Michigan ($$) vs. Cornell ($) Forum

[PrayFor170]

Now deposit DDL is approaching, and I really appreciate your ideas!

Background about me: international, unable to obtain federal loans, need work authorization(H1B).
Career goal: definitely biglaw. Originally prefers Midwest, now flexible. Let's be honest, living and studying in Chicago for two years, I did build up some ties, but the Midwest market is really difficult to crack, and can be very unforgiving to international students who have been living in the US for a short time, so NY is a more realistic option. Since there's this visa issue, government/public interest/clerkship impossible for me and not really interested.
Options: Michigan (90k), Cornell (60k)

Here are some of my own analysis, but I really need some insiders to tell me the priorities.
Michigan:
Pros - 1. admitted into summer start program, so my 1l year consists of three semesters. I can choose electives to boost up my grades, participate in clinics, write on a journal etc. I can add something that will not appear on other 1l resumes. 2. Their huge scholarship is very tempting.
Cons - 1. their biglaw rate isn't satisfactory. 2. They don't have a direct market to feed in. 3. Living a 1l that consists of three semesters can be very risky if I screw everything up. I mean, the odd can be against me, it's hard to predict now. 4. Every year Michigan doesn't admit many internationals, and few of them end up in biglaw. I'm not sure if this results from self-selection.

Cornell:
Pros - 1. Biglaw rate is very high and feeds directly to the most international-friendly market. 2. A lot of international students are here.
Cons - 1. The legal writing is graded. 2. Ranking is lower than Michigan.

Thanks for any advice!!

(04/18) Someone asked me about the COA. According to the estimate offered on the website, deducted by my scholarship, it looks like this:
Cornell: 194,763USD
Michigan: 132,852USD

So basically it's sth. like 20k difference per year. Not sure how significant this amount of money seems in the long run.

[usernotfound]

Michigan is the clear choice here if you're trying to work in the midwest. Michigan places very well in Chicago relative to Cornell. Cornell is not worth 30k more than Michigan, and it's not worth more than Michigan at all.

[Aeon]

Michigan places well in NY and is stronger than Cornell at placing people in Chicago. Especially with the higher scholarship offer, I'd say Michigan is the way to go here.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

id pay a 30k premium (probably a bit more than that if you factor in interest) for better job numbers at cornell, especially when NY is your desired market. michigan is not indefensible though. maybe having less internationals at michigan may be a boost to you since there are less people with your background to compete with? not sure about that though.

i would think the practical benefit of a summer start is that you can drop out of LS earlier (and is less costly) if you completely hate/bomb LS, compared to other schools lol.

graded legal writing is truly FUCKING BULLSHIT. i have told people before, but assuming ALL ELSE EQUAL and you don't have a preference for a specific market, go with the school that has ungraded legal writing.

ranking shouldnt be a factor. it doesnt matter if michigan is top 5, top 10, or top 14. cornell leaves michigan with a gaping butthold when it comes to job placement.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

both of those two dudes above go to michigan, btw.

Cornell is not worth 30k more than Michigan, and it's not worth more than Michigan at all.

dean z sure knows how to pick em

[deepseapartners]

If you really want to work in the Midwest, you should go to Michigan. If you want greater certainty of getting a job, you should go to Cornell - 30k isn't enough to justify the gap between Michigan's employment statistics and Cornell's, unless you are dead-set on going back there.

Don't choose your law school because of a graded legal writing class though - you might as well just select based on how close students live to campus.

[HYPSM]

Negotiate your scholarship amount from Cornell with your offer from Michigan.

If you are an international student and want NYC BigLaw, Cornell is the clear way to go.

[usernotfound]

both of those two dudes above go to michigan, btw.

Cornell is not worth 30k more than Michigan, and it's not worth more than Michigan at all.

dean z sure knows how to pick em

Did you have a really shitty ex-girlfriend that went to Michigan? I haven't been on TLS a ton lately but every post of your I've seen is just unjustifiably hateful and specific towards a single school, which seemingly makes you more biased than I am.

[PrayFor170]

If you really want to work in the Midwest, you should go to Michigan. If you want greater certainty of getting a job, you should go to Cornell - 30k isn't enough to justify the gap between Michigan's employment statistics and Cornell's, unless you are dead-set on going back there.

Don't choose your law school because of a graded legal writing class though - you might as well just select based on how close students live to campus.

I don't want to work in the Midwest so badly. To be clear, my first step is to secure a biglaw (which market isn't really important cuz internationals don't have many options), and if I have biglaw offers from both NY and Chicago I'd probably take the Chicago one. If all the offers are from NY I wouldn't feel heartbroken.

