UCLA, UT-Austin, Northwestern bonus round Forum

[87mm]

Hey everyone. I went through first rounds of negotiation and ended up with decent offers. Deadlines are coming up to decide which school to attend, however, I just received surprise offers from UT and Northwestern.

I posted in an earlier thread from other choices and ended up with UCLA as my top choice (before UT and NW came up).

Background:
I have work experience and was a STEM major in undergrad/grad school. Taken LSAT 3 times and applied in January. My stats are 167/3.65 from top engineering program.

Goals:
Looking at going into Intellectual Property. I have not decided between litigation or prosecution, however, I am currently studying for the patent bar which I plan to have prior to starting in the fall. I am looking for biglaw salary, possibly working at a boutique if I go the prosecution route. I am very interested in working in Southern California because I have a few friends/family there.

Financial situation:
Older applicant in my late 20s. I have saved up enough to cover a good chunk of student loans for the first year OR use my savings to spread out for misc spending over 3 years. I do have slight parental help for rent, however, I am hoping to not burden them.

Offers ($ / graduation debt):
UCLA (80K / ~85K)
UT (45K + Instate / ~60K)
NW (75K / ~115K)


I attempted a 2nd round of negotiation with UCLA because it is currently my top choice, but funds are limited.

Any suggestions? I am open to living in Texas because of the cheaper CoL, but I dont know much about the patent market out there. Anyone from UT have any input on quality of life and culture in Texas?

Thank you.

[trebekismyhero]

NU places well in Southern Cal and if you want the safe big law route go there. But UCLA still isn't bad at that price and if you are any southern cal law>NY/Chi big law then go there.

UT at that price is very solid, but if you've never spent time in TX I am not sure I would be willing to do that. UT is very good but more likely than not you'll end up in TX and you should know if you like it.

[87mm]

NU places well in Southern Cal and if you want the safe big law route go there. But UCLA still isn't bad at that price and if you are any southern cal law>NY/Chi big law then go there.

UT at that price is very solid, but if you've never spent time in TX I am not sure I would be willing to do that. UT is very good but more likely than not you'll end up in TX and you should know if you like it.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah as it stands I think NW is out. I have zero plans to ever work in NY or Chicago. I've lived in the cold north and it is not for me. I much prefer the south/west coast.

Unfortunately, flights to Texas are ~750 bucks and I have a week to make a choice... I doubt I can use the UT offer to get UCLA to budge with my numbers. I was told funds are tight and they gave me a good offer for them.

[ponderingmeerkat]

NU places well in Southern Cal and if you want the safe big law route go there. But UCLA still isn't bad at that price and if you are any southern cal law>NY/Chi big law then go there.

UT at that price is very solid, but if you've never spent time in TX I am not sure I would be willing to do that. UT is very good but more likely than not you'll end up in TX and you should know if you like it.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah as it stands I think NW is out. I have zero plans to ever work in NY or Chicago. I've lived in the cold north and it is not for me. I much prefer the south/west coast.

Unfortunately, flights to Texas are ~750 bucks and I have a week to make a choice... I doubt I can use the UT offer to get UCLA to budge with my numbers. I was told funds are tight and they gave me a good offer for them.

Dude...quite frankly, I think you need to seriously reconsider NU. The idea of making important life-decisions based on weather preferences is unsupportable. You'll be there for only three years...suck it up buttercup.

More doors will be open to you with a nationally portable degree and, while I'm usually a proponent of reducing your debt exposure, an extra $50K for a NU vs. UCLA/UT degree is very justifiable. Both UCLA and UT will lock you into a specific region for a good portion of your life. At 29, I don't think you're qualified to extrapolate your geographical preferences/needs on 39/49/59 year-old versions of yourself. Don't start narrowing options and closing doors for your future self simply because your "toesies might get cold".

[87mm]

NU places well in Southern Cal and if you want the safe big law route go there. But UCLA still isn't bad at that price and if you are any southern cal law>NY/Chi big law then go there.

UT at that price is very solid, but if you've never spent time in TX I am not sure I would be willing to do that. UT is very good but more likely than not you'll end up in TX and you should know if you like it.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah as it stands I think NW is out. I have zero plans to ever work in NY or Chicago. I've lived in the cold north and it is not for me. I much prefer the south/west coast.

