Lewis & Clark Law Forum

[arielsm23]

So, here are my stats,

155 LSAT- I took the test three times. I took a good and comprehensive class, although my score improved on practice tests(160-162 consistently) not so on the actual test day. I do not feel that retaking will lead to a better score.

3.3 GPA at UT Austin - 3.8 and 3.9 my junior and senior years. I had significant improvement from a very bad sophomore year.

I'm also Hispanic.

Waitlistsd at Boston College, SMU, Cardozo, American. (I feel uncomfortable sneaking into one of these schools and paying sticker), have yet to hear from Tulane although I feel I have an outside chance of getting in at sticker. Only other school I've gotten into is Texas A&M at 45% scholarship which I posted about earlier today and I very much appreciated the huge amount of feedback unanimously saying not to consider it. Too risky, too new, not good enough. Understood.

I have 18k per year scholarship at L&C, making tuition about 25k.

I'm interested in criminal law, as well as litigation, potentially litgiation at a big law firm although I realize that at L&C this is quite unlikely. I am most concerned with getting just a decent 70K job in general, I know I want to be a lawyer and that sort of salary range is fine with me for the foreseeable future.

So, I visited L&C and and I really loved the place. I loved Portland. I am perfectly fine with starting a career in Portland and Seattle. I've only heard good things from alum, every enjoys the quality of life. But honestly, the stats are not great and although the rankings are not important really, they L&C has slipped in the last five years or so and is now behind U of Oregon. The alumni network in Portland and to some extent, Seattle, seemed strong so I suppose I want to know for lets say if you have a solid rank is it safe to say there's a good chance you can get a decent 70k job? I realize big law is probably limited to like the top 10%. And since L&c dropped behind Oregon in rank, is this something to worry about? Is there a reason for this? I would just appreciate a general idea of the prospects at Lewis & Clark. I like the idea that there's not many schools in the NW and I just really did love the school itself.

[barkschool]

you could work for these guys when you get out

http://www.eugene-legal.com/contact-us

edit: to be serious, I can PROMISE you, you won't find a job for 70k, if at all.

The stats below look like you have a coin flip's chance of making max 50k or being unemployed.

https://law.lclark.edu/live/files/21608 ... of-2015pdf

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... jobs/2014/

[arielsm23]

you could work for these guys when you get out

http://www.eugene-legal.com/contact-us

edit: to be serious, I can PROMISE you, you won't find a job for 70k, if at all.

The stats below look like you have a coin flip's chance of making max 50k or being unemployed.

https://law.lclark.edu/live/files/21608 ... of-2015pdf

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... jobs/2014/

Haha. Yeah.. I know. But look I can read the stats. I'd really appreciate feedback from people who have some sort of familiarity with the school other than googling law school transparency.

[barkschool]

you could work for these guys when you get out

http://www.eugene-legal.com/contact-us

edit: to be serious, I can PROMISE you, you won't find a job for 70k, if at all.

The stats below look like you have a coin flip's chance of making max 50k or being unemployed.

https://law.lclark.edu/live/files/21608 ... of-2015pdf

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... jobs/2014/

Haha. Yeah.. I know. But look I can read the stats. I'd really appreciate feedback from people who have some sort of familiarity with the school other than googling law school transparency.

My bad, will return with positive anecdotes

edit again: the people at L&C are lying to you about how great the school is, how great their students do, and just about everything else

[rinkrat19]

Portland has a tiny, insular legal market. The three Oregon schools produce like 4x as many new attorneys as the state needs each year, plus a non-negligible number of locals returning home from better schools (yours truly included). There are about 30 "big law" (or what passes for it in Portland) jobs a year. The area DA's offices hire like a dozen more per year. Maybe. And plenty of those are not brand new grads, and the positions get hundreds of apps.

Oh, and a L+C degree will not get you to Seattle without strong ties like having grown up there (and likely not even then). Seattle and Portland are both incredibly, independently insular.

