Vandy vs Notre Dame vs OSU Forum

[GreatBraffsby]

I'm having a tough time deciding between OSU, Vandy and Notre Dame, so I was hoping to get some input from this forum.

I took the LSAT 3 times in 2015 with a high score of 167. I waited to apply to most schools until the 167 from the December test, so I submitted somewhat late in the cycle (early Jan). My GPA was a 3.6x in the humanities. Not a URM.

I have solid work experience and graduated in 2013. I'm fairly eager to enroll into law school so I can graduate before I am 30.

Here are the total costs/explanations:
ND: 115k (I like Chicago, I think Notre Dame offers a uniquely thoughtful education, and I have an existing relationship with professors and students there. Not sure I could deal with Notre Dame fight song playing 24/7/365 as a sports fan, but the Midwest feels like home to me. I also visited and was turned off by the Catholic stuff, as I'm not big on organized religion.)

Vandy: 133k (Best career placement of any school on my list, although I for sure do not want to live long-term in a southern city like Atlanta, Dallas or Nashville. I have lived in the south and it did not mesh with me at all. Going to Vandy requires faith that they can place nationally, or at least in DC, Chicago or Ohio. I visited and liked it, but the price tag seems high and I feel like there's competition to be near the top of the class.)

OSU: 99k (In state tuition, close to parents and relatives, and I know for a fact I wouldn't mind living in Columbus/Cincinnati/Cleveland. I like their program on the whole, but I'm worried what happens to Moritz students outside the top third. Not sure it can take me to places that Vandy and Notre Dame could, and I don't want to make a choice based solely on what's the cheapest. I'm also concerned about spending a lot of money just to be fighting an uphill battle against UC grads for Cincinnati jobs in 2019, as that's my favorite of the Ohio markets.)

I was denied/wait-listed at all of the t-14. I'm confident in the quality of my application (solid softs, essays, recs, work experience, etc.) but think that the glut of 166-168s combined with post-Thanksgiving application submissions might have hurt me with my reach schools.

My parents are willing to help me out with the costs with effectively a no-interest loan. I'd pay them back once I get a job, but if my career goes belly up then they won't send me to collections. I feel guilty asking them for so much money as a 25 year old, especially since it's not for a top-5 school.

I have strong DC ties due to work experience (government and legislative affairs). I'm from Ohio, have family there, and wouldn't mind having a career there.

As for career interests, I'm considering a variety of areas in the law, including appellate work and antitrust law. I have relatives who do corporate work in NY and civil litigation in Ohio, and wouldn't mind looking into those areas (although biglaw in NYC is unlikely considering my options). I could also see myself working in a DA office, but that's something I feel like you need to try before you can really say it's want you want to do. I'm excited to explore the legal field in general, so I'm not picking a program based on a specific career outcome. As a 0L, I'd like to clerk, but who knows where I'll be in 3 years.

I know these aren't optimal choices, but I'm out of retakes and my current job/career situation doesn't afford much room for further growth. I'm curious to hear thoughts you might have about how I should pick between these schools. I guess I could wait on a lower t-14 waitlist, but I am hesitant about paying full price somewhere like Cornell or Northwestern.

[ponderingmeerkat]

I'm having a tough time deciding between OSU, Vandy and Notre Dame, so I was hoping to get some input from this forum.

I took the LSAT 3 times in 2015 with a high score of 167. I waited to apply to most schools until the 167 from the December test, so I submitted somewhat late in the cycle (early Jan). My GPA was a 3.6x in the humanities. Not a URM.

I have solid work experience and graduated in 2013. I'm fairly eager to enroll into law school so I can graduate before I am 30.

Here are the total costs/explanations:
ND: 115k (I like Chicago, I think Notre Dame offers a uniquely thoughtful education, and I have an existing relationship with professors and students there. Not sure I could deal with Notre Dame fight song playing 24/7/365 as a sports fan, but the Midwest feels like home to me. I also visited and was turned off by the Catholic stuff, as I'm not big on organized religion.)

Vandy: 133k (Best career placement of any school on my list, although I for sure do not want to live long-term in a southern city like Atlanta, Dallas or Nashville. I have lived in the south and it did not mesh with me at all. Going to Vandy requires faith that they can place nationally, or at least in DC, Chicago or Ohio. I visited and liked it, but the price tag seems high and I feel like there's competition to be near the top of the class.)