Unfortunately, flights to Texas are ~750 bucks and I have a week to make a choice... I doubt I can use the UT offer to get UCLA to budge with my numbers. I was told funds are tight and they gave me a good offer for them.

Dude...quite frankly, I think you need to seriously reconsider NU. The idea of making important life-decisions based on weather preferences is unsupportable. You'll be there for only three years...suck it up buttercup.

More doors will be open to you with a nationally portable degree and, while I'm usually a proponent of reducing your debt exposure, an extra $50K for a NU vs. UCLA/UT degree is very justifiable. Both UCLA and UT will lock you into a specific region for a good portion of your life. At 29, I don't think you're qualified to extrapolate your geographical preferences/needs on 39/49/59 year-old versions of yourself. Don't start narrowing options and closing doors for your future self simply because your "toesies might get cold".

Thanks for the input. The national placement is very appealing. Just knowing I am more mobile is one of the reasons I am considering NU despite the debt. I definitely have no idea where my career will take me and my needs could definitely change.

I have lived in Hawaii, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Tokyo, and have spent considerable time in Boston and LA as well. Although TX and Socal aspirations are not motivated by weather, it is important (and I never expected it to be until I moved to the midwest). Things could change in the 3 years I am in law school, but as it stands I cant see myself working in NY/DC/Chicago. I love LA because of the connections and family I have there along with the lifestyle. I plan to go into IP and California is great for that along with Texas.

The 50K more for NU isn't much when I compare it to law school debt averages. NU placement in California is also a benefit, but is it worth taking an extra 50K if I will most likely end up there anyways and could take the UCLA discount for similar prospects?

Btw, would you all recommend using cost of attendance breakdowns from the school website, LSTscorereports, or US news? The 3 sources change my CoA vastly....

[ponderingmeerkat]

Thanks for the input. The national placement is very appealing. Just knowing I am more mobile is one of the reasons I am considering NU despite the debt. I definitely have no idea where my career will take me and my needs could definitely change.

I have lived in Hawaii, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Tokyo, and have spent considerable time in Boston and LA as well. Although TX and Socal aspirations are not motivated by weather, it is important (and I never expected it to be until I moved to the midwest). Things could change in the 3 years I am in law school, but as it stands I cant see myself working in NY/DC/Chicago. I love LA because of the connections and family I have there along with the lifestyle. I plan to go into IP and California is great for that along with Texas.

The 50K more for NU isn't much when I compare it to law school debt averages. NU placement in California is also a benefit, but is it worth taking an extra 50K if I will most likely end up there anyways and could take the UCLA discount for similar prospects?

Btw, would you all recommend using cost of attendance breakdowns from the school website, LSTscorereports, or US news? The 3 sources change my CoA vastly....

I think most on this site use LST reports for COA calculations. There's certainly going to be variability between sources, so I'd stick with an apples-to-apples comparison where possible (LST's NU numbers compared to LST's UCLA numbers).

Completely understand the desire to avoid NYC/DC/Chi/etc. and it's good to hear I misinterpreted your weather statement as bring the main issue here. Ultimately, I'd look at this choice very analytically. Which school provides the best ROI (especially since NU's placement in California is solid)? NU's biglaw placement rates are 55.7% compared to UT's 35.9% and UCLA's 35.1%. That makes the extra $50K above UT and extra $35K above UCLA legitimately supportable.

Throw in life's variability (maybe you meet an significant other from Denver and they suddenly need to be close to ailing parents; maybe you have a child with leukemia and you need to uproot/support your family while they receive specialized treatment in a distant city) and the value of knowing you can travel and not be unemployed is important (not $200K more in debt "worth it" but arguably $35K-$50K more in debt).

[trmckenz]

As someone who works in IP, you will be highly employable from any of these programs. It comes down to geographical preference, at least for landing your first job, and because of your communicated preference for SoCal, the answer is UCLA. It's that easy. Go enjoy the sun and your family.

I say it's an easy decision because you mentioned you don't like the cold, you can't see yourself working where NU places the most graduates, and the cost is $50k more; therefore, it should be easy to cross off NU. While a JD from NU may be more "national" because of its T14 status, it seems that you are mature enough to realize how little that actually matters for your goals. IP (particularly patent prosecution) attorneys are in demand, and a JD from UCLA (or UT if you wanted Texas) won't hold you back one bit.