I spend all day with current L+C 3Ls. I'm on a 1-year fellowship and will commence job-stressing in a couple of months. It's rough out there.

[arielsm23]

you could work for these guys when you get out

http://www.eugene-legal.com/contact-us

edit: to be serious, I can PROMISE you, you won't find a job for 70k, if at all.

The stats below look like you have a coin flip's chance of making max 50k or being unemployed.

https://law.lclark.edu/live/files/21608 ... of-2015pdf

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... jobs/2014/

Haha. Yeah.. I know. But look I can read the stats. I'd really appreciate feedback from people who have some sort of familiarity with the school other than googling law school transparency.

My bad, will return with positive anecdotes

edit again: the people at L&C are lying to you about how great the school is, how great their students do, and just about everything else

No I appreciate you being honest. I'm not looking for positive anecdotes. I suppose what I'm wondering is, just that it seems a region with few law schools and a large alumni network in Portland/Seattle, I suppose I want to know if anyone has experience with being a solidly ranked student at L&C or knows the area's legalarket.

For example, (this may be a bad example) but take St. Mary's in San Antonio, they're the only law school in the city and although most would consider it a bad law school, it benefits from being the only law school in its market and many many San Antonio lawyers went to St. Mary's law and do fine. I know that's an odd example, I'm from central Texas so it's I suppose the closest example I could think of. I suppose I was wondering if the network was decent in its market. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to wonder about. I realize that like 40% don't have full time legal jobs after a year and that like another 20-30 probably have not very good jobs etc. I understand the general idea.

[arielsm23]

Portland has a tiny, insular legal market. The three Oregon schools produce like 4x as many new attorneys as the state needs each year, plus a non-negligible number of locals returning home from better schools (yours truly included). There are about 30 "big law" (or what passes for it in Portland) jobs a year. The area DA's offices hire like a dozen more per year. Maybe. And plenty of those are not brand new grads, and the positions get hundreds of apps.

Oh, and a L+C degree will not get you to Seattle without strong ties like having grown up there (and likely not even then). Seattle and Portland are both incredibly, independently insular.

I spend all day with current L+C 3Ls. I'm on a 1-year fellowship and will commence job-stressing in a couple of months. It's rough out there.

God that sounds horrible..I appreciate the reply. I've heard it's a small and insular market. Yeah, that sounds bad. Thank you.

[MT Cicero]

Haha. Yeah.. I know. But look I can read the stats. I'd really appreciate feedback from people who have some sort of familiarity with the school other than googling law school transparency.

Unfortunately, people "familiar" with the school will be able to provide their anecdotal story, and perhaps some other people they know. So, the stats can be more helpful sometimes.

However, I have some familiarity with the school and the region. In this case, your chances may be even worse than the stats. The reason is that most jobs out of L&C are in Portland and the surrounding area (no surprise there). Portland, Seattle, and the Pacific Northwest generally are very tough to break into without genuine ties. Maybe the toughest. So, setting up shop at L&C for a year and then trying to gun hard for employment in Oregon/Washington/Idaho/northern Nevada is damn tough. It will be tough if you're at the top of your class, let alone hanging out around median or below.

I went to L&C's ASW a couple years ago. It's a pretty school in a great location. But I'd be very concerned about employment prospects when you're trying to come in as a quasi-outsider. It's hard enough as a lifelong Oregonian who finishes in the top quarter or third to find employment capable of servicing the type of loans it'll appear you'll have.

But seriously consider what the folks in the Texas A&M thread were telling you about weighing debt vs. outcomes. Extreme debt is very real, and it could even make you dislike practicing law when perhaps you would've enjoyed it more otherwise.

I know sitting out another 1-2 years sounds like the worst thing in the universe sometimes. But truly consider it. Yes, you might get a low score on a retake again. But you might not. And unless you're over 30 already, don't worry about the age thing. I'm a bona fide old!

PM me if you want to know any more.

Edit: Scooped by rinkrat.

