Yale vs Columbia for human rights Forum

[Portjefferson]

Hi everyone,

Setting aside the question of cost for a moment, and looking purely at career outcome, which would be better for human rights?

I talked to some people at YLS who actually said that Columbia might have an edge, since it has special fellowship agreements with organizations like Human Rights Watch, and its location in NYC makes it easier to work a term-time human rights internship, and otherwise network for future jobs.

Anyone have any insight?

[Portjefferson]

Somebody? Anybody?

[SamuelDanforth]

Tell us what you think a lawyer who works "in human rights" does for a career, and then someone might be able to offer more perspective.

[Portjefferson]

I can imagine a number of possible outcomes, but I'm not sure how different they are in terms of what I'd have to do to get there. One option is a senior position at a large nonprofit like ACLU or HRW; another is working for a small civil rights-focused firm like Altschuler Berzon; another is working for someplace like the UN.

[dabigchina]

Unless CLS gave you a shitload of money I would go with Yale. It sound like you are gunning for the type of unicorn job that you more or less need Yale for.

[SamuelDanforth]

The easiest thing to do is just to go to their websites and see where their young attorneys received their degrees from. A five minute survey indicates that HRW has staff with JDs from many places, but with a noticeable plurality of Columbia JDs. Altshuler Berzon's website shows JDs from several schools, but a strong bias towards YHS, and several young Yale JDs in particular.

It often seems to be the case that the best way to get a job at places like HRW is to combine a top JD with a pre-law school job at the organization or a close connection with someone high up in the NGO. I suspect neither school rules out a career at those kinds of institutions, and it will be more about hussle, connections, and luck than either school's specific ability to funnel students one way or another.

Altshuler Berzon seems different though, and a YHS degree appear to make a real difference. I'd just go through and look at profiles, and then remind yourself that lots of people want those jobs, and it's not wise to make a law school decision based entirely on which school sends more people to a specific firm or NGO, since the odds of one making a career or getting a job at that institution remain low.

[worldtraveler]

Clearly Yale. This isn't even a question.

[rpupkin]

Tell us what you think a lawyer who works "in human rights" does for a career

Doesn't matter. The answer is "Yale" no matter what.

[SamuelDanforth]

Doesn't matter. The answer is "Yale" no matter what.

I was just prodding to see if the OP had a firmer idea of actual career plans than just trying to be Samantha Power. But fair enough!

[jbagelboy]

Columbia has an incredible human rights program and alumni base/connections--Amal Clooney teaches the human rights course with the author of multiple post-revolutionary constitutions--so it's an incredible school for human rights work and research. But at equal cost, for the average student and not connected faculty, Yale presents superior opportunities since you're competing with a smaller pool and you have more flexibility as a law student. I don't think you can make a wrong choice, and both schools offer terrific institutional support, but there's a distinction between which school has the strongest reputation in human rights--where Columbia has preeminence--and where the actual median student can access opportunities--where the edge goes to Yale. A lot of it will be about your own personal hustle at either school, though.

I am pretty familiar with the international law communities at both schools and I'd be happy to take Pms on the subject.

[Phil Brooks]

I'm gonna shill for Penn. Not only will it most likely cost you less, but it offers post-graduate fellowships with Human Rights First, Public International Law Policy Group, and other non-profits, as well as a 1L Summer job with the UN in Geneva. There is a small pool of students interested in this type of stuff, unlike at Columbia, so you have a good chance of getting these opportunities.

Moreover, Penn was best in the country and second best in the world in the Jessup International Law Moot Court competition this year. It defeated Columbia in a head-to-head elimination round.

Lastly, Penn's new international affairs institute, the Perry World House, is opening next month. People who "get in on the ground floor" will be most strongly supported as the school has a vested interest to get this institute off the ground with a strong first group of alumni.

[jbagelboy]

I'm gonna shill for Penn. Not only will it most likely cost you less, but it offers post-graduate fellowships with Human Rights First, Public International Law Policy Group, and other non-profits, as well as a 1L Summer job with the UN in Geneva. There is a small pool of students interested in this type of stuff, unlike at Columbia, so you have a good chance of getting these opportunities.

Moreover, Penn was best in the country and second best in the world in the Jessup International Law Moot Court competition this year. It defeated Columbia in a head-to-head elimination round.

Lastly, Penn's new international affairs institute, the Perry World House, is opening next month. People who "get in on the ground floor" will be most strongly supported as the school has a vested interest to get this institute off the ground with a strong first group of alumni.

Funny you should mention Jessup. CLS is the American winner nearly every single year since it was founded by Columbia professor and scholar Philip Jessup in the 1960s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_ ... ompetition

[Phil Brooks]

I'm gonna shill for Penn. Not only will it most likely cost you less, but it offers post-graduate fellowships with Human Rights First, Public International Law Policy Group, and other non-profits, as well as a 1L Summer job with the UN in Geneva. There is a small pool of students interested in this type of stuff, unlike at Columbia, so you have a good chance of getting these opportunities.