Just to share an interesting data point with respect to patent work: the highest number of patent infringement filings is in the Northern District of California (Bay Area), whereas the second highest number of patent infringement filings is in the Eastern District of Texas (Dallas). I'm sure there is plenty of patent work in SoCal too, and a degree from UCLA could certainly carry up to the Bay Area (or an LA office of a Bay Area firm).

Good luck Bruin.

[87mm]

Thanks for the input. The national placement is very appealing. Just knowing I am more mobile is one of the reasons I am considering NU despite the debt. I definitely have no idea where my career will take me and my needs could definitely change.

I have lived in Hawaii, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana, Tokyo, and have spent considerable time in Boston and LA as well. Although TX and Socal aspirations are not motivated by weather, it is important (and I never expected it to be until I moved to the midwest). Things could change in the 3 years I am in law school, but as it stands I cant see myself working in NY/DC/Chicago. I love LA because of the connections and family I have there along with the lifestyle. I plan to go into IP and California is great for that along with Texas.

The 50K more for NU isn't much when I compare it to law school debt averages. NU placement in California is also a benefit, but is it worth taking an extra 50K if I will most likely end up there anyways and could take the UCLA discount for similar prospects?

Btw, would you all recommend using cost of attendance breakdowns from the school website, LSTscorereports, or US news? The 3 sources change my CoA vastly....

I think most on this site use LST reports for COA calculations. There's certainly going to be variability between sources, so I'd stick with an apples-to-apples comparison where possible (LST's NU numbers compared to LST's UCLA numbers).

Completely understand the desire to avoid NYC/DC/Chi/etc. and it's good to hear I misinterpreted your weather statement as bring the main issue here. Ultimately, I'd look at this choice very analytically. Which school provides the best ROI (especially since NU's placement in California is solid)? NU's biglaw placement rates are 55.7% compared to UT's 35.9% and UCLA's 35.1%. That makes the extra $50K above UT and extra $35K above UCLA legitimately supportable.

Throw in life's variability (maybe you meet an significant other from Denver and they suddenly need to be close to ailing parents; maybe you have a child with leukemia and you need to uproot/support your family while they receive specialized treatment in a distant city) and the value of knowing you can travel and not be unemployed is important (not $200K more in debt "worth it" but arguably $35K-$50K more in debt).

Very valid point. The biglaw placement numbers are hard to argue against. 55% biglaw is very forgiving compared to 35%. I was banking on my background and IP qualifications to help offset it just in case I have a bad year.

I just now used the CoA calculator provided by the sticky on this subforum. Keeping everything consistent with expenses outside of things listed on their website for books/tuition. It turns out NU is ~68K more expensive than UCLA at *repayment*. And UCLA is 22K more expensive than UT.

At what point is the cost going to be not worth the increased placement? I appreciate all your help. It's good to get feedback and challenges to my thought process!

[87mm]

As someone who works in IP, you will be highly employable from any of these programs. It comes down to geographical preference, at least for landing your first job, and because of your communicated preference for SoCal, the answer is UCLA. It's that easy. Go enjoy the sun and your family.

I say it's an easy decision because you mentioned you don't like the cold, you can't see yourself working where NU places the most graduates, and the cost is $50k more; therefore, it should be easy to cross off NU. While a JD from NU may be more "national" because of its T14 status, it seems that you are mature enough to realize how little that actually matters for your goals. IP (particularly patent prosecution) attorneys are in demand, and a JD from UCLA (or UT if you wanted Texas) won't hold you back one bit.

Just to share an interesting data point with respect to patent work: the highest number of patent infringement filings is in the Northern District of California (Bay Area), whereas the second highest number of patent infringement filings is in the Eastern District of Texas (Dallas). I'm sure there is plenty of patent work in SoCal too, and a degree from UCLA could certainly carry up to the Bay Area (or an LA office of a Bay Area firm).

Good luck Bruin.

Thanks! sorry for the back to back posts. As you said someone being highly employable, how is it compared to your non IP classmates? I hear that "its not as bad if you're not top 1/3". If IP is that much of a safe bet then UCLA may be the right choice (or UT for the price).

Thanks for the heads up on the infringement filings. I didnt realize Bay Area was that huge, but it makes sense given the number of startups and tech companies. My best friend is a computer engineer up there so working up there would be pretty cool haha.

