Thoughts on Texas A&M Law Forum

[arielsm23]

I'd appreciate responses from people who truly have an idea about Texas A&M as a law school and not just the 111 ranking on US News. Meaning, I'd really appreciate responses mainly from people who are from Texas and understand the DFW legal market and A&M as an emerging law school and how it stacks up against SMU.

Some basics about my situation:
Texas A&M gave me a 45% scholarship. The tuition was recently reduced and frozen at 28k a year so my tuition will be about 15k a year and my rent will be about 600 a month. Relatively cheap for law school and very cheap cost of living in Fort Worth.

I'm set on going to law school this year, I've taken the lsat three times so cannot retake for a year. And only more people are applying to law school each year, and a&m in particular gets more selective each year. I would most likely not get as good a scholarship next year.

Reasons I'm considering A&M:
The school went up 38 ranks in one year, Texas A&M is well respected in Texas and I trust somewhat their ability to continue to invest in the school, class size was cut from about 230 to 130, the admission rate is about 19%, they hired 12 faculty last year, the dean told me they are hiring 6 more faculty each year for the next 3 years or so. In short I believe that they are doing the right things to make the law school competitive and I do believe that eventually they will become a real competitor to UT/SMU/Houston.

Reasons I'm concerned about A&M: I don't want to go to a school that is still looked at as Texas Weslayan. I would never have considered Texas Weslayan so I don't want to go to A&M if it is regarded as poorly as Weslayan was by the DFW bar and employers in general. I know A&M reputation will improve but am unsure if it will improve substantially enough in the next 3 years to make it a substantial leap from Weslayan etc.

I'm waitlisted at SMU, Boston College, some other schools. But even if I got in I know I will probably not get any scholarship money from them. So this seems the best deal I will get. Also I do realize and plan on being in the top 10-20% but of course, you never know what can happen. No law school is easy.

Another thing, I'm not exactly set on big law. I know A&M has very few big law attorneys. But I would rather the door not be absolutely shut on big law prospects just from going to A&M. I really care about just finding a solid job at all. I do not want to be a law school horror story and be unemployed entirely.

So, I'd very much appreciate any thoughts. Keeping debt as low as possible is very important to me and A&M seems to be moving in the right direction, I know it is the best deal I will get debt-wise. Thanks!

[cavalier1138]

I'm not at A&M, but a few things stick out to me:

1. What are you interested in doing with your JD? You never mention this, and it's pretty important.
2. For someone who doesn't want input from people who just know the USNWR rankings, you sure place a lot of emphasis on them. Jumping up 38 ranks in the tier that Texas A&M is in doesn't really mean a whole lot. At that level, the location of the school has more to do with your future career than any national ranking.
3. You're also placing way too much weight on improvement. It's good to see schools improving. Really, it is. But if A&M becomes competition for UT "eventually", that means nothing for your career prospects. On a semi-related note, class size was cut at a lot of schools because of declining application numbers. That's not an indicator of higher standards being put in place.
4. I cannot emphasize this one enough. You cannot "plan to be in the top 10-20%". You just can't. You have absolutely no idea how well you'll do in school relative to your peers. Banking your career on being in the top 10% of your class is suicide. Don't do it.

Short version: What do you want to do, and where do you want to do it?

[Dr. Nefario]

What is your GPA/LSAT? Where else did you apply and get accepted or apply in general?

Honestly, Texas A&M is so new and young that it is hard to fully evaluate it based on what we know. It's only been in existence going on three years and there is going to be no alumni base. Yes you may have the TAMU alum base if you went there as an undergrad, but no law school alumni base. In addition, their employment stats are devastating. 0% clerkship, 1% biglaw, 46% employed. Please reevaluate your decision. I'm from DFW and this is not a good option. PM me if you want more personal level advice and are not willing to go too personal on here. You can have other options eventually, just do the process right and people here will help you more than you can imagine. Texas A&M may one day reach Bay/TTU status as a law school, but right now, I'd go to either of those over SMU for sheer prospects.

[arielsm23]

2. I do not put that much emphasis on the rankings which is exactly why I asked how it does in DFW and compares to SMU. Increasing 38 ranks reflects improvement obviously and I imagine it will only continue to rise. I placed it as one factor of many.

3. Yes, thats exactly why I asked the question, how much will this improvement help me in 3 years. Exactly. I know it will improve and is improving and I want to know how that will reflect in job prospects within the next three year while I'm attending law school. I will say that the lower amount of students admitted was not due to less applications it was indeed due to higher admissions standards and thats irrefutable. (The school has been A&M for 3 years, you don't seem to realize this) A&m was one of the few schools in the country to actually have applications increase over the past 2-3 years and they now let in only about 19% of applicants (because many of the applicants are still applying with Weslayan numbers)

4. I didn't bank on it. I obviously qualified this by saying no law school is easy, you never know what can happen, and I realize that it is a difficult thing to do.

