Last minute help Forum

[CousinBo]

I need help deciding between ND and WM. I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to the question, but last minute nerves have me doubting my decision. ND has objectively outperformed WM in employment for the last three years.

COA:
1. ND: 98k
2. WM: 94k

Payment:
Loans, loans, more loans.

Other Schools:
1. UVA waitlist
2. UMich waitlist

LSAT/GPA:
Took it three times, underperformed first two and hit my median PT score on third (mid 160s) I think I become eligible to take it again in December 2016 but not positive. Graduated from small UG with a 3.9GPA, I already took one gap year and saved up some money.

Location:
Prefer VA because its closer to home, but work wise would like to work in any major city, so between Chicago or DC is a toss up. Also would like to have the ability to come back to the mid-atlantic to work.

Job:
Not sure what kinda of law I want to do. I'm reading books about law careers and reading this forums. I understand biglaw is pretty miserable and the desirable gov. jobs are highly sought after. Ultimately would like to see Biglaw 3 years -> in-house/gov -> profit??

Edit: PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE

[mogwli]

If you are really adamant about not retaking the LSAT (especially with a 3.9 GPA that's real nice), I'd probably choose ND.

You'd probably not get DC from ND, but ND would put you in a pretty good spot to get into Chicago if you do well there. No idea about future lateral moves to VA/ mid atlantic, would depend entirely on post-graduation career.

If your long-term goal is to end up in VA, I'd hesitantly saw W&M, but honestly ~100k+ in debt (when you factor in the interest that will accumulate) seems way to much. That will have a significant effect on your career plans, and W&M -> DC biglaw is a decent amount harder than ND --> Chicago biglaw will be.

Do not be afraid of taking another year off though, and don't think of it as a "gap" year. Think of it as building life experience to make sure you really do want to go to law school + be a lawyer. Employers will appreciate 2 years of work experience as well. Average age at most law schools is typically ~24, so 2 years out will be totally normal. With a stronger LSAT (high 160s), you'd easily get into T14 schools that could place you into DC much easier + likely have better scholarship offers than what you've been given.

Edit: ESPECIALLY take another year off if you are still just unsure about law as a career. As much as the "why law school" question you'll answer a million times is total bullshit, being honest with yourself is important. If this is the career you want your life to be, why not wait a year and put yourself in a better job and financial position for the next 10+ years.

[CousinBo]

I am not unsure about career in law as much as I'm unsure what kind of practice I would want to be involved in. However, I do understand the recommendation of taking more time off and retaking. I called the LSAC today and they said I would be eligible to sit for September 2016 LSAT. My biggest hesitations are in order of;

1. Because of financial circumstances it took me longer than average to graduate from UG. I'm already 27, its getting harder and harder to justify putting off my career.
2. There is an upward trend in LSAT scores and increase in takers, if I don't score an 168 or above I might have similar offers.
3. Underperforming on the test again and wasting a year.

Furthermore, I'm currently working in a industry totally unrelated to law in which I feel like I'm wasting my time in. If I were to take a year off, I would want to try doing some paralegal work but because I don't have any previous experience I'm not sure if I could find employment in a type of environment I would hope to work in after graduating from law school.

[cavalier1138]

I am not unsure about career in law as much as I'm unsure what kind of practice I would want to be involved in. However, I do understand the recommendation of taking more time off and retaking. I called the LSAC today and they said I would be eligible to sit for September 2016 LSAT. My biggest hesitations are in order of;

1. Because of financial circumstances it took me longer than average to graduate from UG. I'm already 27, its getting harder and harder to justify putting off my career.
2. There is an upward trend in LSAT scores and increase in takers, if I don't score an 168 or above I might have similar offers.
3. Underperforming on the test again and wasting a year.

Furthermore, I'm currently working in a industry totally unrelated to law in which I feel like I'm wasting my time in. If I were to take a year off, I would want to try doing some paralegal work but because I don't have any previous experience I'm not sure if I could find employment in a type of environment I would hope to work in after graduating from law school.

Just to help assuage your fears a bit (I hope):

1. I'm 30. I'll be 31 when I start in the fall. You'll be fine.
2. True. But there's no telling what will happen with those numbers next year. LSAC might make changes to the test that bring scores back into line with prior years, etc.
3. So don't underperform. Find out what you need to do in the next 5 months to kill the test, and do it. If you get up in the 170s, you'll be here a year from now asking whether you should take a full ride at Northwestern or a bit of money at Harvard.

And finally, don't discount your work experience. I got my MFA and worked as an actor (as well as in a variety of not-at-all-law-related day jobs) for my decade out of school. My experience from this cycle is that being older and weirder can only help boost your application.

