Harvard ($) vs Northwestern ($$$$) Forum

[cc1012]

-The schools you are considering
Harvard and NW

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
Harvard ($13.5k grant aid for first year, assuming grant aid stays the same) = ~$225k (graduate with ~$150k debt)
NW ($180k scholarship) = ~$70k (graduate debt free)

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
My parents will be contributing ~$25k/year and the rest will be loans

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
Born in the south. As far as where I want to work, I am pretty open. I would probably like to avoid NYC, but besides that, I don't really have a specific area where I would like to be.

-Your general career goals
This is where I am unsure. I have a BS in Electrical Engineering and am planning to pass the patent bar before school, yet I am not really sure that I would like to be a biglaw patent attorney. I hear all of the horror stories from Biglaw and I'm not sure that it is for me. I'm interested in politics and maybe running for an elected office someday. I could also see myself enjoying various public interest options or even taking a more business-oriented route. All in all, I'm really not sure what I want to do and I want to leave all options open so that I can explore them. Maybe even government, who knows?

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
169/3.75 NA URM

-How many times you have taken the LSAT
2

I know that Harvard opens many doors that other schools can't, but I also know that being debt free can open many doors too. Try not to be too harsh on me, but I am leaning Harvard because I don't want to be the guy who is always thinking "What if I'd gone to Harvard?" At the same time, I realize that $150k is $150k and having that much debt can limit my options significantly and can, in effect, force me into biglaw if I don't get a "unicorn outcome". This decision is really weighing on me. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[kingpin101]

If you're not sure about PI, you're probably not going into it. Go to NW.

[cc1012]

If you're not sure about PI, you're probably not going into it. Go to NW.

That is fair.

Can you or anyone else expand on your reasoning for choosing NW/Harvard?

It seems like a pretty even poll so far

[kingpin101]

If you're not sure about PI, you're probably not going into it. Go to NW.

That is fair.

Can you or anyone else expand on your reasoning for choosing NW/Harvard?

It seems like a pretty even poll so far

To be honest, either option is defensible. It's just that I'm very debt-averse, and you have to be aware that if you get a 2L SA your Harvard grant is gonna decrease.

Also, tons and tons of people say they're "interested" in PI or gov, but mysteriously end up on the biglaw gravy train. I wonder why...

[20171203]

.

[DELG]

You can't lose.

I mean, except for having to actually be a lawyer, but flip a coin and enjoy the next 3 years.

[cc1012]

Thanks for all of the replies and helpful advice, everyone!

I can certainly see the benefits of HLS especially since I am not set in my goals. NW seems like a more biglaw-oriented school.

That's not saying that I won't end up in biglaw though.

[krads153]

Knowing what I know now as a practicing attorney, I'd probably do NU...but when I was 0L I would have said hands down Harvard. I think that debt is okay for Harvard, although near my top limit.

[yost]

If you wanted to do patent law, I would say Northwestern hands down. As a URM EE, you'll have employers drooling over you regardless of school, so you'd just want to minimize debt. But since you're unsure, and $150K for Harvard is defensible, I would say do that. But as others have said, you really can't lose.

[Mullens]

Calculate your debt payments if you go to Harvard. $150,000 is real money and it's a lot of money when you have the ability to graduate debt free.

[cc1012]

Knowing how debt averse TLS is, a tie seems like a win for HLS.

I think that I will do fine from either school and I'm not ready to commit now. I am visiting NW next week.

The main question is: which opens more doors, graduating from a T14 debt free or graduating from HLS?

Results are even so far

[star fox]

What doors are you talking? Career or financial?

[cc1012]

What doors are you talking? Career or financial?

Moreso career choices.

The obvious financial choice would be NW, but I want to do something that I will enjoy and may not want to do biglaw.

I want the career choices to be able to say "Hey, that sounds fun. I want to do that."

Whether it be government, politics, business, etc.

I know that being debt free opens up many career opportunities, but the HLS network opens up many career opportunities too. Which opens more?

[kennethparcell]

What doors are you talking? Career or financial?

Moreso career choices.

The obvious financial choice would be NW, but I want to do something that I will enjoy and may not want to do biglaw.