I mean all of these things I said in my post. These are exactly the questions I'm asking myself and do not know the answer to.. I want to know how A&M stands now, what its standing is in DFW. Stuff like that.

1. I realize big law is very unlikely at A&M short of a few top people, I do wonder if this will improve in my time there. I'm interested in criminal law and litigation. I realize this is all very speculative but this is inevitable when a school has only been around for 3 years.

[BasilHallward]

I'd appreciate responses from people who truly have an idea about Texas A&M as a law school and not just the 111 ranking on US News. Meaning, I'd really appreciate responses mainly from people who are from Texas and understand the DFW legal market and A&M as an emerging law school and how it stacks up against SMU.

Some basics about my situation:
Texas A&M gave me a 45% scholarship. The tuition was recently reduced and frozen at 28k a year so my tuition will be about 15k a year and my rent will be about 600 a month. Relatively cheap for law school and very cheap cost of living in Fort Worth.

I'm set on going to law school this year, I've taken the lsat three times so cannot retake for a year. And only more people are applying to law school each year, and a&m in particular gets more selective each year. I would most likely not get as good a scholarship next year.

Reasons I'm considering A&M:
The school went up 38 ranks in one year, Texas A&M is well respected in Texas and I trust somewhat their ability to continue to invest in the school, class size was cut from about 230 to 130, the admission rate is about 19%, they hired 12 faculty last year, the dean told me they are hiring 6 more faculty each year for the next 3 years or so. In short I believe that they are doing the right things to make the law school competitive and I do believe that eventually they will become a real competitor to UT/SMU/Houston.

Reasons I'm concerned about A&M: I don't want to go to a school that is still looked at as Texas Weslayan. I would never have considered Texas Weslayan so I don't want to go to A&M if it is regarded as poorly as Weslayan was by the DFW bar and employers in general. I know A&M reputation will improve but am unsure if it will improve substantially enough in the next 3 years to make it a substantial leap from Weslayan etc.

I'm waitlisted at SMU, Boston College, some other schools. But even if I got in I know I will probably not get any scholarship money from them. So this seems the best deal I will get. Also I do realize and plan on being in the top 10-20% but of course, you never know what can happen. No law school is easy.

Another thing, I'm not exactly set on big law. I know A&M has very few big law attorneys. But I would rather the door not be absolutely shut on big law prospects just from going to A&M. I really care about just finding a solid job at all. I do not want to be a law school horror story and be unemployed entirely.

So, I'd very much appreciate any thoughts. Keeping debt as low as possible is very important to me and A&M seems to be moving in the right direction, I know it is the best deal I will get debt-wise. Thanks!

Texas A&M Law is not well respected in Texas. The pecking order is UT>>>>>>>SMU/UH>>>Baylor>>>Texas Tech>>>>>>>St. Mary's/Texas A & M. An undergraduate alumni base won't get you far.

[Dr. Nefario]

Consider the school where it is now, not where it will be in 3 years. What matters most is OCI which is after your first year, and Texas A&M does not do even remotely well there. In comparison to SMU, SMU has a massive DFW alumni base and is highly regarded in Dallas by people loyal to the area. Texas A&M is in Ft. Worth and does not have the respect. Comparing SMU to A&M is like comparing the Dallas Stars to a 5 year old junior hockey team.

ETA: where are you from OP? Undergrad? GPA? LSAT? Where do you want to work? Ties to the legal profession? What do you want to do?

[arielsm23]

Consider the school where it is now, not where it will be in 3 years. What matters most is OCI which is after your first year, and Texas A&M does not do even remotely well there. In comparison to SMU, SMU has a massive DFW alumni base and is highly regarded in Dallas by people loyal to the area. Texas A&M is in Ft. Worth and does not have the respect. Comparing SMU to A&M is like comparing the Dallas Stars to a 5 year old junior hockey team.

I mean I realize that SMU is far ahead of A&M. I think a lot of you guys are ignoring the point that A&M is 15k a year for me and improving while SMU would be like 50k a year in tuition. That's a lot of debt I don't want to take on. (I'm also just on the waitlist)

[cavalier1138]

Consider the school where it is now, not where it will be in 3 years. What matters most is OCI which is after your first year, and Texas A&M does not do even remotely well there. In comparison to SMU, SMU has a massive DFW alumni base and is highly regarded in Dallas by people loyal to the area. Texas A&M is in Ft. Worth and does not have the respect. Comparing SMU to A&M is like comparing the Dallas Stars to a 5 year old junior hockey team.