OSU: 99k (In state tuition, close to parents and relatives, and I know for a fact I wouldn't mind living in Columbus/Cincinnati/Cleveland. I like their program on the whole, but I'm worried what happens to Moritz students outside the top third. Not sure it can take me to places that Vandy and Notre Dame could, and I don't want to make a choice based solely on what's the cheapest. I'm also concerned about spending a lot of money just to be fighting an uphill battle against UC grads for Cincinnati jobs in 2019, as that's my favorite of the Ohio markets.)

I was denied/wait-listed at all of the t-14. I'm confident in the quality of my application (solid softs, essays, recs, work experience, etc.) but think that the glut of 166-168s combined with post-Thanksgiving application submissions might have hurt me with my reach schools.

My parents are willing to help me out with the costs with effectively a no-interest loan. I'd pay them back once I get a job, but if my career goes belly up then they won't send me to collections. I feel guilty asking them for so much money as a 25 year old, especially since it's not for a top-5 school.

I have strong DC ties due to work experience (government and legislative affairs). I'm from Ohio, have family there, and wouldn't mind having a career there.

As for career interests, I'm considering a variety of areas in the law, including appellate work and antitrust law. I have relatives who do corporate work in NY and civil litigation in Ohio, and wouldn't mind looking into those areas (although biglaw in NYC is unlikely considering my options). I could also see myself working in a DA office, but that's something I feel like you need to try before you can really say it's want you want to do. I'm excited to explore the legal field in general, so I'm not picking a program based on a specific career outcome. As a 0L, I'd like to clerk, but who knows where I'll be in 3 years.

I know these aren't optimal choices, but I'm out of retakes and my current job/career situation doesn't afford much room for further growth. I'm curious to hear thoughts you might have about how I should pick between these schools. I guess I could wait on a lower t-14 waitlist, but I am hesitant about paying full price somewhere like Cornell or Northwestern.

Dude, I can tell you already know the right answer here. So, I'm not going to belabor the wait/retake point. You know that's what you should do but, most likely, won't. So, in an effort to accomplish damage control instead, I'm going to recommend you go to Vandy. You're only financially cutting your wrists as opposed to cutting your wrists AND taking a bunch of pills which is what your other options entail. Maybe the financial paramedics will be able to save your life after your bad decision at Vandy. Their ability to save your financial life at OSU and ND becomes much smaller.

At least at Vandy you have an outside chance at being able to manage 6 figures of debt on a 10 year payback timeline. Your ability to do that from ND are slim and your ability to do that from OSU are nearly none.

Another option for you is to reapply with the same numbers on the first day schools start taking applications. I'm not saying it'll guarantee a different outcome but you might be surprised how timing has an impact.

[wmwdma33]

Your tuition levels at OSU seem a bit high. I have nearly identical numbers and I got a 16k a year diversity scholarship. With your stats, you shouldn't really have to pay more than 5, 10k a year to go to Ohio State. Your LSAT score probably puts you in the 90th to 100th percentile and your gpa is at median.

[splitterfromhell]

Dude, I can tell you already know the right answer here. So, I'm not going to belabor the wait/retake point. You know that's what you should do but, most likely, won't. So, in an effort to accomplish damage control instead, I'm going to recommend you go to Vandy. You're only financially cutting your wrists as opposed to cutting your wrists AND taking a bunch of pills which is what your other options entail. Maybe the financial paramedics will be able to save your life after your bad decision at Vandy. Their ability to save your financial life at OSU and ND becomes much smaller.

At least at Vandy you have an outside chance at being able to manage 6 figures of debt on a 10 year payback timeline. Your ability to do that from ND are slim and your ability to do that from OSU are nearly none.

Another option for you is to reapply with the same numbers on the first day schools start taking applications. I'm not saying it'll guarantee a different outcome but you might be surprised how timing has an impact.

Vanderbilt placed seven percent more of its most recent graduating class into large firm jobs and federal clerkships, compared to Notre Dame (47% vs. 40%). Seven percent. You are overestimating the differences between these two schools.