[trmckenz]

Full disclosure - I'm a 0L (starting law school this fall), but I've been working as a patent agent in BigLaw for 3+ years. I've interviewed entry-level and lateral candidates, and have been an active member of the hiring decision process with partners and associates. Patent prosecution hiring basically comes down to:

1) Can you do the work? A degree from a T20 school shows intellectual competency and USPTO registration is a plus, but in patent prosecution, even at the entry level, work experience is king. Most importantly, your undergrad degree/technical background will dictate which technologies you will be staffed on (although there can be some crossover). Most firms look to hire specific backgrounds based on clients' needs - e.g., we are seeking a registered patent attorney with an electrical engineering background to do work for a large software client, a chemical engineering background for a pharmaceutical client, etc.

2) Are you normal... enough? Cultural fit is very important at law firms. However, it's much more of a "can I stand communicating with this person at 9pm on a Thursday night when I'm tired and trust that work product quality is sufficient?" question than bias toward any particular demographic or personality type. Attention to detail and some readiness to take ownership of work product is probably required.

To some extent these two points are true for all legal hiring, but non-IP hiring differs in that it is much more traditional - e.g., go to a top school and/or get great grades to get interviews. This is because, apart from summer associate positions, there are fewer opportunities for non-IP students to get real-world practitioner experience in law school. Conversely, in IP, experience trumps all, and the limited supply of qualified attorneys creates real market demand. There will be plenty of opportunities to build your patent experience while in school (assuming you're in SoCal, Austin, or Chicago). If you focus on getting patent prosecution experience in law school, you should be set.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Very valid point. The biglaw placement numbers are hard to argue against. 55% biglaw is very forgiving compared to 35%. I was banking on my background and IP qualifications to help offset it just in case I have a bad year.

I just now used the CoA calculator provided by the sticky on this subforum. Keeping everything consistent with expenses outside of things listed on their website for books/tuition. It turns out NU is ~68K more expensive than UCLA at *repayment*. And UCLA is 22K more expensive than UT.

At what point is the cost going to be not worth the increased placement? I appreciate all your help. It's good to get feedback and challenges to my thought process!

Oooph...those numbers are significantly different! So now, as opposed to being only 35K more than UCLA, NU is almost 70K more and a full 90K more than UT. Yea, I think NU starts to look significantly worse off given this new data.

As I see it, paying 70K for a 20% increase in opportunity is very expensive. The old numbers (35K investment for a 20% increase in placement) were much much closer to making sense in a world where biglaw pays 160K a year starting out. Now, the numbers are pointing towards UCLA, IMO.

[87mm]

Very valid point. The biglaw placement numbers are hard to argue against. 55% biglaw is very forgiving compared to 35%. I was banking on my background and IP qualifications to help offset it just in case I have a bad year.

I just now used the CoA calculator provided by the sticky on this subforum. Keeping everything consistent with expenses outside of things listed on their website for books/tuition. It turns out NU is ~68K more expensive than UCLA at *repayment*. And UCLA is 22K more expensive than UT.

At what point is the cost going to be not worth the increased placement? I appreciate all your help. It's good to get feedback and challenges to my thought process!

Oooph...those numbers are significantly different! So now, as opposed to being only 35K more than UCLA, NU is almost 70K more and a full 90K more than UT. Yea, I think NU starts to look significantly worse off given this new data.

As I see it, paying 70K for a 20% increase in opportunity is very expensive. The old numbers (35K investment for a 20% increase in placement) were much much closer to making sense in a world where biglaw pays 160K a year starting out. Now, the numbers are pointing towards UCLA, IMO.

Yeah, interest and origination fees are a b****. Thanks for the help. It helped a lot. I'll try to see if I can get a slight bump up at UCLA with UT. Then decide between the 2.

Full disclosure - I'm a 0L (starting law school this fall), but I've been working as a patent agent in BigLaw for 3+ years. I've interviewed entry-level and lateral candidates, and have been an active member of the hiring decision process with partners and associates. Patent prosecution hiring basically comes down to:

1) Can you do the work? A degree from a T20 school shows intellectual competency and USPTO registration is a plus, but in patent prosecution, even at the entry level, work experience is king. Most importantly, your undergrad degree/technical background will dictate which technologies you will be staffed on (although there can be some crossover). Most firms look to hire specific backgrounds based on clients' needs - e.g., we are seeking a registered patent attorney with an electrical engineering background to do work for a large software client, a chemical engineering background for a pharmaceutical client, etc.

