Taking a chance Forum

[conztance]

Morning!

Here's the story. I'm waitlisted at quite a few T14s - U of M, G'Town (preferred + letter of rec just sent from AUSA Alum), Northwestern, and Duke.

Accepted to ND, Vandy, and W&M all with over 70% $$$

I am absolutely certain I want to do Public Interest law, and try to get a job with the Federal Government. Which means I'm not too worried about loans, because of the loan repayment program (I also currently work for the government).

The question is, deposit deadlines are coming up (in fact Vanderbilt's is tomorrow) and to prepare for if I don't get off a waitlist, where would you gamble to go?

Vandy seems the wise choice, given its ranking and placement options. However, I can probably push William & Mary to a full ride, given my stats, and it has a much greater name within the government...

I am English so the parents and peers are really no help at all. Any thoughts?

[cavalier1138]

If you want to work for the federal government in DC, then I'd re-take/reapply (just guessing from your info that you could do better on the LSAT and solve most of your problems).

If you want to work in the government in the South, then Vanderbilt is a fine option.

[stretchedtoothin]

Vandy's fine

[GFox345]

Congrats on some great outcomes, OP! Vandy at 70% off is a fantastic option in my opinion. I cannot say much about William and Mary's reputation within the government as opposed to Vandy's, but I can tell you something about their employment outcomes for the Class of 2015.

William and Mary Class of 2015: Size 178

Gov Jobs Total: 24 (13.5%) = 18 Fulltime Long Term (10.1%) + 6 Fulltime Short Term (3.4%)
PI Jobs Total: 9 (5.1%) = 7 Fulltime Long Term (4.0%) + 2 Fulltime Short Term (1.1%)
PI/Gov Total: 33 (18.6%) = 25 Fulltime Long Term (14.1%) + 8 Fulltime Short Term (4.5)%

Unemployed and Unknown Total: 30 (16.9%)
Underemployment Total: 18 (10.1%)
Unemployment and Underemployment Total: 48 (27%)

Vanderbilt Class of 2015: Size 185

Gov Jobs Total: 19 (10.3%) = 15 Fulltime Long Term (8.1%) + 4 Fulltime Short Term (2.2%)
PI Jobs Total: 13 (7.0%) = 7 Fulltime Long Term (3.8%) + 6 Fulltime Short Term (3.2%)
PI/Gov Total 32 (17.3%) = 22 Fulltime Long Term (11.9%) + 10 Fulltime Short Term (5.4%)

Unemployment and Unknown Total: 12 (6.5%)
Underemployment Total: 6 (3.2%)
Unemployment and Underemployment total: 18% (9.7%)

It appears that W&M and Vandy send roughly equal portions of their classes into PI/Gov Careers. The two schools have effectively the same class size as well. What I would caution you against is W&M’s Unemployment and Underemployment total, which is pushing 30%. This is alarmingly high when you consider the idea that more than 1 in 4 students find themselves either unemployed or underemployed even 9 months after graduation.

Vandy, on the other hand, boasts a Unemployment and Underemployment total that is more akin to the level of the T-14 (at 9.7%). This means that fewer than 1 in 10 Vanderbilt students are unemployed or underemployed 9 months after graduation.

With this in mind, I would say that Vanderbilt is the better option EVEN IF you manage to get W&M to a full-ride. Either way, you are looking at a significant amount of debt, and, quite frankly, Vanderbilt provides for a far greater likelihood that you will be able to service that debt while giving you a roughly equal chance (assuming that placement rates coincide with placement power) of getting a PI/Gov job. In my opinion, the increased likelihood of a positive outcome outweighs the increased cost.

Keep in mind that you do not necessarily have to choose one of these two schools. There is always the option of taking a year off, improving your LSAT score, and reapplying next year. There are some questions that you can answer that will make advising you easier. Namely: What is your LSAT score and how many times have you taken it? Where did you go to College and what was your GPA? Do you have any work experience/other (relatively) meaningful softs?

Good luck and Congrats again!

[conztance]

Congrats on some great outcomes, OP! Vandy at 70% off is a fantastic option in my opinion. I cannot say much about William and Mary's reputation within the government as opposed to Vandy's, but I can tell you something about their employment outcomes for the Class of 2015.

...

