UVA at sticker vs. Indiana full ride?! Help Forum

[strongbadge]

Hey all,

I would love to attend UVA - even at sticker - but I am married with a child and the COA is astronomical. If I go to UVA I'll have to take out 240K in loans over the three years. The issue though is, I don't really want to do biglaw. So I'm not sure how I could manage such a huge debt load otherwise.

On the other hand I have an opportunity to attend a T25 school on a full ride. I don't really like that idea either because Indiana just squeaked into the top 25 this year. Also, they are farther from home and have significantly weaker job prospects. Also I have fallen in love with all things UVA already.

Let me know what you guys think...

[smile0751]

Bloomington is also a great college town. While it is a bit more isolated then Charlottesville, I think it would also be a great place to study for 3 years. I'm not sure about the quality of local schools (if your child is at that age). I actually think Charlottesville and Bloomington are more similar than different.

However, comparing what I know of UVA and IU, I got an impression when I visited that there was a difference in the quality of the school and, maybe in some ways, the students. IU, however, does seem to be on an uptrend and I'm not sure if UVA at sticker is ever worth it (although there are a lot of people at UVA paying sticker).

Where do you want to work? That might decide what's best. Both Indiana and Virginia have a lot of law schools in the state, which may make competition for local jobs hard. But Notre Dame is probably the best law school in Indiana, while UVA is the best law school in Virginia.

[baal hadad]

Rankings don't matter; "top 25" means nothing

Don't go to IU unless you really want to work in Indiana

I wouldn't go to uva at sticker tho

[splitterfromhell]

Is there no middle ground here?

[TheRealSantaClaus]

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[fliptrip]

Sticker anywhere is a risky proposition, but if you are willing and able to commit to a PI/Government job for 10 years, Virginia's LRAP is decent enough to keep you from financial ruin. Definitely take a close look at it and see what you think. If everything works, you could go to UVA and pay not a single dime.

[kade]

Hey all,

I would love to attend UVA - even at sticker - but I am married with a child and the COA is astronomical. If I go to UVA I'll have to take out 240K in loans over the three years. The issue though is, I don't really want to do biglaw. So I'm not sure how I could manage such a huge debt load otherwise.

On the other hand I have an opportunity to attend a T25 school on a full ride. I don't really like that idea either because Indiana just squeaked into the top 25 this year. Also, they are farther from home and have significantly weaker job prospects. Also I have fallen in love with all things UVA already.

Let me know what you guys think...

You probably have acceptances from other schools as well. You should be using offers from other schools, hopefully they are better than Indiana at full ride, to negotiate with UVA. If you can't get them to budge, I would reapply, or consider your other options.

[raven1231]

Fwiw only 30% of grads from IU stayed in Indiana. A lot went to Chicago and new York. Also. IU has traditionally been a top twenty school just dropped last year is all. I'd go to IU on a full ride.

[Tls2016]

Hey all,

I would love to attend UVA - even at sticker - but I am married with a child and the COA is astronomical. If I go to UVA I'll have to take out 240K in loans over the three years. The issue though is, I don't really want to do biglaw. So I'm not sure how I could manage such a huge debt load otherwise.

On the other hand I have an opportunity to attend a T25 school on a full ride. I don't really like that idea either because Indiana just squeaked into the top 25 this year. Also, they are farther from home and have significantly weaker job prospects. Also I have fallen in love with all things UVA already.

Let me know what you guys think...

You probably have acceptances from other schools as well. You should be using offers from other schools, hopefully they are better than Indiana at full ride, to negotiate with UVA. If you can't get them to budge, I would reapply, or consider your other options.

Has anyone successfully negotiated with Virginia? They were drawing a hard line. Spivey said they over enrolled last year so they have deferrals and they gave out a number of Dillards, so they are holding their medians without negotiating.

[Tls2016]

Fwiw only 30% of grads from IU stayed in Indiana. A lot went to Chicago and new York. Also. IU has traditionally been a top twenty school just dropped last year is all. I'd go to IU on a full ride.

Yes. IU is not regional to Indiana but you need to be a top student to get a biglaw job. But OP doesn't want biglaw and won't have debt. I think IU is a no brainer.

UVA at sticker is insanity.

[raven1231]

Absolutely, especially if op has no interest in big law. Op if you don't mind me asking what are your stats?

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Fwiw only 30% of grads from IU stayed in Indiana. A lot went to Chicago and new York. Also. IU has traditionally been a top twenty school just dropped last year is all. I'd go to IU on a full ride.

Yes. IU is not regional to Indiana but you need to be a top student to get a biglaw job. But OP doesn't want biglaw and won't have debt. I think IU is a no brainer.

UVA at sticker is insanity.

Agree.

If anyone is voting UVA, they are clearly a UVA troll and/or ignorant 0L/law student who has never worked biglaw nor paid back any debt.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

.