2) Are you normal... enough? Cultural fit is very important at law firms. However, it's much more of a "can I stand communicating with this person at 9pm on a Thursday night when I'm tired and trust that work product quality is sufficient?" question than bias toward any particular demographic or personality type. Attention to detail and some readiness to take ownership of work product is probably required.

To some extent these two points are true for all legal hiring, but non-IP hiring differs in that it is much more traditional - e.g., go to a top school and/or get great grades to get interviews. This is because, apart from summer associate positions, there are fewer opportunities for non-IP students to get real-world practitioner experience in law school. Conversely, in IP, experience trumps all, and the limited supply of qualified attorneys creates real market demand. There will be plenty of opportunities to build your patent experience while in school (assuming you're in SoCal, Austin, or Chicago). If you focus on getting patent prosecution experience in law school, you should be set.

Thank you again! Sounds like a good deal since I am taking the patent bar before law school and plan to get some work experience in IP during school. Do you know if 1L SA positions are available to IP firms if you are registered at the USPTO?

[trmckenz]

Thank you again! Sounds like a good deal since I am taking the patent bar before law school and plan to get some work experience in IP during school. Do you know if 1L SA positions are available to IP firms if you are registered at the USPTO?

While I can't speak for any firm specifically, I am confident that 1L SA positions at both IP boutiques and general practice firms in SoCal will be available for those interested in IP and who have the requisite combination of school/grades/technical background. Having a USPTO reg. number typically isn't even necessary to land one, but it would definitely help demonstrate commitment to the IP field. More than anything, obtaining your USPTO reg. number in advance would be viewed by firms as a cost/time savings since you can hit the ground running (i.e., the firm won't have to pay for patent bar prep courses or pay your salary while you're studying).

Even if you don't pass the patent bar before law school (not saying you won't pass, but it is a tough test, particularly if you have little experience with the MPEP), you should be fine if you hustle with firms in law school. However, different backgrounds have different opportunities.

What's your background in (e.g., what's your undergrad major)?

[87mm]

Thank you again! Sounds like a good deal since I am taking the patent bar before law school and plan to get some work experience in IP during school. Do you know if 1L SA positions are available to IP firms if you are registered at the USPTO?

While I can't speak for any firm specifically, I am confident that 1L SA positions at both IP boutiques and general practice firms in SoCal will be available for those interested in IP and who have the requisite combination of school/grades/technical background. Having a USPTO reg. number typically isn't even necessary to land one, but it would definitely help demonstrate commitment to the IP field. More than anything, obtaining your USPTO reg. number in advance would be viewed by firms as a cost/time savings since you can hit the ground running (i.e., the firm won't have to pay for patent bar prep courses or pay your salary while you're studying).

Even if you don't pass the patent bar before law school (not saying you won't pass, but it is a tough test, particularly if you have little experience with the MPEP), you should be fine if you hustle with firms in law school. However, different backgrounds have different opportunities.

What's your background in (e.g., what's your undergrad major)?

My undergrad was aerospace engineering @ georgia tech. grad school was robotics focused stuff (officially biomedical engineering.. but more mechanical).

[trmckenz]

My undergrad was aerospace engineering @ georgia tech. grad school was robotics focused stuff (officially biomedical engineering.. but more mechanical).

Okay awesome. This means you're qualified to work on clients across plenty of technologies, including mechanical devices, electronics/software, medical devices, and beyond. You'll be so set it's ridiculous. Work hard in law school, but enjoy the good life.

Lemme know if you have any other questions along your journey. Always happy to help.

[favabeansoup]

Any suggestions? I am open to living in Texas because of the cheaper CoL, but I dont know much about the patent market out there. Anyone from UT have any input on quality of life and culture in Texas?

Thank you.

Went to UT.

Patent Work: Google the "rocket docket eastern district texas" for patent claims. Eastern District of Texas is hearing a large number of major patent cases every year. I don't work in IP but I have many friends in Texas who do. They are consistently hiring new people and almost every single hard science background student I knew at UT had a biglaw job 1L summer, 2l summer and after graduation. Although it was much easier for them to stay and work in Texas, I knew people who went out to Bay Area and other markets for work as well.

