Cornell ($$) vs. WUSTL ($$$$) Forum

[mjs289]

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[Student of Law]

Why only Cornell and WUSTL? Where else did you apply? When did you apply?

[Hikikomorist]

Retake and reapply.

[mjs289]

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[miku015]

I need some help... 3.9, 168, non-URM

Goal:
IP boutique where I can have some responsibilities and do both prosecution and litigation. Location doesn't really matter, but would LOVE TO AVOID NYC. Eventually transferring to Asia. (Yes, I have engineering background with MS, but no work experience)

I already placed my seat deposit at WUSTL, and few days ago, I got off of reserve at Cornell. WUSTL is offering full tuition and 5k/yr living stipend, and Cornell just came with $105000 merit aid package. So approximate cost of attendance are around

WUSTL: ~25k
Cornell: ~150k

Both have obvious pros and cons...

Cornell
Pros: prestige, employment number
Cons: COA, location

WUSTL
Pros: COA, maybe benefit package...?
Cons: prestige, employment number


Since I want to transfer back to Asia, prestige matters. Cornell easily wins, but WUSTL isn't a bad school either (they are relatively well known for undergrad. program, so many people know the school).
The biggest problem is, I'll need to work in US at least for few years even if I get back to Asia, so will be looking for a job in US. I'm really hoping to avoid NYC. I know it's the biggest market and very receptive to people without ties, but I really don't like that city-of-the-city feel there. My guess is I'll enjoy my years at Cornell, but employment afterward is very likely to be in NYC. Outside NYC placement seems to be quite weak. Not sure if it's simply because of self-selection. On the other hand, WUSTL's employment number itself is low, so if I mess up, I won't make a good use of JD degree at all. Good thing is the investment itself is low, and since I have engineering background, the worst case I can probably look for engineering job.
I'm not even sure how my engineering background will work for job search after graduation in the first place. Many told me normal rules won't apply, but then how will it be for people like me?


I'm going to try to negotiate with Cornell, but I high doubt if they will move since WUSTL isn't a T14. Assuming things stand as it is, any thoughts? I DDL for Cornell is May 1st and I would like to hear as many people's opinion as possible...

Your stats should get you to $120k from Cornell so yes, make sure you negotiate. That said, I don't even understand where you would work if you don't want NYC...WUSTL could technically place you into midwest law, but you don't have ties to region. Cornell's main market is NYC, but you don't want it and it seems unrealistic to bet on either school placing you into DC/CA/Chicago without ties/amazing grades. If you didn't want NYC probably should have held onto a Vandy/UCLA/ND offer.

[mjs289]

Your stats should get you to $120k from Cornell so yes, make sure you negotiate. That said, I don't even understand where you would work if you don't want NYC...WUSTL could technically place you into midwest law, but you don't have ties to region. Cornell's main market is NYC, but you don't want it and it seems unrealistic to bet on either school placing you into DC/CA/Chicago without ties/amazing grades. If you didn't want NYC probably should have held onto a Vandy/UCLA/ND offer.

Yeah... I was really hoping for Northwestern or UVA or Duke, but had no luck getting into any. At least I'm not rejected, so will wait, but as of now these two are my best bets, so... I had Vandy, but just turned it down since their scholly offer wasn't enough.

[HYPSM]

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[mjs289]

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[mornincounselor]

Just so you know, WUSTL is completely unheard of in Asia.

Heck, it's practically unheard of in the U.S. unless you're in academic circles.

If you absolutely want to go back to Asia, that Cornell-Ivy League prestige will make the world of a difference.

In this case, Cornell is worth it, as your employment prospects will be affected dramatically.

Uh... yeah I'm aware of Cornell's prestige, and I'm now in Asia, so I know how these schools are in Asia (well at least in this country). Are you actually Asian? I want to know which part of Asia you are talking about. It could easily be different than my country, and I would like to factor that in for consideration. Lawyers here recognized both and all of them said you need work experience even with HYS degree. Given this I felt like working in US is the priority and with the work experience factored in, a school's prestige bears less value... I'm giving credit for 100k more max for the prestige value, but am I low-balling it? If Cornell gives a significantly better chance of getting employed at a place other than NYC, I will easily choose Cornell as it is....