[Tls2016]

Fwiw only 30% of grads from IU stayed in Indiana. A lot went to Chicago and new York. Also. IU has traditionally been a top twenty school just dropped last year is all. I'd go to IU on a full ride.

Yes. IU is not regional to Indiana but you need to be a top student to get a biglaw job. But OP doesn't want biglaw and won't have debt. I think IU is a no brainer.

UVA at sticker is insanity.

Agree.

If anyone is voting UVA, they are clearly a UVA troll and/or ignorant 0L/law student who has never worked biglaw nor paid back any debt.

I understand much of the reasoning for being against UVA at sticker, but don't act like the choice is rediculous. Virginia is an elite school with a large national alumni network in high places. IU, though a good school, is not UVA. If OP has a caeer goal that may lead him/her to qualify for LRAP (which sounds like a possibility), he or she could do fine out of UVA. And down the line, a UVA degree can open doors around the country that IU likely never could.

I'm not saying that OP should choose UVA at sticker without first considering the high cost, but don't act like IU is a slam dunk here.

You are absolutely wrong. What door down the line will UVA open? After your first job, your work and reputation matter the most. That debt is no joke and LRAP has lots of drawbacks, some real and some based on somewhat realistic fears that the program can be capped because it's paired with IBR payments meaning ever increasing debt.

No one should pay sticker at UVA if they are debt financing the cost. It's even more clear when you have a family and a child to provide for and you know you don't want a biglaw career.

Also, OP hasn't provided the debt he will actually owe at graduation. He will borrow a quarter of a million dollars and he hasn't included the interest he will owe that is running from the day he borrows the money. It's probably another $20,000 or so.

Even if OP is on UVA LRAP, he loses it when he makes more than $75,000. These programs have to be examined carefully.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

.

[Tls2016]

Look, as I said, I understand the argument against UVA at sticker, but it's not an indefensible option.

I never said that LRAP was a perfect solution here. I understand it has it's limits and risks (just like choosing IU here does). I merely suggested OP take a good look at Virginia's program to see if it fits his goals. I think we can both agree that he/she should do plenty of research.

As for doors that will be closed, again I will reiterate: UVA is an elite school with a truely national network. You can find UVA alumni in highly regarded firms just about anywhere in the country. It's much harder to find IU alumni in the same places. Additionally, should OP decide he wants to pursue a clerkship or prestigious PI, UVA has a massive advantage.

I also don't buy your argument that school becomes largely irrelevant after your first job. Two things still matter to many employers: your school and your grades. That's not even mentioning the power of alumni connections that I mentioned earlier. Just look at the facts: law jobs at the highest level at both the private and public sector are full of T-14 grads.

OP, it's strange to think that your only options here are IU and UVA at sticker. One would think that Vandy with a scholarship or maybe Duke would be on the table here. Regardless, if you're really only picking between these two options, I think either can be defensible, despite what the majority opinion here seems to be.

OP has a chance to go to law school for just COL in a cheap place. UVA at sticker is not defensible for OP when he doesn't want a career in biglaw, has a family to support and seems realistically debt averse.
How much debt are you taking out to go to school as you seem willing to push others into it? Just curious. I'm assuming you are an 0L and haven't had to try to repay or seen others try to repay more than a quarter of a million dollars in debt.

A quick calculation of the payment on $240,000 of debt ( didn't include interest) is $2,761.93 a month for 10 years.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

.

[Tls2016]

Look, as I said, I understand the argument against UVA at sticker, but it's not an indefensible option.

I never said that LRAP was a perfect solution here. I understand it has it's limits and risks (just like choosing IU here does). I merely suggested OP take a good look at Virginia's program to see if it fits his goals. I think we can both agree that he/she should do plenty of research.

As for doors that will be closed, again I will reiterate: UVA is an elite school with a truely national network. You can find UVA alumni in highly regarded firms just about anywhere in the country. It's much harder to find IU alumni in the same places. Additionally, should OP decide he wants to pursue a clerkship or prestigious PI, UVA has a massive advantage.

I also don't buy your argument that school becomes largely irrelevant after your first job. Two things still matter to many employers: your school and your grades. That's not even mentioning the power of alumni connections that I mentioned earlier. Just look at the facts: law jobs at the highest level at both the private and public sector are full of T-14 grads.

OP, it's strange to think that your only options here are IU and UVA at sticker. One would think that Vandy with a scholarship or maybe Duke would be on the table here. Regardless, if you're really only picking between these two options, I think either can be defensible, despite what the majority opinion here seems to be.

OP has a chance to go to law school for just COL in a cheap place. UVA at sticker is not defensible for OP when he doesn't want a career in biglaw, has a family to support and seems realistically debt averse.
How much debt are you taking out to go to school as you seem willing to push others into it? Just curious. I'm assuming you are an 0L and haven't had to try to repay or seen others try to repay more than a quarter of a million dollars in debt.