[arielsm23]

Haha. Yeah.. I know. But look I can read the stats. I'd really appreciate feedback from people who have some sort of familiarity with the school other than googling law school transparency.

Unfortunately, people "familiar" with the school will be able to provide their anecdotal story, and perhaps some other people they know. So, the stats can be more helpful sometimes.

However, I have some familiarity with the school and the region. In this case, your chances may be even worse than the stats. The reason is that most jobs out of L&C are in Portland and the surrounding area (no surprise there). Portland, Seattle, and the Pacific Northwest generally are very tough to break into without genuine ties. Maybe the toughest. So, setting up shop at L&C for a year and then trying to gun hard for employment in Oregon/Washington/Idaho/northern Nevada is damn tough. It will be tough if you're at the top of your class, let alone hanging out around median or below.

I went to L&C's ASW a couple years ago. It's a pretty school in a great location. But I'd be very concerned about employment prospects when you're trying to come in as a quasi-outsider. It's hard enough as a lifelong Oregonian who finishes in the top quarter or third to find employment capable of servicing the type of loans it'll appear you'll have.

But seriously consider what the folks in the Texas A&M thread were telling you about weighing debt vs. outcomes. Extreme debt is very real, and it could even make you dislike practicing law when perhaps you would've enjoyed it more otherwise.

I know sitting out another 1-2 years sounds like the worst thing in the universe sometimes. But truly consider it. Yes, you might get a low score on a retake again. But you might not. And unless you're over 30 already, don't worry about the age thing. I'm a bona fide old!

PM me if you want to know any more.

Edit: Scooped by rinkrat.

Wow I really appreciate this comment actually.

I just appreciate a little more nuance in a major life decision than what people usually reply w with which is to post stats I've already read and, "don't go anywhere but a T14 school unless you have a full ride" which I admit is probably smart advice to follow, I am unfortunately just not in that position.

I suppose I was unsure the state of the legal market in Portland, that Portland/Seattle really had that few jobs. I definitely don't want to be at the top of the class and be worrying about being unemployed, especially when that's not something you can depend on.

I suppose sitting out a year may be the best idea, or considering some other options. I certainly don't want to but L&C doesn't seem worth the money at all.

[archipm]

I'm a 0L but have been working in the Portland legal market for a few years and would echo what the others said. The alum network can seem great if you want to stay in town because there are tons of L&C alums in the Portland legal scene but the new jobs are not there. I currently work in a government agency and we have a steady stream of unpaid volunteers who are L&C grads not just from last year but also 2014, 2013, etc. still trying to network their way into jobs.

[lymenheimer]

I just appreciate a little more nuance in a major life decision than what people usually reply w with which is to post stats I've already read and, "don't go anywhere but a T14 school unless you have a full ride" which I admit is probably smart advice to follow, I am unfortunately just not in that position.

As has been said to a ridiculous number of posters in the past, and will continue to be said in the future, you're an idiot if you think this is the case.

[cron1834]

PDX: I know multiple people at each of the three in state schools who finished top 10% and didn't get a market paying SA. There just aren't enough jobs in PDX for Oregonians, let alone outsiders. I think the insularity is overplayed a little; it's the scarcity of real jobs that exacerbates it. Can speak from experience. If you want a small firm job paying $55k and can afford to pay your debts that way, then fine. But if your plan requires more than that, you're making a big mistake.

SEA: Lewis and Clark to Seattle isn't a thing. Maybe it's possible for people FROM Seattle, but for biglaw, at least, it's very rare. The 2015 data would suggest it's basically nonexistent.

[arielsm23]

I'm a 0L but have been working in the Portland legal market for a few years and would echo what the others said. The alum network can seem great if you want to stay in town because there are tons of L&C alums in the Portland legal scene but the new jobs are not there. I currently work in a government agency and we have a steady stream of unpaid volunteers who are L&C grads not just from last year but also 2014, 2013, etc. still trying to network their way into jobs.