[cron1834]

Retake. Don't go to these schools with that GPA. 29 years old is totally fine for being a law student.

[crumb cake]

Plenty of people start in their 30s. It happens every year at all of the T14. You're a few points away from scholarship at a T14. Think big picture here.

Less than 15% of ND's class makes it to Chicago, and less than that end up in Chicago biglaw. There is no data on DC.

With a retake, NU or U Chicago seem like your best choices. DC is not impossible from those schools. And while Chicago is far from a guarantee, you'll have a better shot at it than from ND.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

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[CousinBo]

I understand the overwhelming consensus will be towards a retake. But its hard to describe personal circumstances which are pushing me starting school this year rather than retaking again.

Is ND really that bad of a choice at this point? The school's numbers have been improving every year, and it does have a considerable alumni network.

[mogwli]

I understand the overwhelming consensus will be towards a retake. But its hard to describe personal circumstances which are pushing me starting school this year rather than retaking again.

Is ND really that bad of a choice at this point? The school's numbers have been improving every year, and it does have a considerable alumni network.

ND is not a bad choice of law school. It is a great law school with improving placement every year,buut it's not worth 100k+ in debt.

I attend a top 20 school and I successfully got a biglaw offer for post graduation. Great! I'm also facing 130k in debt though.

Debt that high controls your life in ways you may not understand right now. Every budget I plan for factors spending the majority of my paycheck each month on my loans. With 6.8%+ interest, it will be years before my loans are gone, even with biglaw money. I am not effectively saving for retirement, I'm not saving for a home I'd like to buy, etc. Contrast that with people I know with the same biglaw opportunity, but with half my loans (or less). They are able to do SO MUCH more, so much sooner. They have a flexibility with their careers that I wish I had. I'm locked into this biglaw train hell or high water until my loans are paid off now.

And this is all assuming you even GET biglaw, which (as much as they are improving) less than half of ND kids do.

Retaking may not even be necessary. Maybe just sitting out and reapplying can get you more. The earlier you apply in a cycle the better your chances + scholarships. If you sent in your applications later,

Edit: IBR programs exist, but no one really knows how the massive tax bill you end up getting will effect things in 20 years.

[elimanning]

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[CousinBo]

Thank you for all of your suggestions. Knowing that there are more older applicants does make it a little easier for me personally.

I've made a deposit today to ND to buy some more time to think about what the next year would look like if I chose one path over the other. So far I'm still leaning to attending this year and here's why. First, I'd be only willing to take a year off if I were able to secure some type of paralegal work in a law firm to gain experience and to see whether this is something I'd like to do (Biglaw). However, I'm not sure how available biglaw paralegal (or any meaningful paralegal) jobs are. Also because my current living arrangements are undesirable, I'm yearning to start school again or to start a career. Second, after looking at the numbers and assuming I'd score a 167-169 I see that I would have a better shot at T14 for sure, however I doubt I could manage enough in scholarships to bring my total debt to 100k. This means that I'd have better chance of scoring biglaw but also means that I'd be handcuffed to biglaw for a longer time period.

Overall, as of now I'm having a hard time justifying taking another year off since I liked my visit to SB and think its a pretty good school at my current price. This is just my current mindset as of now, I do appreciate everyone's opinion and suggestions so far. And although it might not sound like I'm actually taking the advice, I went ahead and did a practice section last night from one of my unused PTs.

Edit: Please do not quote

[cron1834]

Most people underestimate COAs. How do you plan on paying off 6 figures of debt without biglaw? Relatedly, why do you think you'll get it from schools where the majority of students do not?

I just don't understand the reasoning here. I started school older than you, and I'm fine. I've lived in shitty situations before... if you can move out for law school, you can move out to retake; what's the difference?

[CousinBo]

Besides personal reasons for starting school earlier (which I admit aren't be all end all) I can't help but think that if I were to score 168ish and attend T14 for a higher price, I'm trading off higher debt for a better chance at biglaw. At a certain point the higher score vs. another year off becomes a point of diminishing returns. The last time I chose to sit out and retake the return was vast and far from the previous score, I'm not sure the return on sitting out this year will be as big. That is my dilemma.

[existentialcrisis]

Besides personal reasons for starting school earlier (which I admit aren't be all end all) I can't help but think that if I were to score 168ish and attend T14 for a higher price, I'm trading off higher debt for a better chance at biglaw. At a certain point the higher score vs. another year off becomes a point of diminishing returns. The last time I chose to sit out and retake the return was vast and far from the previous score, I'm not sure the return on sitting out this year will be as big. That is my dilemma.

If you get a 168 I bet you'd get $$$ from the lower T14.