I want the career choices to be able to say "Hey, that sounds fun. I want to do that."

Whether it be government, politics, business, etc.

I know that being debt free opens up many career opportunities, but the HLS network opens up many career opportunities too. Which opens more?

If you want freedom of career choice, wouldn't having less debt be the best way to do that? Having money not need to be as big a factor seems like the best way to make sure you're choosing a job for the right reasons

[cc1012]

What doors are you talking? Career or financial?

Moreso career choices.

The obvious financial choice would be NW, but I want to do something that I will enjoy and may not want to do biglaw.

I want the career choices to be able to say "Hey, that sounds fun. I want to do that."

Whether it be government, politics, business, etc.

I know that being debt free opens up many career opportunities, but the HLS network opens up many career opportunities too. Which opens more?

If you want freedom of career choice, wouldn't having less debt be the best way to do that? Having money not need to be as big a factor seems like the best way to make sure you're choosing a job for the right reasons

No debt certainly opens up many career opportunities, but so does HLS (even with significant debt). The Harvard alumni network and brand, in general, is so strong. In my case, which opens more: Graduating from T14 debt free or Graduating from HLS with significant, yet manageable debt.

[DELG]

I bet NU's alum base is more fiercely nepotistic.

[cc1012]

I bet NU's alum base is more fiercely nepotistic.

Probably. Though, I bet that is because NW's class size is roughly 40% of Harvard's. The small class size probably breeds a more familial feeling amongst the students.

I don't think there is much of an argument that the career options available to the NW students are the same as the career options available to HLS students.

[Cow]

I'm just a 1L, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Both schools have advantages: Harvard gives you more options, but Northwestern gives you no debt. Figure out exactly what you expect to get out of Harvard that you can't get out of Northwestern.

You know if you go to Northwestern the benefit is that you graduate debt free. Whatever money you make is yours to take home and enjoy. You can take a job you think you'll like without having to worry much about the pay. Nice car? Sure, that's an option. Large down payment on a house? Yeah, that's within reach. Peace of mind from not having debt? Absolutely. BigLaw is a realistic outcome. BigLaw-->Business is also a reasonable possibility. PI I'm not as sure about but not having debt would allow you to take a less-fancy PI job even if the pay isn't that great.

If you go to Harvard, you get prestige and you get options. But what exactly is it that you want to get out of Harvard job-wise that isn't available from Northwestern? I'm sure there are some positions you'd have access to from Harvard that you wouldn't from Northwestern...but figure out what, realistically, those might be. Many people, myself included, have this vague concept of unicorn jobs like SCOTUS clerkships and government policy jobs, but can't actually give a concrete list of what those jobs are. Be careful about taking on six figures of debt on a vague inclination that Harvard will get you otherwise unobtainable results. Many, many people from Harvard end up going to BigLaw, same as the Northwestern folks; for them, Harvard isn't getting them anything Northwestern couldn't.

Again, Harvard for that price isn't an objectively bad idea, but make sure you have a concrete reason for why you're taking on that kind of debt when you're likely to get similar results debt free.

[cc1012]

I'm just a 1L, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Both schools have advantages: Harvard gives you more options, but Northwestern gives you no debt. Figure out exactly what you expect to get out of Harvard that you can't get out of Northwestern.

You know if you go to Northwestern the benefit is that you graduate debt free. Whatever money you make is yours to take home and enjoy. You can take a job you think you'll like without having to worry much about the pay. Nice car? Sure, that's an option. Large down payment on a house? Yeah, that's within reach. Peace of mind from not having debt? Absolutely. BigLaw is a realistic outcome. BigLaw-->Business is also a reasonable possibility. PI I'm not as sure about but not having debt would allow you to take a less-fancy PI job even if the pay isn't that great.

If you go to Harvard, you get prestige and you get options. But what exactly is it that you want to get out of Harvard job-wise that isn't available from Northwestern? I'm sure there are some positions you'd have access to from Harvard that you wouldn't from Northwestern...but figure out what, realistically, those might be. Many people, myself included, have this vague concept of unicorn jobs like SCOTUS clerkships and government policy jobs, but can't actually give a concrete list of what those jobs are. Be careful about taking on six figures of debt on a vague inclination that Harvard will get you otherwise unobtainable results. Many, many people from Harvard end up going to BigLaw, same as the Northwestern folks; for them, Harvard isn't getting them anything Northwestern couldn't.