There are threads here where current Cornell students could address this concern of yours.

I know that Cornell places graduates in other much smaller regions of NY (Rochester, Buffalo, maybe Albany) but the number of people who end up there is relatively small because (1) there are fewer jobs in locations outside of NYC, and (2) less graduates are interested in working in upstate New York. I believe many firms from outside NY come to solicit applications and numerous other firms may be receptive to a Cornell student who has some coherent story for why that region interests them.

[HYPSM]

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[mjs289]

You're making the false assumption that you can obtain prestigious work experience after graduating from WUSTL and that it will somehow compensate for WUSTL's shortcomings. This is unwise.

I just don't understand why WUSTL is even a consideration if you are going back to Asia. Go to Seoul, Hong Kong, or Tokyo, and ask about this school and you will see what I'm talking about. In countries like Korea, Japan, and China, what law school you went to makes a huge difference.

I wasn't assuming I'll obtain prestigious work experience. What would you consider prestigious? I'm actually hoping for prosecution more than litigation (mixture would be the best), but can a prosecution experience have prestige over other?
Plus, going back to Asia is NOT 100% thing. Goal is a goal. If I like working in US, I'll stay.
I'm little confused because I'm in Seoul and had chance to talk to lawyers in a law firm here. They said WUSTL is a good school, though not great of course... at least working lawyers identified it as a fine school and that's why I'm keeping it in my list. I would prefer St.Louis over NYC in case I stay in US, which is another reason. Anyway, I'm getting some discrepancy in what I'm hearing... I probably should ask them again as well.
Also thought the fact that I'm aiming for patent attorney and there aren't many patent bar eligible people in Korea could give me an edge. Does this not matter at all?

[mjs289]

There are threads here where current Cornell students could address this concern of yours.

I know that Cornell places graduates in other much smaller regions of NY (Rochester, Buffalo, maybe Albany) but the number of people who end up there is relatively small because (1) there are fewer jobs in locations outside of NYC, and (2) less graduates are interested in working in upstate New York. I believe many firms from outside NY come to solicit applications and numerous other firms may be receptive to a Cornell student who has some coherent story for why that region interests them.

Thanks:) I was asking in that thread as well, but they seem to generally agree Cornell-》NYC. At least the fact that there are other parts available is soothing to hear...

[HYPSM]

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[mjs289]

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[mjs289]

You will most likely not become a prosecutor if you are not a U.S. citizen. And you will obviously not become a prosecutor in Korea without taking the Korean Bar.

You are all over the place: Criminal law (prosecution), litigation, BigLaw, Patent Law... make up your mind first.

I honestly don't care for your anecdotal evidence that WUSTL is considered a good school in Korea. It is not. It is virtually unknown in Korea and even many parts in the U.S.

I meant IP prosecution. I don't remember ever mentioning about criminal law and have no idea where you are getting it from when I stated my goal is IP and that I have engineering background. I'm set on IP. Not interested in other law. And for a clarification, I'm US citizen. It's just I grew up in Asia, so background is like an international.
It seems like I need to ask more people to make sure those I talked to aren't outliers. I'm giving them credentials since they are working lawyers and will unless I get a sure sign of them being outlier group. I don't know about Japan or China, but recently Korea's hiring practice seems to be changing and that could be the reason I'm getting such different account between you and them as well...

[HYPSM]

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[mjs289]

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[HellfirePeninsula]

ITT: Korean people.

[xz01]

Hi, we pretty much have the same stats (3.99/168) and I'm also International. I got the exact same scholarship plus 90k from Michigan.

I tried to negotiate but they all refused (asked Georgetown, then Michigan and Cornell). The rise in 170+ scores make it unlikely that we'll get more from Cornell unless I'm doing something wrong. If I am, please advise us on how to do it.

I'm taking Cornell (80% sure) because I also want to get back to my continent (Europe in my case) and Cornell's employment stats are much better than WUSTL (this year, it was around 68% BL+FC for Cornell and around 30% for WUSTL). The Ivy league prestige might also help even though it's not the same caliber as say Harvard, Columbia, etc.