According to 2016 US ranking, Michigan ranks 8, Cornell ranks 13. I'm not sure if that says something?

Also, although on LST the gap isn't that big, yet during the ASD all the ppl I've been talking to in Cornell end up biglaw, but few ppl I talk to in Michigan do biglaw. I guess I'd meet more like-minded ppl in Ithaca :v and according to the way you phrase it, the gap is actually pretty big??

[PrayFor170]

Negotiate your scholarship amount from Cornell with your offer from Michigan.

If you are an international student and want NYC BigLaw, Cornell is the clear way to go.

Right now just waiting for their reply. Hope I can get some luck.
To be honest, leaving everything aside, $$$ is really a valid concern.

[usernotfound]

If you really want to work in the Midwest, you should go to Michigan. If you want greater certainty of getting a job, you should go to Cornell - 30k isn't enough to justify the gap between Michigan's employment statistics and Cornell's, unless you are dead-set on going back there.

Don't choose your law school because of a graded legal writing class though - you might as well just select based on how close students live to campus.

I don't want to work in the Midwest so badly. To be clear, my first step is to secure a biglaw (which market isn't really important cuz internationals don't have many options), and if I have biglaw offers from both NY and Chicago I'd probably take the Chicago one. If all the offers are from NY I wouldn't feel heartbroken.

According to 2016 US ranking, Michigan ranks 8, Cornell ranks 13. I'm not sure if that says something?

Also, although on LST the gap isn't that big, yet during the ASD all the ppl I've been talking to in Cornell end up biglaw, but few ppl I talk to in Michigan do biglaw. I guess I'd meet more like-minded ppl in Ithaca :v and according to the way you phrase it, the gap is actually pretty big??

If you were dead set on NY biglaw, then Cornell is a good option. New York is also one of the biggest markets Michigan feeds into, but Michigan geographic outcomes are generally more diverse. I don't think anyone will say that Cornell would be better than Mich for Chicago or other midwestern cities. The BL+FC gap between M and C was 6% for the class of 2015, whatever that means. The one glaring weakness of the aba numbers is that they don't tell you why students chose to do what they're doing or if that was their goal or first choice of employment. It also doesn't speak to the caliber or desirability of the firm, just the # of attorneys. Rankings are relevant but it doesn't change the school. Have you visited either of the schools?

[PrayFor170]

If you really want to work in the Midwest, you should go to Michigan. If you want greater certainty of getting a job, you should go to Cornell - 30k isn't enough to justify the gap between Michigan's employment statistics and Cornell's, unless you are dead-set on going back there.

Don't choose your law school because of a graded legal writing class though - you might as well just select based on how close students live to campus.

I don't want to work in the Midwest so badly. To be clear, my first step is to secure a biglaw (which market isn't really important cuz internationals don't have many options), and if I have biglaw offers from both NY and Chicago I'd probably take the Chicago one. If all the offers are from NY I wouldn't feel heartbroken.

According to 2016 US ranking, Michigan ranks 8, Cornell ranks 13. I'm not sure if that says something?

Also, although on LST the gap isn't that big, yet during the ASD all the ppl I've been talking to in Cornell end up biglaw, but few ppl I talk to in Michigan do biglaw. I guess I'd meet more like-minded ppl in Ithaca :v and according to the way you phrase it, the gap is actually pretty big??

If you were dead set on NY biglaw, then Cornell is a good option. New York is also one of the biggest markets Michigan feeds into, but Michigan geographic outcomes are generally more diverse. I don't think anyone will say that Cornell would be better than Mich for Chicago or other midwestern cities. The BL+FC gap between M and C was 6% for the class of 2015, whatever that means. The one glaring weakness of the aba numbers is that they don't tell you why students chose to do what they're doing or if that was their goal or first choice of employment. It also doesn't speak to the caliber or desirability of the firm, just the # of attorneys. Rankings are relevant but it doesn't change the school. Have you visited either of the schools?

Yes, I've visited both and right now it's hard to see which one I like better. Ann Arbor is clearly less "village" than Ithaca and I have a great time there. Aside from that, both schools feel the same to me:non-urban location, cold and long winter, huge UG student body. Any suggestions on what things I could do to make my choice clearer?

[PrayFor170]

If you really want to work in the Midwest, you should go to Michigan. If you want greater certainty of getting a job, you should go to Cornell - 30k isn't enough to justify the gap between Michigan's employment statistics and Cornell's, unless you are dead-set on going back there.

Don't choose your law school because of a graded legal writing class though - you might as well just select based on how close students live to campus.