Keep in mind that you do not necessarily have to choose one of these two schools. There is always the option of taking a year off, improving your LSAT score, and reapplying next year. There are some questions that you can answer that will make advising you easier. Namely: What is your LSAT score and how many times have you taken it? Where did you go to College and what was your GPA? Do you have any work experience/other (relatively) meaningful softs?

Good luck and Congrats again!

Thank you! That was incredibly helpful.

I actually do not tell anyone my LSAT score, but I will say I have taken it twice, and the first one was a 161. The second time I improved by around 10 points. My GPA is at a 3.7 (major and minor at 3.9s/ just those darned science classes!). However, the college I went to was a relatively unknown state school in Michigan, graudated in three years. There was no reason why I should attend this college, it just worked out well at the time. My biggest soft is that due to circumstances I raised my siblings. Also, paralegal certified in two countries, significant work experience in the legal sector since I was 16. Very active in school, paid for my own education, etc and still early 20s.

I'm above or equal to the medians of all the waitlisted schools... but I did not apply until February (financial reasons). Looking at LSN, I expected to get at least Northwestern and G'Town, but such is life!

My contract with the govt is up in July so I really really really don't want to retake the LSAT or take another year out.

I'm ready to give up being an adult and head back to bed.

[wmwdma33]

With the assumption that your increase of "around 10 points" means you scored anywhere from a 169-172, you should definitely sit out this year and apply early next year. With those stats, you should not be worrying about getting in at the lower T-14 off the waitlist (especially a TTT like Georgetown). Wait this cycle out, and apply to the lower T-14 plus whatever T-6 you would think about attending. Notre Dame or Vandy for 70% off is not a bad deal necessarily, but you could be looking at a lower T-14 for a significant discount, which might present a better option. If anything, applying next year and considering T-14 schools in your decision will give you more decisions than just going to Vandy or ND now and worrying about what might have been.

[BigZuck]

Something isn't adding up, even a late application should have better results than this I would think. "Around 10 points" doesn't mean just a 7 point increase does it? Even with a 168 though I would think your results would be better.

[GFox345]

Congrats on some great outcomes, OP! Vandy at 70% off is a fantastic option in my opinion. I cannot say much about William and Mary's reputation within the government as opposed to Vandy's, but I can tell you something about their employment outcomes for the Class of 2015.

...

Keep in mind that you do not necessarily have to choose one of these two schools. There is always the option of taking a year off, improving your LSAT score, and reapplying next year. There are some questions that you can answer that will make advising you easier. Namely: What is your LSAT score and how many times have you taken it? Where did you go to College and what was your GPA? Do you have any work experience/other (relatively) meaningful softs?

Good luck and Congrats again!

Thank you! That was incredibly helpful.

I actually do not tell anyone my LSAT score, but I will say I have taken it twice, and the first one was a 161. The second time I improved by around 10 points. My GPA is at a 3.7 (major and minor at 3.9s/ just those darned science classes!). However, the college I went to was a relatively unknown state school in Michigan, graudated in three years. There was no reason why I should attend this college, it just worked out well at the time. My biggest soft is that due to circumstances I raised my siblings. Also, paralegal certified in two countries, significant work experience in the legal sector since I was 16. Very active in school, paid for my own education, etc and still early 20s.

I'm above or equal to the medians of all the waitlisted schools... but I did not apply until February (financial reasons). Looking at LSN, I expected to get at least Northwestern and G'Town, but such is life!

My contract with the govt is up in July so I really really really don't want to retake the LSAT or take another year out.

I'm ready to give up being an adult and head back to bed.

With a 3.7x/17x, you should have several prospects in the T-14 with significant money. I believe that going to W&M with your numbers is close to unconscionable. I know you're going to hate to hear this, but I think that the biggest weakness in your application was likely how late you applied in the cycle. Not applying until February means you applied close to the deadline for most schools, and this DEFINITELY can have a significant impact not only on whether or not you get in but also on how much merit aid you will get.

In my opinion, you are very likely to get a better outcome if you take a year off and reapply in September of next year. And if you're going to wait, then you might as well use that third take because you have nothing to lose. If you're in the low 170s, getting a few more points could put you into the running for Harvard since your GPA is also relatively strong.

You said yourself that you are still very young. Take a year off to do whatever you want, write a flawless PS and great Why X essays, retake the LSAT, apply on the day applications open, and profit.

[Nebby]

Vandy

[Nebby]

You have a 3.7/171? Those are full-ride numbers at Vandy, unless you applied late. I think you'd honestly be better off reapplying with your stats next cycle in late October.