I mean I realize that SMU is far ahead of A&M. I think a lot of you guys are ignoring the point that A&M is 15k a year for me and improving while SMU would be like 50k a year in tuition. That's a lot of debt I don't want to take on. (I'm also just on the waitlist)

I don't think anyone is advising going to SMU at sticker price. That's why you were asked for your GPA/LSAT. Unless your GPA is insurmountably bad, then retaking the LSAT would likely open up a whole new world of prospective schools and scholarships for you.

And 45k in debt might as well be 100k if you can't get a job to pay that debt off. A&M's numbers are bad. Less than a coin-flip bad. You don't want to waste three years of your life on a 46% chance at being employed at all.

[arielsm23]

I wonder about this St. Mary's + Tech being considered higher on the pecking order than A&M. Is this a unanimous thought, location wise A&M is in a better job market jumped both in ranking. Do you all consider Tech and St. Mary's to be superior because of the alumni network/? Another thing to pls keep in mind. Much of the job data is out of date for A&M as I imagine it changes each year since its so new.

[Dr. Nefario]

Consider the school where it is now, not where it will be in 3 years. What matters most is OCI which is after your first year, and Texas A&M does not do even remotely well there. In comparison to SMU, SMU has a massive DFW alumni base and is highly regarded in Dallas by people loyal to the area. Texas A&M is in Ft. Worth and does not have the respect. Comparing SMU to A&M is like comparing the Dallas Stars to a 5 year old junior hockey team.

I mean I realize that SMU is far ahead of A&M. I think a lot of you guys are ignoring the point that A&M is 15k a year for me and improving while SMU would be like 50k a year in tuition. That's a lot of debt I don't want to take on. (I'm also just on the waitlist)

15K is only for tuition. Base your idea of debt on their cost of attendance figures not the tuition costs. You have a 40% scholly so thats $12,600/year. Cost of Attendance for a resident is $56,188. That leaves you paying $43,588/year for 3 years. So $130,764 is your COA for three years. At repayment your debt is $154,938. You decide. Is less than a 50% chance at having a legal job worth that debt?

RE: Job data changes so much because its new is another reason not to go. And yes Tech is higher because of their Alumni foundation/bar passage rate/etc. At least the have established a niche.

[trmckenz]

FWIW I work in Dallas biglaw as a patent agent and am applying to law schools for this fall as well. My bosses have advised me to not go to A&M simply because 'it's not there yet.' If you want a shot at biglaw and have no prior work experience in a law firm, you should go to at least a T1 (top 50) school. Biglaw interviews are typically gained by having a sufficient combination of three things: prior work experience, law school name/rank, and grades/class rank. In Dallas biglaw, A&M will not give you the second one, whereas SMU will.

[arielsm23]

Consider the school where it is now, not where it will be in 3 years. What matters most is OCI which is after your first year, and Texas A&M does not do even remotely well there. In comparison to SMU, SMU has a massive DFW alumni base and is highly regarded in Dallas by people loyal to the area. Texas A&M is in Ft. Worth and does not have the respect. Comparing SMU to A&M is like comparing the Dallas Stars to a 5 year old junior hockey team.

I mean I realize that SMU is far ahead of A&M. I think a lot of you guys are ignoring the point that A&M is 15k a year for me and improving while SMU would be like 50k a year in tuition. That's a lot of debt I don't want to take on. (I'm also just on the waitlist)

15K is only for tuition. Base your idea of debt on their cost of attendance figures not the tuition costs. You have a 40% scholly so thats $12,600/year. Cost of Attendance for a resident is $56,188. That leaves you paying $43,588/year for 3 years. So $130,764 is your COA for three years. At repayment your debt is $154,938. You decide. Is less than a 50% chance at having a legal job worth that debt?

RE: Job data changes so much because its new is another reason not to go. And yes Tech is higher because of their Alumni foundation/bar passage rate/etc. At least the have established a niche.

I understand COA. It was just easier to quote tuition rates. The employment rate is not 46%, it's 60% for 2015. Why respond if you're going to use outdated numbers. Like obviously the employment rate isn't going to go down from 60. But you're right, the numbers are bad. I really feel like going to tech over a&m seems a mistake though, they seem to be on opposite trajectories.