Edit: for the lazy --> http://www.law360.com/articles/707840/t ... tent-suits. Look at the number of patent claims filed for the Eastern District of Texas vs. everything else.

Culture: If you aren't that familiar with Texas and you know you want to work in SoCal, I'd probably go to UCLA. Austin as a city is absolutely amazing. Nightlife, food, weather, pet friendly, everyone's active, still smallish,etc. Everyone wants to stay here and hence why it is one of the fastest growing cities in America. Austin legal market though is TINY still, and vast majority of law students go to work in Dallas/Houston if they decide to stay in Texas (although UT sends more and more to NY and other regions every year). Dallas and Houston are totally different cities from Austin. They are both getting cooler and trendy neighborhoods are popping up, but they are both cities that take getting used to culturally.

I've lived on both coasts and Texas culture is pretty different. It's a little weird when you peer into a parked car and see someone's target from the gun range full of bullet holes. I personally love the people, love the Tex-Mex, love the weather, and love the privacy and space I get to feel without paying an arm and a leg. The conservatism and political stuff though matter more to some people. I miss the ocean in California too.

COL: SoCal vs. Texas, Texas will always win. No state income tax, market biglaw pay, and really affordable housing prices. I think there was a survey a few years ago that placed Houston and Dallas as the top cities for comparative buying power of biglaw salaries. If you care about owning a decent sized home in the near future or maximizing your take home pay, go Texas.

My honest opinion is if you for sure want to work in SoCal, go to UCLA. They will have better local connections and alumni hiring than either UT and NU. If you are hesitant and are open to east coast or other markets, go to NU. If you think you'd like Texas, go to UT with the understanding if you work hard enough you can probably go back out to CA, but your science degree will be carrying you more than the school.


Edit: Also torn on the question of whether you should take the patent bar before law school. The vast majority of firms will not require it for summer work. I remember some of my friends taking it during 1L or 2L summer. If I remember some firms pay for it and prep? Don't take it after you graduate because you won't have much time between studying for bar and working.

[87mm]

Any suggestions? I am open to living in Texas because of the cheaper CoL, but I dont know much about the patent market out there. Anyone from UT have any input on quality of life and culture in Texas?

Thank you.

Went to UT.

Patent Work: Google the "rocket docket eastern district texas" for patent claims. Eastern District of Texas is hearing a large number of major patent cases every year. I don't work in IP but I have many friends in Texas who do. They are consistently hiring new people and almost every single hard science background student I knew at UT had a biglaw job 1L summer, 2l summer and after graduation. Although it was much easier for them to stay and work in Texas, I knew people who went out to Bay Area and other markets for work as well.

Edit: for the lazy --> http://www.law360.com/articles/707840/t ... tent-suits. Look at the number of patent claims filed for the Eastern District of Texas vs. everything else.

Culture: If you aren't that familiar with Texas and you know you want to work in SoCal, I'd probably go to UCLA. Austin as a city is absolutely amazing. Nightlife, food, weather, pet friendly, everyone's active, still smallish,etc. Everyone wants to stay here and hence why it is one of the fastest growing cities in America. Austin legal market though is TINY still, and vast majority of law students go to work in Dallas/Houston if they decide to stay in Texas (although UT sends more and more to NY and other regions every year). Dallas and Houston are totally different cities from Austin. They are both getting cooler and trendy neighborhoods are popping up, but they are both cities that take getting used to culturally.

I've lived on both coasts and Texas culture is pretty different. It's a little weird when you peer into a parked car and see someone's target from the gun range full of bullet holes. I personally love the people, love the Tex-Mex, love the weather, and love the privacy and space I get to feel without paying an arm and a leg. The conservatism and political stuff though matter more to some people. I miss the ocean in California too.

COL: SoCal vs. Texas, Texas will always win. No state income tax, market biglaw pay, and really affordable housing prices. I think there was a survey a few years ago that placed Houston and Dallas as the top cities for comparative buying power of biglaw salaries. If you care about owning a decent sized home in the near future or maximizing your take home pay, go Texas.

My honest opinion is if you for sure want to work in SoCal, go to UCLA. They will have better local connections and alumni hiring than either UT and NU. If you are hesitant and are open to east coast or other markets, go to NU. If you think you'd like Texas, go to UT with the understanding if you work hard enough you can probably go back out to CA, but your science degree will be carrying you more than the school.


