. Its worth noting that if you weren't biglaw material before the LL.M., the LL.M. won't magically make you biglaw eligible, though it could improve your chances if you were close the first time around or do really well your first semester. I've heard of a few people going in-house directly after the LL.M., but I think they all had at least a few years under their belts prior to starting the LL.M.

So, is the gap SO huge? I think you have better odds purely from a placement standpoint attending NYU. However, if you have ties in DC and know a few GULC LL.M.s and don't mind staying in DC for a little while longer, then the gap would be decreased. I'm not sure if this answers your question in enough detail, but if not let me know and I'll try to provide additional info where I can.

[TaxLLM2016]

Thanks for all the helpful comments. I will be leaving my current firm and attending the program full time. I was accepted to Northwestern as well but I do not think Northwestern is comparable to GULC or NYU in terms of the Tax LLM program even if I wish to end up back in Chicago in the long run.

This is definitely a tough decision, especially with the cost of living for NYU being so high even compare to DC on top of the moving expense. I am drawn to NYU for potentially a better employment outcome over GULC and definitely by the prestige, but GULC seems to be the more sensible choice.

[Tefinn]

NYU grad here. I say stay in DC unless your have your sights set on Biglaw. I took a job at a big 4 firm and haven't looked back since. The hours, people, and the overall environment is way better than at Biglaw. Get half decent grades at GULC and you'll almost certainly land a job in a big 4 firm.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

NYU grad here. I say stay in DC unless your have your sights set on Biglaw. I took a job at a big 4 firm and haven't looked back since. The hours, people, and the overall environment is way better than at Biglaw. Get half decent grades at GULC and you'll almost certainly land a job in a big 4 firm. Also, it should be relatively easy to switch to Chicago after a year or two in DC or NY. I know my group is actively looking to build up our Chicago presence.

Were you in biglaw before? Doing tax or something else?

How much better are the hours in big 4 v. biglaw?

Thanks.

[Tefinn]

NYU grad here. I say stay in DC unless your have your sights set on Biglaw. I took a job at a big 4 firm and haven't looked back since. The hours, people, and the overall environment is way better than at Biglaw. Get half decent grades at GULC and you'll almost certainly land a job in a big 4 firm. Also, it should be relatively easy to switch to Chicago after a year or two in DC or NY. I know my group is actively looking to build up our Chicago presence.

Were you in biglaw before? Doing tax or something else?

How much better are the hours in big 4 v. biglaw?

Thanks.

Nope, I joined my firm straight out of NYU. I leave work at 6PM when things are slow (~30-40%) and by 8PM most other times. Rarely do I have to work on the weekends (maybe once a month). I can tell you with certainty that big-law hours are far, far more demanding - at least in NYC.

That said, hours (and pay) can vary drastically, not only be firm, but also by practice group and even by individual partners. It is crucial to do your diligence on whom you will be working with/for.

[cczhang]

How did you end up with a big 4 job? Did you find it through TIP or OCI? I know big 4' national office is always a good choice. Bur do NTs have a preference between NYU and GULC?

I am under similar situation. I graduated from GW and am working in DC as in-house. I got into NYU and GULC. But I chose NYU in the end. I have strong ties in DC, and would like to work in DC after tax LLM. Hopefully, I made the right choice..

NYU grad here. I say stay in DC unless your have your sights set on Biglaw. I took a job at a big 4 firm and haven't looked back since. The hours, people, and the overall environment is way better than at Biglaw. Get half decent grades at GULC and you'll almost certainly land a job in a big 4 firm. Also, it should be relatively easy to switch to Chicago after a year or two in DC or NY. I know my group is actively looking to build up our Chicago presence.

Were you in biglaw before? Doing tax or something else?

How much better are the hours in big 4 v. biglaw?

Thanks.

Nope, I joined my firm straight out of NYU. I leave work at 6PM when things are slow (~30-40%) and by 8PM most other times. Rarely do I have to work on the weekends (maybe once a month). I can tell you with certainty that big-law hours are far, far more demanding - at least in NYC.

That said, hours (and pay) can vary drastically, not only be firm, but also by practice group and even by individual partners. It is crucial to do your diligence on whom you will be working with/for.

[Aeon]

I am under similar situation. I graduated from GW and am working in DC as in-house. I got into NYU and GULC. But I chose NYU in the end. I have strong ties in DC, and would like to work in DC after tax LLM. Hopefully, I made the right choice..

If your in-house work was related to tax, then you'll probably get a decent level of interest from employers. Even if you were in a different practice area, your ties to DC will be helpful.

However, you should be prepared to explain why you chose NYU over Georgetown. To that end, I would suggest avoiding explanations like "NYU has the best tax program," which can alienate some interviewers, especially those who graduated from GULC. They won't be trying to trip you up, but they will be actively gauging your commitment to DC and might also be genuinely interested in your reasons for going to NYU.

[Tefinn]

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[ognam1029]

NYU is definitely the better choice and can cleanse crap JD grades depending on your GPA. For Chicago firms, NYU sends around your resume in a resume collect and some big law firms from Chicago interviewed students from resume collect.