All in all, with your stats this cycle, Cornell is the best outcome you could have gotten (maybe a scholarship at Northwestern or Georgetown too but you applied fairly late).

[mjs289]

Hi, we pretty much have the same stats (3.99/168) and I'm also International. I got the exact same scholarship plus 90k from Michigan.

I tried to negotiate but they all refused (asked Georgetown, then Michigan and Cornell). The rise in 170+ scores make it unlikely that we'll get more from Cornell unless I'm doing something wrong. If I am, please advise us on how to do it.

I'm taking Cornell (80% sure) because I also want to get back to my continent (Europe in my case) and Cornell's employment stats are much better than WUSTL (this year, it was around 68% BL+FC for Cornell and around 30% for WUSTL). The Ivy league prestige might also help even though it's not the same caliber as say Harvard, Columbia, etc.

All in all, with your stats this cycle, Cornell is the best outcome you could have gotten (maybe a scholarship at Northwestern or Georgetown too but you applied fairly late).

Yeah I think Cornell is the best I can get this year. There are too many people with high scores. Anyway, the biggest problem for me is my preference to avoid NYC and the fact that I have citizenship,which means I'm not a biglaw or bust. If my status was a true international, Cornell would've been an easy winner... biglaw would be nice, but I would rather stick with mid law or something else if taking biglaw means in NYC. and with that much of aid from WUSTL, investment to begin with is low and there aren't many useful sources for info to weigh my options because of my half international + IP background. I'm torn:(
Michigan would've been nice only if they accepted me, but I got rejected for some reason... Well, hope you make a decision you won't regret and best of luck for your future!

[Lavitz]

Thanks:) I was asking in that thread as well, but they seem to generally agree Cornell-》NYC. At least the fact that there are other parts available is soothing to hear...

We did not say Cornell automatically = NYC. We said that it's possible to get other regions from median, that it depends on other factors, and that your engineering degree makes it easier for you. I know at least one person whose resume screams NYC and got CA offers pretty easily from median with his IP background. From either Cornell or WUSTL, your story is likely going to be "I have an engineering degree and I want to work here because there's IP work, I have no ties to any other region, and this region seems nice for X reasons." If you're interviewing in Midwest, mention that you've spent time there in undergrad (I think?). Spending 1L summer in a given region will give you another reason to list. So yes, it's possible to get biglaw in different regions with median at Cornell + engineering degree. But I have no idea about WUSTL; you'd have to ask WUSTL people if the same is true there. If it is, then WUSTL is a decent choice, especially if you would rather drop out than work in NYC.

However, I'm not sure why that is. What I said in the other thread was that if you're at Cornell, you should focus on NYC firms as a backup. Cornell gives you a bigger safety net in NYC, whereas I hear STL is more insular and it's still difficult to get a job there even if you go to WUSTL. I know you want to avoid NYC, but if your goal is to get back to Asia after a few years and you're below median and can't get another region, I'm not sure why you'd rather just give up and get an engineering job in the U.S. than deal with NYC for a few years. You can live in a less dense area like NJ or an outer borough and commute into Manhattan if you feel like you can't stand living in the city itself.

[thexfactor]

WUSTL grad here:

I would say take Cornell. WUSTL's reputation in the US isn't as bad as most people think. However, it is still a ways away from "peer schools" (or what WUSTL thinks are peer schools) UCLA/Vanderbilt/USC.

In terms of Asia, WUSTL is better known than most people think. Asians (at least the asian country I am originally from), love to look at US NEWS rankings. WUSTL's undergrad has a high US NEWS ranking, which helps its reputation slightly. With that said, I would still take Cornell. You get much better US and Asia job prospects for a little more debt.

Anecdotally, even though most people in my circle of friends did quite well job wise from WUSTL, many of them had to hustle hard to get those jobs (including myself).

PM me if you have any questions about WUSTL.

[mjs289]

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[mjs289]

WUSTL grad here:

I would say take Cornell. WUSTL's reputation in the US isn't as bad as most people think. However, it is still a ways away from "peer schools" (or what WUSTL thinks are peer schools) UCLA/Vanderbilt/USC.