I don't want to work in the Midwest so badly. To be clear, my first step is to secure a biglaw (which market isn't really important cuz internationals don't have many options), and if I have biglaw offers from both NY and Chicago I'd probably take the Chicago one. If all the offers are from NY I wouldn't feel heartbroken.

According to 2016 US ranking, Michigan ranks 8, Cornell ranks 13. I'm not sure if that says something?

Also, although on LST the gap isn't that big, yet during the ASD all the ppl I've been talking to in Cornell end up biglaw, but few ppl I talk to in Michigan do biglaw. I guess I'd meet more like-minded ppl in Ithaca :v and according to the way you phrase it, the gap is actually pretty big??

If you were dead set on NY biglaw, then Cornell is a good option. New York is also one of the biggest markets Michigan feeds into, but Michigan geographic outcomes are generally more diverse. I don't think anyone will say that Cornell would be better than Mich for Chicago or other midwestern cities. The BL+FC gap between M and C was 6% for the class of 2015, whatever that means. The one glaring weakness of the aba numbers is that they don't tell you why students chose to do what they're doing or if that was their goal or first choice of employment. It also doesn't speak to the caliber or desirability of the firm, just the # of attorneys. Rankings are relevant but it doesn't change the school. Have you visited either of the schools?

Btw, I haven't left Ithaca yet and I live four hours drive from AA. So it's convenient for me to visit both schools again.

[usernotfound]

Tough call, given that you have two good schools to choose from, it's going to come down to finalized scholarship details and personal fit for your goals. If you do well at either you'll have a good chance to get biglaw. If your goal is the midwest and Michigan gave you 30k more money, then that seems enticing. Otherwise you might have to go with you gut because so much of the law school calculus comes down to a number of competing and hard-to-measure factors that won't necessarily yield a clear answer.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

If you really want to work in the Midwest, you should go to Michigan. If you want greater certainty of getting a job, you should go to Cornell - 30k isn't enough to justify the gap between Michigan's employment statistics and Cornell's, unless you are dead-set on going back there.

Don't choose your law school because of a graded legal writing class though - you might as well just select based on how close students live to campus.

I don't want to work in the Midwest so badly. To be clear, my first step is to secure a biglaw (which market isn't really important cuz internationals don't have many options), and if I have biglaw offers from both NY and Chicago I'd probably take the Chicago one. If all the offers are from NY I wouldn't feel heartbroken.

According to 2016 US ranking, Michigan ranks 8, Cornell ranks 13. I'm not sure if that says something?

Also, although on LST the gap isn't that big, yet during the ASD all the ppl I've been talking to in Cornell end up biglaw, but few ppl I talk to in Michigan do biglaw. I guess I'd meet more like-minded ppl in Ithaca :v and according to the way you phrase it, the gap is actually pretty big??

In terms of just biglaw + fed clerk, the most recent data shows:
Cornell: 67%
Mich: 61%

Past 3 years' data for PI/gov placement:
Mich: 15%
Cornell: 11%

It doesn't seem like the gap is big....

[nordi]

People who go to Michigan disproportionately want to end up in the midwest or doing non profit work. Surprise: they end up doing so. Practically the entire class at Cornell focuses on New York City big law. This, plus the fact that up until the class of 2016 Michigan had a harsher grade curve than Cornell, accounts for all of the difference in the big law placement. You will have just as easy a time looking at NY from Michigan as from Cornell, and you'll have an easier time with firms in Chicago, D.C., Detroit, Cleveland, Minneapolis, Houston, Dallas, San Fransisco, and Los Angeles coming from Michigan. And it's 30k less in tuition, plus it's slightly cheaper to live in Ann Arbor than in Ithaca, plus the tuition at Michigan is less to start with. Unless you have some bizarre, idiosyncratic, $45,000 urge to be in up state New York, this cannot be a close question.

[cron1834]

$30k is more like $40k over a ten year repayment plan. There's no way Cornell is worth $40k more than Michigan. Leonardo is a 1L twat who seems to have little experience of having actually lived in the world, and doesn't appear to show much sophistication in addressing admissions/jobs questions. Go to NY your 1L summer, mass mail every firm you're remotely interested in, and save $40k at Mich.

Edit - I guess I'd like to see actual COAs here to make sure either option is reasonable. Back of the napkin math isn't good enough, you need realistic estimates.

[nordi]

O, and just to add to the cost disparity. You save an expected $1,500 plus interest in tuition being a summer starter at Michigan. Good summer sublets can be found for $400 / month in Ann Arbor, no problem. Combine that with either the LC or another sublet for you last semester and you just saved another $3,000.

[gazorpazorp]

I think that you should definitely be able to get Cornell to raise their offer through negotiations.