[arielsm23]

FWIW I work in Dallas biglaw as a patent agent and am applying to law schools for this fall as well. My bosses have advised me to not go to A&M simply because 'it's not there yet.' If you want a shot at biglaw and have no prior work experience in a law firm, you should go to at least a T1 (top 50) school. Biglaw interviews are typically gained by having a sufficient combination of three things: prior work experience, law school name/rank, and grades/class rank. In Dallas biglaw, A&M will not give you the second one, whereas SMU will.

Hm, see this is what I was looking for.. Well, I'm a legal assistant at a law firm in Austin. I doubt it would help me much. Yeah, I don't want it to absolutely preclude me from even getting an interview or consideration. Thank you, I appreciate the response. Are you going to go to SMU?

[eagle2a]

Retake the LSAT till you can get a score that will get you into UT/$$$ at SMU. And LOL, A&M will never be on par with UT

[Dr. Nefario]

Consider the school where it is now, not where it will be in 3 years. What matters most is OCI which is after your first year, and Texas A&M does not do even remotely well there. In comparison to SMU, SMU has a massive DFW alumni base and is highly regarded in Dallas by people loyal to the area. Texas A&M is in Ft. Worth and does not have the respect. Comparing SMU to A&M is like comparing the Dallas Stars to a 5 year old junior hockey team.

I mean I realize that SMU is far ahead of A&M. I think a lot of you guys are ignoring the point that A&M is 15k a year for me and improving while SMU would be like 50k a year in tuition. That's a lot of debt I don't want to take on. (I'm also just on the waitlist)

15K is only for tuition. Base your idea of debt on their cost of attendance figures not the tuition costs. You have a 40% scholly so thats $12,600/year. Cost of Attendance for a resident is $56,188. That leaves you paying $43,588/year for 3 years. So $130,764 is your COA for three years. At repayment your debt is $154,938. You decide. Is less than a 50% chance at having a legal job worth that debt?

RE: Job data changes so much because its new is another reason not to go. And yes Tech is higher because of their Alumni foundation/bar passage rate/etc. At least the have established a niche.

I understand COA. It was just easier to quote tuition rates. The employment rate is not 46%, it's 60% for 2015. Why respond if you're going to use outdated numbers. Like obviously the employment rate isn't going to go down from 60. But you're right, the numbers are bad. I really feel like going to tech over a&m seems a mistake though, they seem to be on opposite trajectories.

I used numbers from LST cause it was originally gonna be just a quick response. It could go back down easily. That's not something you can predict at such a young school

ETA: criticize me using LST numbers if you want, but you used tuition to based price which is flatly wrong, but yes, les year was slightly higher

[lnh819]

Have you considered that Texas A&M is all the way in Fort Worth? All those nice fancy Dallas internships and networking opportunities are going to be an hour away and taken mostly by SMU students, with a healthy network of UT/Baylor/Tech. You need to figure out what part of Texas you want to work in (Houston, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio) and then come back here and get help researching what schools place there.

[cavalier1138]

OP, small piece of advice:

If all you're looking for is validation, then don't post under the guise of asking for input. You seem pretty sold on A&M being the right choice for you, and best of luck with that.

There is a reason (actually, there are many reasons) that no one in this thread is telling you that this is a sound decision. But if you don't come in prepared to receive advice, there's really no point in asking for people to respond here.

[arielsm23]

Consider the school where it is now, not where it will be in 3 years. What matters most is OCI which is after your first year, and Texas A&M does not do even remotely well there. In comparison to SMU, SMU has a massive DFW alumni base and is highly regarded in Dallas by people loyal to the area. Texas A&M is in Ft. Worth and does not have the respect. Comparing SMU to A&M is like comparing the Dallas Stars to a 5 year old junior hockey team.

I mean I realize that SMU is far ahead of A&M. I think a lot of you guys are ignoring the point that A&M is 15k a year for me and improving while SMU would be like 50k a year in tuition. That's a lot of debt I don't want to take on. (I'm also just on the waitlist)

I don't think anyone is advising going to SMU at sticker price. That's why you were asked for your GPA/LSAT. Unless your GPA is insurmountably bad, then retaking the LSAT would likely open up a whole new world of prospective schools and scholarships for you.

And 45k in debt might as well be 100k if you can't get a job to pay that debt off. A&M's numbers are bad. Less than a coin-flip bad. You don't want to waste three years of your life on a 46% chance at being employed at all.

UT undergrad. 3.3ish GPA. (1 bad year brought me down, my last two years are 3.8 and 3.9(so there was improvement. LSAT: 155. As I said in my original post, I can't retake, I got a 155, 3 different times. I took a class and do better on practice tests but the pressure messed me up I suppose. I'm also Hispanic, so there's that I guess. I have badish options, waitlisted at SMU, Boston College, Cardozo, and American. Admitted to A&M with the 45% scholarship, and Lewis & Clark with 18k a year. I know they seem like random schools but I don't mind where I live. I also haven't heard from Tulane. But again, all these waitlistsd schools, even if I got in would be full price at 50k-60k for tuition alone.