In terms of Asia, WUSTL is better known than most people think. Asians (at least the asian country I am originally from), love to look at US NEWS rankings. WUSTL's undergrad has a high US NEWS ranking, which helps its reputation slightly. With that said, I would still take Cornell. You get much better US and Asia job prospects for a little more debt.

Anecdotally, even though most people in my circle of friends did quite well job wise from WUSTL, many of them had to hustle hard to get those jobs (including myself).

PM me if you have any questions about WUSTL.

Thank you for your input and appreciate the offer to talk more:). Actual WUSTL grad telling me to take Cornell is actually pushing me to Cornell.

I was somewhat hoping to stick to WUSTL because 1) extremely low COA, 2) it's not NY, 3) it's not a bad school reputation-wise, 4) more courses offerings that seem interesting, 5) more suiting clinical programs, 6) I like to hustle, and 7) they showed so much effort to get me.
Also the fact that WUSTL is a Midwest school that can get me placed in Chicago (I guess technically Cornell can as well, just not many grads go). That's one of the only two regions where I have relatives and loved the city when I was giving them a visit. Also, Cornell just doesn't offer much IP related stuff, which was kind of turning me off, but oh well. 3 yrs of taking uninteresting courses should be fine... I did it throughout my undergrad career anyway.

With that reputation, I was getting very confused because the poster above was saying with so much certainty that WUSTL is never heard of in Asia and many people I talked to or around me actually recognized it... I was thinking "wth is going on?" Could be because of US NEWS ranking as you said; people here also love to look at US NEWS ranking. What they were telling me was because of good undergrad ranking, there are many WUSTL grads in big companies that you can use as alumni network when looking for an in-house position. Also recently WUSTL has been staying in T20 consistently for law school US NEWS ranking, which is probably another thing. Good to have some confusion clarified.

[thexfactor]

WUSTL grad here:

I would say take Cornell. WUSTL's reputation in the US isn't as bad as most people think. However, it is still a ways away from "peer schools" (or what WUSTL thinks are peer schools) UCLA/Vanderbilt/USC.

In terms of Asia, WUSTL is better known than most people think. Asians (at least the asian country I am originally from), love to look at US NEWS rankings. WUSTL's undergrad has a high US NEWS ranking, which helps its reputation slightly. With that said, I would still take Cornell. You get much better US and Asia job prospects for a little more debt.

Anecdotally, even though most people in my circle of friends did quite well job wise from WUSTL, many of them had to hustle hard to get those jobs (including myself).

PM me if you have any questions about WUSTL.

Thank you for your input and appreciate the offer to talk more:). Actual WUSTL grad telling me to take Cornell is actually pushing me to Cornell.

I was somewhat hoping to stick to WUSTL because 1) extremely low COA, 2) it's not NY, 3) it's not a bad school reputation-wise, 4) more courses offerings that seem interesting, 5) more suiting clinical programs, 6) I like to hustle, and 7) they showed so much effort to get me.
Also the fact that WUSTL is a Midwest school that can get me placed in Chicago (I guess technically Cornell can as well, just not many grads go). That's one of the only two regions where I have relatives and loved the city when I was giving them a visit. Also, Cornell just doesn't offer much IP related stuff, which was kind of turning me off, but oh well. 3 yrs of taking uninteresting courses should be fine... I did it throughout my undergrad career anyway.

With that reputation, I was getting very confused because the poster above was saying with so much certainty that WUSTL is never heard of in Asia and many people I talked to or around me actually recognized it... I was thinking "wth is going on?" Could be because of US NEWS ranking as you said; people here also love to look at US NEWS ranking. What they were telling me was because of good undergrad ranking, there are many WUSTL grads in big companies that you can use as alumni network when looking for an in-house position. Also recently WUSTL has been staying in T20 consistently for law school US NEWS ranking, which is probably another thing. Good to have some confusion clarified.

I wouldn't go to WUSTL for big law chicago. To have a shot for big law chicago you would need top 25% I believe after your first year. I Why don't you wait it out this cycle and reapply next year?

You can apply to Michigan, UCLA, USC, Georgetown. Those are all well known in Asia and have better career prospects.