[sprezz]

you're looking at the parent loan thing from the wrong angle. ignore the normative i'm-too-old-for-this shit and look at it as an investment decision from their perspective, with your understanding of the risks and rewards (which is almost certainly more nuanced than theirs). it's not that a top 5 school is what would make the "loan" justifiable or that getting help from ages 26-29 is normatively better than help from 27-30. if they're going to assume the risk of footing the entire bill for a possible shit outcome, then you owe it to your parents to go out of your way now to mitigate their potential exposure to that risk and maximize the return on their investment. run it back next cycle and apply early to try and get the cost of any of these three down some. while you're doing that, you might as well retake. your school's employment numbers and your cost of attendance are probably the most controllable aspects of your risk from now until you graduate save maybe the bar exam.

edit: flew past the maxed out lsat info first read through, sorry. but i think applying earlier is still worth it if the only countervailing concerns are arbitrary age end points. plus another year lets you save more and rely less on parents. it's hard to envision a scenario where you're worse off punting to next cycle.

[GreatBraffsby]

Your tuition levels at OSU seem a bit high. I have nearly identical numbers and I got a 16k a year diversity scholarship. With your stats, you shouldn't really have to pay more than 5, 10k a year to go to Ohio State. Your LSAT score probably puts you in the 90th to 100th percentile and your gpa is at median.

I got the same amount (16k) for a leadership scholarship. Waiting to find out about Moritz, but can't count on that with deadlines looming. 20k in living expenses and 13 k of tuition over 3 years = 99k. With the Moritz, I would definitely attend Ohio State. Kind of a bummer that my state flagship is weird with scholarship money and I still don't have all possible info, but it's not something that I can control.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Dude, I can tell you already know the right answer here. So, I'm not going to belabor the wait/retake point. You know that's what you should do but, most likely, won't. So, in an effort to accomplish damage control instead, I'm going to recommend you go to Vandy. You're only financially cutting your wrists as opposed to cutting your wrists AND taking a bunch of pills which is what your other options entail. Maybe the financial paramedics will be able to save your life after your bad decision at Vandy. Their ability to save your financial life at OSU and ND becomes much smaller.

At least at Vandy you have an outside chance at being able to manage 6 figures of debt on a 10 year payback timeline. Your ability to do that from ND are slim and your ability to do that from OSU are nearly none.

Another option for you is to reapply with the same numbers on the first day schools start taking applications. I'm not saying it'll guarantee a different outcome but you might be surprised how timing has an impact.

Vanderbilt placed seven percent more of its most recent graduating class into large firm jobs and federal clerkships, compared to Notre Dame (47% vs. 40%). Seven percent. You are overestimating the differences between these two schools.

Vandy also had a lower unemployment rate, "seeking other degree" rate, school-funded employment rate, and a higher fed clerk rate. So, I'm not seeing a single metric where ND meets much less exceeds Vandy. Not one.

Look I'm not saying Vandy is amazeballs here, it's simply the least bad of OPs bad options given the debt-load required.

[GreatBraffsby]

you're looking at the parent loan thing from the wrong angle. ignore the normative i'm-too-old-for-this shit and look at it as an investment decision from their perspective, with your understanding of the risks and rewards (which is almost certainly more nuanced than theirs). it's not that a top 5 school is what would make the "loan" justifiable or that getting help from ages 26-29 is normatively better than help from 27-30. if they're going to assume the risk of footing the entire bill for a possible shit outcome, then you owe it to your parents to go out of your way now to mitigate their potential exposure to that risk and maximize the return on their investment. run it back next cycle and apply early to try and get the cost of any of these three down some. while you're doing that, you might as well retake. your school's employment numbers and your cost of attendance are probably the most controllable aspects of your risk from now until you graduate save maybe the bar exam.

I've thought about this, but I can't retake until Feb 2017, so that score wouldn't help me out until the cycle after next. Maybe that's the answer, but I spent about 9 months studying for the LSAT this time around and don't think I can improve enough to justify another go-round.

I'm not confident that next cycle will be any different, except maybe I'll get into the lower t-14s at full price, which isn't exactly tempting. I don't foresee a change in employment or any significant accomplishments that will appear on my application, which, coupled with a likely rise in applicants/test takers, makes me hesitant to forego this year.

[GreatBraffsby]

I'm having a tough time deciding between OSU, Vandy and Notre Dame, so I was hoping to get some input from this forum.