Moreover, Penn was best in the country and second best in the world in the Jessup International Law Moot Court competition this year. It defeated Columbia in a head-to-head elimination round.

Lastly, Penn's new international affairs institute, the Perry World House, is opening next month. People who "get in on the ground floor" will be most strongly supported as the school has a vested interest to get this institute off the ground with a strong first group of alumni.

Funny you should mention Jessup. CLS is the American winner nearly every single year since it was founded by Columbia professor and scholar Philip Jessup in the 1960s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_ ... ompetition

Not this year. Or last year. And someone who was a member of the CLS team the last time CLS did as well as Penn did this year, now teaches at Penn (https://www.law.upenn.edu/cf/faculty/pradhana/).

[cavalier1138]

I'm gonna shill for Penn. Not only will it most likely cost you less, but it offers post-graduate fellowships with Human Rights First, Public International Law Policy Group, and other non-profits, as well as a 1L Summer job with the UN in Geneva. There is a small pool of students interested in this type of stuff, unlike at Columbia, so you have a good chance of getting these opportunities.

Moreover, Penn was best in the country and second best in the world in the Jessup International Law Moot Court competition this year. It defeated Columbia in a head-to-head elimination round.

Lastly, Penn's new international affairs institute, the Perry World House, is opening next month. People who "get in on the ground floor" will be most strongly supported as the school has a vested interest to get this institute off the ground with a strong first group of alumni.

Pretty much every T14 offers a summer job with the UN in Geneva and has at least a competitive Jessup team. But only some schools are placing students in international human rights organizations right out of school.

I think the OP has two really good options, so I'd just advise looking at the jobs that graduates are getting. From that, it sounds like Yale gives them more opportunity.

[lawlorbust]

I'm gonna shill for Penn. Not only will it most likely cost you less, but it offers post-graduate fellowships with Human Rights First, Public International Law Policy Group, and other non-profits, as well as a 1L Summer job with the UN in Geneva. There is a small pool of students interested in this type of stuff, unlike at Columbia, so you have a good chance of getting these opportunities.

Moreover, Penn was best in the country and second best in the world in the Jessup International Law Moot Court competition this year. It defeated Columbia in a head-to-head elimination round.

Lastly, Penn's new international affairs institute, the Perry World House, is opening next month. People who "get in on the ground floor" will be most strongly supported as the school has a vested interest to get this institute off the ground with a strong first group of alumni.

Funny you should mention Jessup. CLS is the American winner nearly every single year since it was founded by Columbia professor and scholar Philip Jessup in the 1960s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_ ... ompetition

Not this year. Or last year. And someone who was a member of the CLS team the last time CLS did as well as Penn did this year, now teaches at Penn (https://www.law.upenn.edu/cf/faculty/pradhana/).

Telling someone to pick a school based on the strength of its Jessup team is some pretty next-level trolling. I thought I'd seen it all.

[somethingElse]

Especially when OP didn't even list Penn State's philly campus as one of his/her options

[rpupkin]

I'm gonna shill for Penn. Not only will it most likely cost you less, but it offers post-graduate fellowships with Human Rights First, Public International Law Policy Group, and other non-profits, as well as a 1L Summer job with the UN in Geneva. There is a small pool of students interested in this type of stuff, unlike at Columbia, so you have a good chance of getting these opportunities.

Moreover, Penn was best in the country and second best in the world in the Jessup International Law Moot Court competition this year. It defeated Columbia in a head-to-head elimination round.

Lastly, Penn's new international affairs institute, the Perry World House, is opening next month. People who "get in on the ground floor" will be most strongly supported as the school has a vested interest to get this institute off the ground with a strong first group of alumni.

[Portjefferson]

OP here - thanks everyone.

I was wondering what people think about the term-time internship question - does it make much of a difference in Columbias favor that you can work at one of these NYC-based organizations as a 2L/3L?

[jbagelboy]

OP here - thanks everyone.

I was wondering what people think about the term-time internship question - does it make much of a difference in Columbias favor that you can work at one of these NYC-based organizations as a 2L/3L?

I think it's in Columbia's favor, but it doesn't outweigh the opportunities to invest in human rights projects as early as you can at YLS. Unlike Columbia/Harvard/Penn ect, where people focus on academics as a 1L, at YLS you can begin exploring your specific practice and academic interests in earnest almost as soon as you get to campus. While 1Ls are definitely involved at Columbia, you aren't really in a position of significant networking capacity until 2L. Yale also can deliver a marginally superior chance at employment with certain employers than other schools.

I'm certainly not saying don't go to CLS, but at equal cost your life will be a little easier and some opportunities a little more accessible at YLS. It's not absolutes or open/closed doors (useless metaphor), but a more nuanced sliding scale in something like human rights work.