Again, Harvard for that price isn't an objectively bad idea, but make sure you have a concrete reason for why you're taking on that kind of debt when you're likely to get similar results debt free.

Very thorough analysis. My understanding of "unicorn jobs" is that they are, for the most part, pretty undefined and few and far between, but, usually available to HYS grads in greater numbers. I think that many people would struggle with giving a list of unicorn jobs because they are so rare and dependent on the individual. Government policy jobs seem very interesting to me, but I have never worked in the area so I cannot say for sure.

If I had accepted a path in biglaw as my goal, I would've signed with Northwestern already. However, I, admittedly, have little experience with many of the options that law school can provide so it is hard for me to define these options that I may be interested in.

Based on the replies and poll results, it seems that both options are defensible and on par with each other.

[onionz]

However, I, admittedly, have little experience with many of the options that law school can provide so it is hard for me to define these options that I may be interested in.

I'm interested in politics and maybe running for an elected office someday. I could also see myself enjoying various public interest options or even taking a more business-oriented route.

I mean you have great options but I mean, doesn't the above counsel against going to law school at all? I feel like if you've spent time in this forum you'll see how important it is to talk to real practicing lawyers about what it is like to be a lawyer, which is what you're trained for when you go to law school. I know there's good arguments to be realistic about goals for people who have tunnel vision or realize they can't get "unicorn jobs" but you don't even seem to know what your unicorn jobs would be, just that you want them. Overall, your concerns, to me at least, don't even sound NU/Harvard specific really, but go more to the core "why law?" question. You know what else gets you debt free? Not going to law school at all.

Pick a school, defer admissions for a year or two, and then revisit this. You can always reapply then if you feel like you made the wrong decision. But you don't sound like someone I'd recommend to go to law school right now from what little you've posted.

[Ohiobumpkin]

If you don't like idea of big law, then go with NW. With that kind of debt, you would have to either stay in big law or go PI and do LRAP. If you're not sure, then don't take on $200K+ of debt.

[Ohiobumpkin]

However, I, admittedly, have little experience with many of the options that law school can provide so it is hard for me to define these options that I may be interested in.

I'm interested in politics and maybe running for an elected office someday. I could also see myself enjoying various public interest options or even taking a more business-oriented route.

I mean you have great options but I mean, doesn't the above counsel against going to law school at all? I feel like if you've spent time in this forum you'll see how important it is to talk to real practicing lawyers about what it is like to be a lawyer, which is what you're trained for when you go to law school. I know there's good arguments to be realistic about goals for people who have tunnel vision or realize they can't get "unicorn jobs" but you don't even seem to know what your unicorn jobs would be, just that you want them. Overall, your concerns, to me at least, don't even sound NU/Harvard specific really, but go more to the core "why law?" question. You know what else gets you debt free? Not going to law school at all.

Pick a school, defer admissions for a year or two, and then revisit this. You can always reapply then if you feel like you made the wrong decision. But you don't sound like someone I'd recommend to go to law school right now from what little you've posted.

Same thought.

[cc1012]

However, I, admittedly, have little experience with many of the options that law school can provide so it is hard for me to define these options that I may be interested in.

I'm interested in politics and maybe running for an elected office someday. I could also see myself enjoying various public interest options or even taking a more business-oriented route.

I mean you have great options but I mean, doesn't the above counsel against going to law school at all? I feel like if you've spent time in this forum you'll see how important it is to talk to real practicing lawyers about what it is like to be a lawyer, which is what you're trained for when you go to law school. I know there's good arguments to be realistic about goals for people who have tunnel vision or realize they can't get "unicorn jobs" but you don't even seem to know what your unicorn jobs would be, just that you want them. Overall, your concerns, to me at least, don't even sound NU/Harvard specific really, but go more to the core "why law?" question. You know what else gets you debt free? Not going to law school at all.