Yikes, that is not a position I want to be in. Thanks.

[arielsm23]

PDX: I know multiple people at each of the three in state schools who finished top 10% and didn't get a market paying SA. There just aren't enough jobs in PDX for Oregonians, let alone outsiders. I think the insularity is overplayed a little; it's the scarcity of real jobs that exacerbates it. Can speak from experience. If you want a small firm job paying $55k and can afford to pay your debts that way, then fine. But if your plan requires more than that, you're making a big mistake.

SEA: Lewis and Clark to Seattle isn't a thing. Maybe it's possible for people FROM Seattle, but for biglaw, at least, it's very rare. The 2015 data would suggest it's basically nonexistent.

That's a shame. Yeah I've not heard anything but bad feedback regarding the Portland/NW legal community. There just seems to be no jobs. I don't think 55k would be enough to pay off 6 digit debt.

[cron1834]

Great place, great people, mild weather... unfortunately very few jobs, and the ratio of qualified apps to opportunities is just way too high

[pstatementhell]

I'm really glad I found this thread because I am seriously considering Lewis and Clark. Maybe I've misunderstood the stats but on Law School Transparency doesn't it say that 51% of L & C grads have long term attorney positions after 9 months? So if there's 160 in the class 80 are getting jobs? So it sounds like more than the top 10% are finding jobs...or am I misunderstanding the employment scores?

[lymenheimer]

I'm really glad I found this thread because I am seriously considering Lewis and Clark. Maybe I've misunderstood the stats but on Law School Transparency doesn't it say that 51% of L & C grads have long term attorney positions after 9 months? So if there's 160 in the class 80 are getting jobs? So it sounds like more than the top 10% are finding jobs...or am I misunderstanding the employment scores?

Youre not misunderstanding employment scores, youre misunderstanding the discussion. You have to look at what jobs those attorneys are in. The top 10% is for biglaw jobs from the school, if that.

Also, why does it matter? Any school that gives you either 10% or even 50% chance at even being employed, much less employed as a lawyer, is a bad law school to attend.

[BigZuck]

I'm really glad I found this thread because I am seriously considering Lewis and Clark. Maybe I've misunderstood the stats but on Law School Transparency doesn't it say that 51% of L & C grads have long term attorney positions after 9 months? So if there's 160 in the class 80 are getting jobs? So it sounds like more than the top 10% are finding jobs...or am I misunderstanding the employment scores?

You're misunderstanding the point Cron made about the top 10%

[pstatementhell]

At the risk of looking stupid so if you are in the top half of your class since the employment percentage is 51% it's pretty likely that you'll find a job as an attorney. Big Law jobs would only be possible for the top 10%...Are the non big law jobs low paying and not good opportunities? Previous posters make it sound like there are zero jobs when my TLS math makes it seem like if you are at in the top half of the class at L & C you will find some kind of full time attorney position and not be working at Starbucks. Is that right or did I miss something..

[TheRealSantaClaus]

.

[archipm]

Are the non big law jobs low paying and not good opportunities?

Correct.

tbh working at Starbucks with no law school debt is probably preferable to breaking down in front of your legal assistant and disclosing to her that the reason you live in the same apartment complex as she does is your $35k salary and mountain of student loans. (hint: that is a true story)

[cron1834]

I'm really glad I found this thread because I am seriously considering Lewis and Clark. Maybe I've misunderstood the stats but on Law School Transparency doesn't it say that 51% of L & C grads have long term attorney positions after 9 months? So if there's 160 in the class 80 are getting jobs? So it sounds like more than the top 10% are finding jobs...or am I misunderstanding the employment scores?

A significant chunk of L&C grads just don't become attorneys within 10 months of graduating. Of those that do, you can LITERALLY count on one hand the number of them that got 6-figure jobs last year. It's a great school in terms of environment and location, but the market for jobs is truly terrible relative to the number of grads at PNW schools.