[HYPSM]

$30k is more like $40k over a ten year repayment plan. There's no way Cornell is worth $40k more than Michigan. Leonardo is a 1L twat who seems to have little experience of having actually lived in the world, and doesn't appear to show much sophistication in addressing admissions/jobs questions. Go to NY your 1L summer, mass mail every firm you're remotely interested in, and save $40k at Mich.

Edit - I guess I'd like to see actual COAs here to make sure either option is reasonable. Back of the napkin math isn't good enough, you need realistic estimates.

Solid advice, but I'd be shocked if Cornell didn't increase their offer, given Michigan's offer.

OP, ranking is not everything; if you want BigLaw in NYC and get more money from Cornell, I don't see a reason to pay more to go to Michigan.

[PrayFor170]

$30k is more like $40k over a ten year repayment plan. There's no way Cornell is worth $40k more than Michigan. Leonardo is a 1L twat who seems to have little experience of having actually lived in the world, and doesn't appear to show much sophistication in addressing admissions/jobs questions. Go to NY your 1L summer, mass mail every firm you're remotely interested in, and save $40k at Mich.

Edit - I guess I'd like to see actual COAs here to make sure either option is reasonable. Back of the napkin math isn't good enough, you need realistic estimates.

According to the estimate offered on the website, deducted by my scholarship, it looks like this:
Cornell: 194,763USD
Michigan: 132,852USD

(these are totals of three years)

[PrayFor170]

I think that you should definitely be able to get Cornell to raise their offer through negotiations.

Already sent a very sincere email with Michigan's scholly info pdf attached. Wish me luck

[PrayFor170]

$30k is more like $40k over a ten year repayment plan. There's no way Cornell is worth $40k more than Michigan. Leonardo is a 1L twat who seems to have little experience of having actually lived in the world, and doesn't appear to show much sophistication in addressing admissions/jobs questions. Go to NY your 1L summer, mass mail every firm you're remotely interested in, and save $40k at Mich.

Edit - I guess I'd like to see actual COAs here to make sure either option is reasonable. Back of the napkin math isn't good enough, you need realistic estimates.

Solid advice, but I'd be shocked if Cornell didn't increase their offer, given Michigan's offer.

OP, ranking is not everything; if you want BigLaw in NYC and get more money from Cornell, I don't see a reason to pay more to go to Michigan.

Oh well, I've been talking to my fellow Chinese applicants. They have much more solid stats and softs than me, and none of them got scholly boost this year. I'm not sure if Cornell is one of the law schools well-known for generosity, but I'm confident I've written a persuasive email.

[jnwa]

id pay a 30k premium (probably a bit more than that if you factor in interest) for better job numbers at cornell, especially when NY is your desired market. michigan is not indefensible though. maybe having less internationals at michigan may be a boost to you since there are less people with your background to compete with? not sure about that though.

i would think the practical benefit of a summer start is that you can drop out of LS earlier (and is less costly) if you completely hate/bomb LS, compared to other schools lol.

graded legal writing is truly FUCKING BULLSHIT. i have told people before, but assuming ALL ELSE EQUAL and you don't have a preference for a specific market, go with the school that has ungraded legal writing.

ranking shouldnt be a factor. it doesnt matter if michigan is top 5, top 10, or top 14. cornell leaves michigan with a gaping butthold when it comes to job placement.

Youd pay more than 30k for Cornell over Michigan because of a probably insignificant 6% difference in BL+FC. Did someone from Michigan gape your butthold? damn.

[existentialcrisis]

id pay a 30k premium (probably a bit more than that if you factor in interest) for better job numbers at cornell, especially when NY is your desired market. michigan is not indefensible though. maybe having less internationals at michigan may be a boost to you since there are less people with your background to compete with? not sure about that though.

i would think the practical benefit of a summer start is that you can drop out of LS earlier (and is less costly) if you completely hate/bomb LS, compared to other schools lol.

graded legal writing is truly FUCKING BULLSHIT. i have told people before, but assuming ALL ELSE EQUAL and you don't have a preference for a specific market, go with the school that has ungraded legal writing.

ranking shouldnt be a factor. it doesnt matter if michigan is top 5, top 10, or top 14. cornell leaves michigan with a gaping butthold when it comes to job placement.

Youd pay more than 30k for Cornell over Michigan because of a probably insignificant 6% difference in BL+FC. Did someone from Michigan gape your butthold? damn.

I'm willing to chalk up a lot of the disparity in Michigan's employment stats (honestly probably all of it), to self selection, but I do see how the difference might concern people. Honestly it's traditionally been a lot more than 6%.