[gazorpazorp]

I think that you should reapply early next cycle. And perhaps retake the LSAT in the meantime, because why not.

[conztance]

Something isn't adding up, even a late application should have better results than this I would think. "Around 10 points" doesn't mean just a 7 point increase does it? Even with a 168 though I would think your results would be better.

It's the 169-172 score band or whatever it is called. I know it doesn't really add up. I must have really screwed up something in my application. Or just applied way too late.

[conztance]

With a 3.7x/17x, you should have several prospects in the T-14 with significant money. I believe that going to W&M with your numbers is close to unconscionable. I know you're going to hate to hear this, but I think that the biggest weakness in your application was likely how late you applied in the cycle. Not applying until February means you applied close to the deadline for most schools, and this DEFINITELY can have a significant impact not only on whether or not you get in but also on how much merit aid you will get.

In my opinion, you are very likely to get a better outcome if you take a year off and reapply in September of next year. And if you're going to wait, then you might as well use that third take because you have nothing to lose. If you're in the low 170s, getting a few more points could put you into the running for Harvard since your GPA is also relatively strong.

You said yourself that you are still very young. Take a year off to do whatever you want, write a flawless PS and great Why X essays, retake the LSAT, apply on the day applications open, and profit.

Solid advice. Might just ride the waitlists for a bit, and if I get nowhere, focus on being the top in my class at Vanderbilt. Sitting around waiting for schools gets old pretty fast.

[mornincounselor]

With a 3.7x/17x, you should have several prospects in the T-14 with significant money. I believe that going to W&M with your numbers is close to unconscionable. I know you're going to hate to hear this, but I think that the biggest weakness in your application was likely how late you applied in the cycle. Not applying until February means you applied close to the deadline for most schools, and this DEFINITELY can have a significant impact not only on whether or not you get in but also on how much merit aid you will get.

In my opinion, you are very likely to get a better outcome if you take a year off and reapply in September of next year. And if you're going to wait, then you might as well use that third take because you have nothing to lose. If you're in the low 170s, getting a few more points could put you into the running for Harvard since your GPA is also relatively strong.

You said yourself that you are still very young. Take a year off to do whatever you want, write a flawless PS and great Why X essays, retake the LSAT, apply on the day applications open, and profit.

Solid advice. Might just ride the waitlists for a bit, and if I get nowhere, focus on being the top in my class at Vanderbilt. Sitting around waiting for schools gets old pretty fast.

[conztance]

Solid advice. Might just ride the waitlists for a bit, and if I get nowhere, focus on being the top in my class at Vanderbilt. Sitting around waiting for schools gets old pretty fast.

on trying to be at the top I should say. Never hurts to try to be the best at what you do.

[GFox345]

With a 3.7x/17x, you should have several prospects in the T-14 with significant money. I believe that going to W&M with your numbers is close to unconscionable. I know you're going to hate to hear this, but I think that the biggest weakness in your application was likely how late you applied in the cycle. Not applying until February means you applied close to the deadline for most schools, and this DEFINITELY can have a significant impact not only on whether or not you get in but also on how much merit aid you will get.

In my opinion, you are very likely to get a better outcome if you take a year off and reapply in September of next year. And if you're going to wait, then you might as well use that third take because you have nothing to lose. If you're in the low 170s, getting a few more points could put you into the running for Harvard since your GPA is also relatively strong.

You said yourself that you are still very young. Take a year off to do whatever you want, write a flawless PS and great Why X essays, retake the LSAT, apply on the day applications open, and profit.

Solid advice. Might just ride the waitlists for a bit, and if I get nowhere, focus on being the top in my class at Vanderbilt. Sitting around waiting for schools gets old pretty fast.

I wish you the best of luck in whatever it is you decide to do, but I really think that you are cheating yourself if you don't reapply next cycle. You stand to improve both your career prospects and your financial situation much more than going to Law School a year early ever could. And remember: finishing at the top of your class at Vandy is not likely to be easier than finishing in the top of your class at a t-14. The only thing that separates Vandy students from T-14 students is a geographical preference, an offer of good money, a late application (consider yourself), a few extra A minuses in some random undergrad classes, or a misread rule in a logic game.

The objective truth is that you are FAR better off waiting a year and applying early. All the same: good luck!