A quick calculation of the payment on $240,000 of debt ( didn't include interest) is $2,761.93 a month for 10 years.

OP has a chance to go to a regional law school for just COL, so he should take it? Your logic is incomplete. You never once thought of where he/she wanted to practice, or what non-biglaw job OP desires.

Look, OP clearly indicated he/she likes UVA. If he/she wants to go there, there are ways to make it happen. Yes, it will be expensive, and if there was a way to get more scholarship money (ie. retake), I would advise that route. As it stands, though, who are you to tell them that their dreams are unfeasible when they may not be?

I really do appreciate this debate, as your debt calculations are providing OP with great information in making the decision to go to either school. However, you can throw these numbers around all day and forget that there are benefits of paying to attend a school of UVA's caliber that may absolutely be worthwhile to someone.

how qualified are you to tell a guy with a family to take on massive debt that can only be paid by biglaw that he should take it? You didn't answer my question about the level of debt you are under taking for school.

I am a former biglaw lawyer with 6+ years of experience( though I missed a great deal of time on disability) I have seen people struggle with debt. I have seen people being stuck in biglaw that hate it.

OP doesn't want biglaw. I saw nothing in OPs post about wanting public interest. How is he going to pay his loans? Even in biglaw, more than a quarter million dollars in debt is tough to repay.

If OP does PAYE, he will be watching his debt grow at massive levels while his child is growing up. His child will be in their mid 20s before OP can discharge his unpaid debt, which he will then have to deal with the tax bomb.

Maybe OP shouldn't go to law school at all under these circumstances.

[raven1231]

I don't understand how going to UVA at sticker could ever make sense unless you were exceptionally wealthy and didn't care, or were a gambling man interested in big law. Neither of which seem to be true for OP.

Even if OP does want a PI position IU still makes more sense. Not to mention any PI/Gov job that would be "so out of reach for IU" would likely be for UVA as well. Typically government positions more heavily weigh what you bring to the table than where you went to school, essentially pulling from all T2 and up schools.

And as TLS2016 said after your first job where you went to school becomes significantly less important for nearly every industry.

[Traynor Brah]

UVA at sticker is a profoundly terrible idea, in essentially any circumstance.

Indiana, even for minimal debt, is also a puzzling idea for one who has no interest in living in Indiana--it's a regional school without much of a reputation or placement outside of Indiana. And by OP's phrasing, it sounds like he or she does not even live in the Midwest. Irrespective of OP's specific career goals, it's a poor idea. USNWR rankings are completely and entirely meaningless outside of designating the ~T14 (which is itself quite meaningless, but at least reflects real-life prestige with respect to biglaw employment and federal clerkships). Some nebulous "T25" designation is useless.

Attend the school that provides the best combination of 1) job placement in your preferred long-term region/city, 2) job placement in your preferred career path, and 3) cost of attendance. With respect to the third, if you are uninterested in biglaw, there are few circumstances where I'd be OK with >~100K in debt. That advice means you may have to wait another year.

[Traynor Brah]

Fwiw only 30% of grads from IU stayed in Indiana. A lot went to Chicago and new York. Also. IU has traditionally been a top twenty school just dropped last year is all. I'd go to IU on a full ride.

Even if OP does want a PI position IU still makes more sense. Not to mention any PI/Gov job that would be "so out of reach for IU" would likely be for UVA as well. Typically government positions more heavily weigh what you bring to the table than where you went to school, essentially pulling from all T2 and up schools.

And as TLS2016 said after your first job where you went to school becomes significantly less important for nearly every industry.

IU does "make more sense," but only because it is not the equivalent of committing suicide. Indiana does not set up OP for success.

The first quote is poor advice all-around, and the second quote is misinformed, or is at least quite overstated. As a 0L, try to stay on the side of not giving advice, as a general rule.

[raven1231]

Fwiw only 30% of grads from IU stayed in Indiana. A lot went to Chicago and new York. Also. IU has traditionally been a top twenty school just dropped last year is all. I'd go to IU on a full ride.

Even if OP does want a PI position IU still makes more sense. Not to mention any PI/Gov job that would be "so out of reach for IU" would likely be for UVA as well. Typically government positions more heavily weigh what you bring to the table than where you went to school, essentially pulling from all T2 and up schools.

And as TLS2016 said after your first job where you went to school becomes significantly less important for nearly every industry.

IU does "make more sense," but only because it is not the equivalent of committing suicide. Indiana does not set up OP for success.

The first quote is poor advice all-around, and the second quote is misinformed, or is at least quite overstated. As a 0L, try to stay on the side of not giving advice, as a general rule.