Edit: Also torn on the question of whether you should take the patent bar before law school. The vast majority of firms will not require it for summer work. I remember some of my friends taking it during 1L or 2L summer. If I remember some firms pay for it and prep? Don't take it after you graduate because you won't have much time between studying for bar and working.

Thanks for the insight. Its good to know Texas is solid for IP. Dallas seems like it would be fun to live. Same with Houston. Too bad I got notified so close to the decision deadline... I would have loved to visit the school and surrounding areas to get a feel for the atmosphere.

Financially, Texas makes the most sense. It is the cheapest to attend out of all schools I was accepted into, and the CoL is so nice that I effectively earn more (than if I was in LA). I definitely dont want to work east coast. Family in New England and that area never fit me well. Outside of FL, where I lived for a number of years, I cant see myself working on the east coast. This effectively ends NU . I'm not married to southern california, but the atmosphere, beach, mountains, and friends/family there make it a strong place. Plus, I like the fact that it is very international; Little Tokyo would be frequented quite often.

Do you have any insight to the Dallas or Houston areas? How is the "city life" compared to say... NY/Tokyo/LA? From the few times I have been to Texas, the cities have been super spread out and you would have to drive a ways to get anywhere. Technically this would apply to LA as well with the crazy traffic. How international are the cities? A few of the guys at work from TX hinted to a "good ol boys" feel in Texas.

I hope my questions arent too difficult to answer. I'm struggling getting them written down since there is so much to ask.

[James.K.Polk]

Similar background/employment goals/patent bar prep here.

Two things -

I think you should be able to get more scholarship out of any of these schools; you have better stats than me and I had slightly more. PM me if you want specifics.

Where are these debt numbers coming from? You're including the amount you'll detract from savings? Even with rent covered, Northwestern with 75k in scholarship is going to cost you a good deal more than 115k, unless you're including books/living expenses/food/all see into "rent."

[favabeansoup]

Thanks for the insight. Its good to know Texas is solid for IP. Dallas seems like it would be fun to live. Same with Houston. Too bad I got notified so close to the decision deadline... I would have loved to visit the school and surrounding areas to get a feel for the atmosphere.

Financially, Texas makes the most sense. It is the cheapest to attend out of all schools I was accepted into, and the CoL is so nice that I effectively earn more (than if I was in LA). I definitely dont want to work east coast. Family in New England and that area never fit me well. Outside of FL, where I lived for a number of years, I cant see myself working on the east coast. This effectively ends NU . I'm not married to southern california, but the atmosphere, beach, mountains, and friends/family there make it a strong place. Plus, I like the fact that it is very international; Little Tokyo would be frequented quite often.

Do you have any insight to the Dallas or Houston areas? How is the "city life" compared to say... NY/Tokyo/LA? From the few times I have been to Texas, the cities have been super spread out and you would have to drive a ways to get anywhere. Technically this would apply to LA as well with the crazy traffic. How international are the cities? A few of the guys at work from TX hinted to a "good ol boys" feel in Texas.

I hope my questions arent too difficult to answer. I'm struggling getting them written down since there is so much to ask.

No problem! I'm trying to give you the most honest answers I can. It's pretty important I think for someone to get a full picture before basically committing themselves somewhere.

Quick COL point: The most you'll make in biglaw right now is 160k, which is what you'll make in either LA or Texas. You will take home several thousand more every year in Texas just due to no state income taxes before you even get to lower rents/home prices, etc.

I'm more familiar with Dallas than houston, but both are pretty spread out similar to LA. Car is a necessity. Traffic can be bad, but honestly I've sat in LA traffic and that's way worse. If you are young in Dallas you'll live close to downtown or in Uptown, so you actually won't have that many reasons to drive far for things to do.

Texas environment: SoCal wins 10 times out of 10. You can drive from the beach to the mountains in a day, and I am so jealous of that. Which is also why it can be prohibitively expensive I guess. There's "hill country" in Texas which is actually quite beautiful, but you won't be driving to go on a hike or spend time at the beach anytime soon. Houston does have the ocean, and has a beach maybe? I've never been to a beach there so can't give a good opinion on it. What I do know is that it gets humid as hell there during the summer.