[Rigo]

What kind of hispanic?
Gotta retake here. Glad you've been receptive to the Portland market advice too.

[Foghornleghorn]

S]
Waitlistsd at Boston College, SMU, Cardozo, American. (I feel uncomfortable sneaking into one of these schools and paying sticker), have yet to hear from Tulane although I feel I have an outside chance of getting in at sticker. Only other school I've gotten into is Texas A&M at 45% scholarship which I posted about earlier today and I very much appreciated the huge amount of feedback unanimously saying not to consider it. Too risky, too new, not good enough. Understood.

None of these are a good option at sticker. I know you're frustrated with your outcomes. But, going to any of these schools is only going to put off your career frustration for 3 years. It's likely that you'll be stuck in the 35-50k income bracket and saddled with 100K+ debt. You're banking on being the special snowflake at law school. And even then, most of your paycheck would sail to servicing debt.

Law school is not a bad idea. But, your current options are.

[HonestAdvice]

I planned to retire, and came back after looking at a friend's LinkedIn, and seeing this posting. You can put your fingers in your ears, and think times will change or you'll be an exception to the rule. Setting aside the data and looking at anecdotes, I moved a couple times in my youth and have "hi, how are you" types of relationships with a lot of people. Many of these people went to law school, some went to schools like the one you're considering. These people were not idiots. They knew the legal economy was rough, that they'd struggle out of the gate but were for the most part not individuals anybody would ever describe as dumb, weird or lazy. A lot of them also had strong professional collections, not amazing but definitely more substantial than most people at your average t-14.

The reason I was moved today is one of these people is a grade-A hustler. He wasn't the most well educated and didn't have the reading ability to be able to do very well on the LSAT, but he was sharp, the reasoning skills were there. He was also a "go getter," the kind of guy who could go out with nothing but his wits and charm, and get shit done. He was also very well connected to a certain demographic, and had more than a few people who would do him favors. He was aware of the data, but also aware of his skill set which the deans of one of these schools told him will help him stand apart and he fell in love with the school. He didn't do great in law school, but didn't do terribly. He had internship after internship his next 2 years. He only became more confident as law school went on.

I got a text from him about a year and a half ago - he had just failed the bar for a second time, and so did most of his law school friends. He was low on cash and loans were in deferment. He asked if I knew someone who could help him for a fee, but a modest fee. It just so happens I had a friend who was smart and personable but got unlucky. He failed once more, but then passed and was admitted. I imagine this was maybe the highest point of his life, which was the last time he called me. I congratulated him, and asked him about his next steps. He could now finally make use of his connections, and hustle. It's almost a year later, and I got an update on LinkedIn his educational info was updated. Having undiagnosed ADD, although I was on a work call, I had to click.

The law school section of his education, which once included all the organizations he was in, his classes, his journal - it's all deleted. His title doesn't say lawyer. All that's left is his college, an unexceptional but not horrible state school. According to the internet, these past 6 years of his life are a rumor. They never happened. He paid sticker.

Another thing to consider is Seattle and Portland are 2 of the most desirable places to live in America. Literally thousands of attorneys in big law, DA's offices and in-house businesses would move to these cities in a heartbeat. They're affordable, and offer a pretty incredible quality of life. Portland is a godsend for anyone into indie rock, athletics, hiking, art, etc. For months in Seattle you could literally fish a mile from your house, and catch the freshest salmon you've ever had while still being able to live a city life. The weather is relatively stable compared to most of the country as well. Lawyers tend to be more "world conscious" than the general population, and are probably likelier to move cross country. Your desire to stay in Portland/Seattle is nice, but you don't realize how in demand these cities are. If you were talking about Jackson, Mississippi or something it would still be rough, but you don't have to worry about as many people trying to relocate to your market getting jobs over you. To illustrate my point in a light way, picture if in Genesis following the forbidden fruit story, Adam and Eve asked for leniency by arguing, "Bu--but--but God, we're willing to stomach life in Paradise!"