I took the LSAT 3 times in 2015 with a high score of 167. I waited to apply to most schools until the 167 from the December test, so I submitted somewhat late in the cycle (early Jan). My GPA was a 3.6x in the humanities. Not a URM.

I have solid work experience and graduated in 2013. I'm fairly eager to enroll into law school so I can graduate before I am 30.

Here are the total costs/explanations:
ND: 115k (I like Chicago, I think Notre Dame offers a uniquely thoughtful education, and I have an existing relationship with professors and students there. Not sure I could deal with Notre Dame fight song playing 24/7/365 as a sports fan, but the Midwest feels like home to me. I also visited and was turned off by the Catholic stuff, as I'm not big on organized religion.)

Vandy: 133k (Best career placement of any school on my list, although I for sure do not want to live long-term in a southern city like Atlanta, Dallas or Nashville. I have lived in the south and it did not mesh with me at all. Going to Vandy requires faith that they can place nationally, or at least in DC, Chicago or Ohio. I visited and liked it, but the price tag seems high and I feel like there's competition to be near the top of the class.)

OSU: 99k (In state tuition, close to parents and relatives, and I know for a fact I wouldn't mind living in Columbus/Cincinnati/Cleveland. I like their program on the whole, but I'm worried what happens to Moritz students outside the top third. Not sure it can take me to places that Vandy and Notre Dame could, and I don't want to make a choice based solely on what's the cheapest. I'm also concerned about spending a lot of money just to be fighting an uphill battle against UC grads for Cincinnati jobs in 2019, as that's my favorite of the Ohio markets.)

I was denied/wait-listed at all of the t-14. I'm confident in the quality of my application (solid softs, essays, recs, work experience, etc.) but think that the glut of 166-168s combined with post-Thanksgiving application submissions might have hurt me with my reach schools.

My parents are willing to help me out with the costs with effectively a no-interest loan. I'd pay them back once I get a job, but if my career goes belly up then they won't send me to collections. I feel guilty asking them for so much money as a 25 year old, especially since it's not for a top-5 school.

I have strong DC ties due to work experience (government and legislative affairs). I'm from Ohio, have family there, and wouldn't mind having a career there.

As for career interests, I'm considering a variety of areas in the law, including appellate work and antitrust law. I have relatives who do corporate work in NY and civil litigation in Ohio, and wouldn't mind looking into those areas (although biglaw in NYC is unlikely considering my options). I could also see myself working in a DA office, but that's something I feel like you need to try before you can really say it's want you want to do. I'm excited to explore the legal field in general, so I'm not picking a program based on a specific career outcome. As a 0L, I'd like to clerk, but who knows where I'll be in 3 years.

I know these aren't optimal choices, but I'm out of retakes and my current job/career situation doesn't afford much room for further growth. I'm curious to hear thoughts you might have about how I should pick between these schools. I guess I could wait on a lower t-14 waitlist, but I am hesitant about paying full price somewhere like Cornell or Northwestern.

Dude, I can tell you already know the right answer here. So, I'm not going to belabor the wait/retake point. You know that's what you should do but, most likely, won't. So, in an effort to accomplish damage control instead, I'm going to recommend you go to Vandy. You're only financially cutting your wrists as opposed to cutting your wrists AND taking a bunch of pills which is what your other options entail. Maybe the financial paramedics will be able to save your life after your bad decision at Vandy. Their ability to save your financial life at OSU and ND becomes much smaller.

At least at Vandy you have an outside chance at being able to manage 6 figures of debt on a 10 year payback timeline. Your ability to do that from ND are slim and your ability to do that from OSU are nearly none.

Another option for you is to reapply with the same numbers on the first day schools start taking applications. I'm not saying it'll guarantee a different outcome but you might be surprised how timing has an impact.

Thanks for the candid advice. I've thought about using ED to try to get into a top school and just accepting the debt as a trade off for an excellent school, but even then I doubt somewhere like UVA, Columbia, or NYU would bite. Maybe that would put me over the edge at Georgetown, Cornell or Berkeley (I was faculty review), but that's probably a worse outcome than what I have now. I know this forum HATES using ED, but being a fringe candidate for the t-14 with something of a parental safety net might make me an exception.