[arielsm23]

Have you considered that Texas A&M is all the way in Fort Worth? All those nice fancy Dallas internships and networking opportunities are going to be an hour away and taken mostly by SMU students, with a healthy network of UT/Baylor/Tech. You need to figure out what part of Texas you want to work in (Houston, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio) and then come back here and get help researching what schools place there.

I have. I do wonder about that as well. 40 minutes to an hour doesn't seem insurmountable compared to Baylor or techs locations. I didn't list that as I don't mind what part of Texas I work in. I'm perfectly fine with DFW.

[arielsm23]

OP, small piece of advice:

If all you're looking for is validation, then don't post under the guise of asking for input. You seem pretty sold on A&M being the right choice for you, and best of luck with that.

There is a reason (actually, there are many reasons) that no one in this thread is telling you that this is a sound decision. But if you don't come in prepared to receive advice, there's really no point in asking for people to respond here.

I am seeking input. Ive not made up my mind at all. A lot of you guys have just come in with incorrect numbers and just aren't really answering the questions I have.

[emkay625]

I wonder about this St. Mary's + Tech being considered higher on the pecking order than A&M. Is this a unanimous thought, location wise A&M is in a better job market jumped both in ranking. Do you all consider Tech and St. Mary's to be superior because of the alumni network/? Another thing to pls keep in mind. Much of the job data is out of date for A&M as I imagine it changes each year since its so new.

Tech and St. Mary's benefit from being the only law school in their region of Texas. St. Mary's is the only law school in San Antonio, and Tech is the only law school in the whole western half of the state. That helps them when it comes to job placement. For A&M, you have to compete with SMU plus North Texas, plus Baylor just 90 minutes away. Not to mention, DFW is a desirable area for UT grads and T14 grads as well. So I actually don't think A&M is in a better market—it technically is, but it has to compete with students from much higher-ranked schools in a way Tech and St. Mary's don't.

Also, the jobs data they are referring to above IS from the class of 2015. It's not good—almost half the class unemployed or employed as non-lawyers. The employment numbers for the class of 2015 are actually worse than for the class of 2014, so don't blindly think that because the USNWR rank is improving, employment must be too.

[arielsm23]

Retake the LSAT till you can get a score that will get you into UT/$$$ at SMU. And LOL, A&M will never be on par with UT

I said already that I can't take the LSAT again. Yeah, probably not, it's not absolutely out of the question like 20 years down the line with a lot of money put into the school. Like UC Irvine for example. But yeah, obviously.

[emkay625]

OP here is my advice: contact 3-4 graduates from A&M on linkedin and ask if they're willing to speak candidly with you about their experience. Then make a decision.

[arielsm23]

I wonder about this St. Mary's + Tech being considered higher on the pecking order than A&M. Is this a unanimous thought, location wise A&M is in a better job market jumped both in ranking. Do you all consider Tech and St. Mary's to be superior because of the alumni network/? Another thing to pls keep in mind. Much of the job data is out of date for A&M as I imagine it changes each year since its so new.

Tech and St. Mary's benefit from being the only law school in their region of Texas. St. Mary's is the only law school in San Antonio, and Tech is the only law school in the whole western half of the state. That helps them when it comes to job placement. For A&M, you have to compete with SMU plus North Texas, plus Baylor just 90 minutes away. Not to mention, DFW is a desirable area for UT grads and T14 grads as well. So I actually don't think A&M is in a better market—it technically is, but it has to compete with students from much higher-ranked schools in a way Tech and St. Mary's don't.

Also, the jobs data they are referring to above IS from the class of 2015. It's not good—almost half the class unemployed or employed as non-lawyers. The employment numbers for the class of 2015 are actually worse than for the class of 2014, so don't blindly think that because the USNWR rank is improving, employment must be too.

Hm, good points. That's all true unfortunately... Thanks!

[eagle2a]

Retake the LSAT till you can get a score that will get you into UT/$$$ at SMU. And LOL, A&M will never be on par with UT

I said already that I can't take the LSAT again. Yeah, probably not, it's not absolutely out of the question like 20 years down the line with a lot of money put into the school. Like UC Irvine for example. But yeah, obviously.

Yes. It is.

If you want to work in Texas, go to UT/SMU/UH. You have a coin-flips chance of getting a job as an attorney coming out of this school. You shouldn't go there even if you get a full ride