Point taken but I don't understand how the first quote is wrong all around? It is statistically based. Look up IU's placement on any site, they place 30% in IN, with the next biggest market in Chicago ect. Same goes for their ranking. As for the second quote it was pulled from where places such as the DOJ pull from. It's posted on their site, and last year was from all school T2 and up in their respective states.

[Paul Campos]

UVA has published its 2016-17 tuition, and with interest and fees, sticker debt is $296K if you're a resident and $307K if you're not.

[Traynor Brah]

I don't understand how the first quote is wrong all around? It is statistically based. Look up IU's placement on any site, they place 30% in IN, with the next biggest market in Chicago ect. Same goes for their ranking. As for the second quote it was pulled from where places such as the DOJ pull from. It's posted on their site, and last year was from all school T2 and up in their respective states.

Fwiw only 30% of grads from IU stayed in Indiana. A lot went to Chicago and new York. Also. IU has traditionally been a top twenty school just dropped last year is all. I'd go to IU on a full ride.

It doesn't matter that "a lot" went to Chicago and New York. If OP wants to go to Chicago or New York, she should pick a school that has a more solid reputation in that city and places more people there--OP will only have a small chance of going to either if she has top grades, which you can't assume. Also, the stat is that 12% went to "Illinois." While we can assume a fair chunk was Chicago, we have to assume a lot of those were low-quality jobs elsewhere in Illinois, considering IU's placement statistics. And then less than 5% of the class went to NYC. that's not a meaningful statistic.

And it doesn't matter that 30% "stayed in Indiana." First, more than a third of the class cannot find jobs as attorneys. I'm sure if they could have found a job in Indiana, they would have taken one. Because IU is a regional, state flagship school, that 30% stat is more an indictment of Indiana's legal market than student interest in working in Indiana. Second, the degree has added value in Indiana, and does not much have added value elsewhere: it doesn't have much of a meaningful reputation outside that state/maybe its neighbors. (See e.g. Biglaw/fed clerk stats).

USNWR rankings aren't even a little relevant outside of their designating the ~T14, as has been discussed on these forums ad nauseum. Uprooting and moving to some random school in a region you don't care about, where a third of students are unemployed almost a year after graduating, because some magazine tells you the school is incrementally more "prestigious" than an option that makes better sense w/r/t where you want to live and practice, is profoundly bad reasoning.

Just because you would go to IU on a full ride does not mean it's a good idea for OP. You appear to be from like southern Ohio; it's a move that would seem to make more sense for you, and probably wouldn't be a poor option.

[baal hadad]

Look, as I said, I understand the argument against UVA at sticker, but it's not an indefensible option.

I never said that LRAP was a perfect solution here. I understand it has it's limits and risks (just like choosing IU here does). I merely suggested OP take a good look at Virginia's program to see if it fits his goals. I think we can both agree that he/she should do plenty of research.

As for doors that will be closed, again I will reiterate: UVA is an elite school with a truely national network. You can find UVA alumni in highly regarded firms just about anywhere in the country. It's much harder to find IU alumni in the same places. Additionally, should OP decide he wants to pursue a clerkship or prestigious PI, UVA has a massive advantage.

I also don't buy your argument that school becomes largely irrelevant after your first job. Two things still matter to many employers: your school and your grades. That's not even mentioning the power of alumni connections that I mentioned earlier. Just look at the facts: law jobs at the highest level at both the private and public sector are full of T-14 grads.

OP, it's strange to think that your only options here are IU and UVA at sticker. One would think that Vandy with a scholarship or maybe Duke would be on the table here. Regardless, if you're really only picking between these two options, I think either can be defensible, despite what the majority opinion here seems to be.

OP has a chance to go to law school for just COL in a cheap place. UVA at sticker is not defensible for OP when he doesn't want a career in biglaw, has a family to support and seems realistically debt averse.
How much debt are you taking out to go to school as you seem willing to push others into it? Just curious. I'm assuming you are an 0L and haven't had to try to repay or seen others try to repay more than a quarter of a million dollars in debt.

A quick calculation of the payment on $240,000 of debt ( didn't include interest) is $2,761.93 a month for 10 years.

OP has a chance to go to a regional law school for just COL, so he should take it? Your logic is incomplete. You never once thought of where he/she wanted to practice, or what non-biglaw job OP desires.

Look, OP clearly indicated he/she likes UVA. If he/she wants to go there, there are ways to make it happen. Yes, it will be expensive, and if there was a way to get more scholarship money (ie. retake), I would advise that route. As it stands, though, who are you to tell them that their dreams are unfeasible when they may not be?

I really do appreciate this debate, as your debt calculations are providing OP with great information in making the decision to go to either school. However, you can throw these numbers around all day and forget that there are benefits of paying to attend a school of UVA's caliber that may absolutely be worthwhile to someone.

Tou are clearly and 0L who has no idea what they're talking about

I'll come out and say it - debt financing uva sticker will cost >$300k and is a bad idea for everyone