[GreatBraffsby]

Again, thanks everyone for the input. I know this isn't an ideal spot to be in, so I don't take your questioning/warnings personally or in any other negative way. Honestly, you're gentler with me than I would be with a stranger in my position. It's on me for not crushing the LSAT/undergrad, but I think the options I have are borderline acceptable. It's not like I'm doing full-pay at American or Golden Gate University or have no connections in the legal field (I understand that it's not logical to make a dumb choice just because it's less dumb than others, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at).

If I was to apply next cycle, should I apply ED to a mid/low t/14? Also, would/could I re-use recs and essays? Would my numbers be more competitive in September, or should I brace for a scenario where I face this same decision (or worse) next year?

[GreatBraffsby]

Vanderbilt placed seven percent more of its most recent graduating class into large firm jobs and federal clerkships, compared to Notre Dame (47% vs. 40%). Seven percent. You are overestimating the differences between these two schools.

Do you (or anyone else) think that the 7% is worth 18k? I kind of do, especially considering I'm not Catholic or super-conservative and probably couldn't wield ND connections with their full potency

[ponderingmeerkat]

Thanks for the candid advice. I've thought about using ED to try to get into a top school and just accepting the debt as a trade off for an excellent school, but even then I doubt somewhere like UVA, Columbia, or NYU would bite. Maybe that would put me over the edge at Georgetown, Cornell or Berkeley (I was faculty review), but that's probably a worse outcome than what I have now. I know this forum HATES using ED, but being a fringe candidate for the t-14 with something of a parental safety net might make me an exception.

I suppose the size of the safety net is the key. Your typical generous parental contribution isn't going to put much of a dent in $300K for full COA/tuition/fees/etc at UVA, for instance. But, there's always those 8 figure families out there who could "flick that booger" without much of a problem.

I get your reluctance re: the retake/reapply route. You feel emotionally pot committed to this law school idea. If that's the case, I think Vandy (absent OSU making it rain in the coming weeks). Given your anti-ND stance, it's hard to make a case for that school...it's "middled" on every metric that counts. Either go to the school that maximizes your employment options or the one that minimizes your debt options. Good luck!

[TheRealSantaClaus]

.

[arklaw13]

Vandy 3L here.

I usually don't recommend Vandy for much over 100k, but it looks like your best option here if you're dead-set on going to law school this fall.

We seem to do well in Ohio, although I don't know how we do comparatively to ND. ND obviously places more people there, but I imagine that's largely due to self-selection. My class seemed to pretty well in OH, but everyone went to Cleveland or Columbus, not Cincinnati. I can pm you some specific info if you'd like.

Vandy will probably do better in DC, but you'll need better grades than you can expect at either school. So I wouldn't really make your choice on that basis.

Bottom line is you shouldn't be paying 100k to go to OSU and you don't seem like you'll enjoy three years at ND.

[Tiddlywinks]

Your tuition levels at OSU seem a bit high. I have nearly identical numbers and I got a 16k a year diversity scholarship. With your stats, you shouldn't really have to pay more than 5, 10k a year to go to Ohio State. Your LSAT score probably puts you in the 90th to 100th percentile and your gpa is at median.

I got the same amount (16k) for a leadership scholarship. Waiting to find out about Moritz, but can't count on that with deadlines looming. 20k in living expenses and 13 k of tuition over 3 years = 99k. With the Moritz, I would definitely attend Ohio State. Kind of a bummer that my state flagship is weird with scholarship money and I still don't have all possible info, but it's not something that I can control.

Yeah OSU is being extremely weird about scholarships this year. I got a 16k/year as well with a 169 and higher GPA. It's cheaper for me go to Cornell then OSU.. I wouldn't attend unless I was paying 5k or less for tuition a year.

[wons]

I would wait to see if you get more $$ from OSU, and if not, I would take sticker at the lower T-14 (which is probably achievable given your stats and an early app) at sticker or near-sticker over your current options.

OSU for free is probably the best bet if you're happy working at BigOhioLaw. Worth holding out for.

[speed_the_loot]

.

[GreatBraffsby]

Update: Just received a full tuition offer from OSU. I'm definitely going with that. Thanks for all of your help.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Update: Just received a full tuition offer from OSU. I'm definitely going with that. Thanks for all of your help.

There you go! That's a solid outcome. Congrats man and good luck.