Pick a school, defer admissions for a year or two, and then revisit this. You can always reapply then if you feel like you made the wrong decision. But you don't sound like someone I'd recommend to go to law school right now from what little you've posted.

It seems that the worst outcome for me with my background is biglaw and $150k debt. Now, I'm not saying that I would dislike biglaw at all. Just that I'm not sure whether I would like it or not as I hear the horror stories and have never worked at a IP biglaw firm myself. Objectively, a biglaw career as an IP attorney is still a good outcome IMO.

I'm a 0L and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't three years of school plenty of time to find something to be interested in?

[Cow]

Objectively, a biglaw career as an IP attorney is still a good outcome IMO.

Correct. However, keep in mind that there is a big difference between an objectively good outcome and a subjectively good outcome. Just because many people view that as a decent outcome doesn't mean that you'll be happy if you have that outcome. And if you end up hating it, no amount of objective logic will make you hate it any less, particularly if you're forking over $1,000+/month on loan payments.

I'm still in law school so I can't give you advice on what BigLaw is actually like. But as general anecdotal evidence, law is vastly different than what I imagined it to be as a 0L, and no doubt the actual practice of law will be vastly different than how I picture it in law school. That doesn't mean I dislike it, but it does mean that I'm much more cautious in terms of optimistically assuming BigLaw is always a wise choice for everyone/a magic pill that will fix the mistake of going to law school if you don't really want to be a lawyer.

I'm a 0L and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't three years of school plenty of time to find something to be interested in?

Again, you're correct assuming you know for sure that you want to practice law. Three years of school is also enough time to realize you've made a terrible mistake and you hate hate law but you're saddled with massive debt so you're stuck in BigLaw for almost a decade. Going in to law school unsure of what area of law you want to practice is fine. Going into law school unsure if you want to practice law is a disaster.

If you think politics is your endgame and that's what motivates you, don't go to law school. You'd be better off doing something else and aggressively building ties in your local community so that you'll have a solid foothold and name recognition when you eventually run for office. Local ties will help you far more than a law degree.

[cc1012]

Objectively, a biglaw career as an IP attorney is still a good outcome IMO.

Correct. However, keep in mind that there is a big difference between an objectively good outcome and a subjectively good outcome. Just because many people view that as a decent outcome doesn't mean that you'll be happy if you have that outcome. And if you end up hating it, no amount of objective logic will make you hate it any less, particularly if you're forking over $1,000+/month on loan payments.

I'm still in law school so I can't give you advice on what BigLaw is actually like. But as general anecdotal evidence, law is vastly different than what I imagined it to be as a 0L, and no doubt the actual practice of law will be vastly different than how I picture it in law school. That doesn't mean I dislike it, but it does mean that I'm much more cautious in terms of optimistically assuming BigLaw is always a wise choice for everyone/a magic pill that will fix the mistake of going to law school if you don't really want to be a lawyer.

I'm a 0L and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't three years of school plenty of time to find something to be interested in?

Again, you're correct assuming you know for sure that you want to practice law. Three years of school is also enough time to realize you've made a terrible mistake and you hate hate law but you're saddled with massive debt so you're stuck in BigLaw for almost a decade. Going in to law school unsure of what area of law you want to practice is fine. Going into law school unsure if you want to practice law is a disaster.

If you think politics is your endgame and that's what motivates you, don't go to law school. You'd be better off doing something else and aggressively building ties in your local community so that you'll have a solid foothold and name recognition when you eventually run for office. Local ties will help you far more than a law degree.

Very good points. Many people go into law school having never worked with the law before. So I think that a lot of people are in for a surprise when law school isn't exactly what they pictured it to be. I would say that is very hard to be sure that you want to practice something when so many 0Ls have misconceptions about what law actually entails. So I guess the question would be, do many students at HYS go into debt to find out that law isn't what they thought that it would be and wind up in significant debt? It is definitely something that I will have to ask around about.

As for the politics, it is definitely an interest, but I certainly wouldn't consider it to be my endgame.

Not trying to argue with you here. Just trying to get some more opinions flowing about my choices.