Sidenote: Austin has a beautiful lake with running trails, and an extensive greenbelt for hiking trails. I miss it too. Dallas has a greenbelt but I don't think it's as nice.

"City Life" in Dallas is just not going to be as fun as NY/Tokyo/LA. It's more of a "work" city where a lot of people put in their time in the office then go home to their families/dogs/etc instead of staying out to go to bars and nightlife. This is definitely changing now with a lot of new areas like Uptown or Deep Ellum booming. Every year there are more new bars, food trucks, restaurants, art galleries, unique stores, etc. If you want to live like a complete hipster, there's a place for you here too now. But, I wouldn't say it is up to par with NY or LA with the number of options available to you. Maybe in time it will be, but not yet.

Sidenote: I actually like that it's not as crazy. The times where I do want to go out to a new food truck/bar/restaurant, I rarely have to wait in lines and be surrounded by 1000 other people trying the best "new" thing they saw on instagram.

I would say that Dallas and Houston are pretty international. I know (for Dallas) if you include going out Richardson, Carrollton and Garland you can find Korean/Chinese/Indian/Vietnamese communities. We obviously have a large percentage of Latinos with our proximity to the border so we have a Little Mexico (better like Tex-Mex and tacos, it's a staple of a Texas diet). With that said, it is just a fact of life that Texas is not as culturally diverse as LA or NY. Those cities have LARGE immigrant communities and a lengthy history of being first stops for any immigrant entering the country. Dallas, while having many Japanese restaurants, does not have anything like a Little Tokyo (unfortunately).

As far as the "good ol boys" mentality, pretty much a thing of the past. You can find that in smaller Texas towns sure, but definitely not in the bigger cities. I've lived in Texas now for 6 years and never felt anything like that. I would say that the average person in Texas is friendlier than anywhere else I've lived.

Long story short: It depends. I think Texas is great for me, but I understand it may not be for everyone. If you care more about being culturally diverse and international atmosphere, go to LA. If you like spending most of your quality time in your beautiful, spacious and affordable apartment/home, I would push Texas. If you care more about spending your weekends doing outdoor activities like hiking/beach, probably go LA.

All this is just a LA vs Texas comparison though. With IP work you could very well go to UT, live in Austin for 3 years, then go to LA or wherever after graduation. Choosing this shit is hard.

[trmckenz]

Do you have any insight to the Dallas or Houston areas? How is the "city life" compared to say... NY/Tokyo/LA? From the few times I have been to Texas, the cities have been super spread out and you would have to drive a ways to get anywhere. Technically this would apply to LA as well with the crazy traffic. How international are the cities? A few of the guys at work from TX hinted to a "good ol boys" feel in Texas.

I agree with everything said above by favabeansoup ^^

As I hinted earlier, I work in Dallas IP BigLaw. I moved here from the East Coast. In terms of work culture, Dallas is far friendlier and more social than the East Coast. Most conversations include an obligatory "how are you?" In Dallas, there is more respect for a work-life balance than the East Coast. Some might call this a more 'laid back' feel, which I would agree with, but this 'laid back' feel doesn't necessarily equate to people billing fewer hours. Everyone in my office works hard, and in fact, my office is consistently one of the top two most profitable offices in my firm's North American region (lower overhead might contribute to this too). People in Texas are proud and optimistic.

As a city, Dallas does not compare to NY/Tokyo. It is much more similar to LA in that it is a driving city that is very spread out, but LA has so much more to do, particularly with respect to cultural offerings (e.g., unique neighborhoods, outdoor activities, entertainment industry, etc.). Dallas is a great place to do the BigLaw grind and have a balanced life with a focus on a healthy family. Dallas seriously lacks a vibrant city/urban life (save for a few small pockets like Uptown and Deep Ellum). I'm always shocked to see how few people walk around outside in the city here, and I live in the most happening part of town. Often times you'll find Dallas rather sterile - new and nice, but without character. You've gotta dig around to find unique things (e.g., local breweries, boutique shops, etc.), but they do exist, and they are good.

Dallas is quite international - people from all over live here because of the great job opportunities and low COL. Regardless of your background, you won't feel out of place here. You will be treated just as well as the next person. That being said, there can be a snooty feel in parts of Dallas, though I'd argue that that's more of a southern thing than a Texan thing. As a whole, the Texan culture is relatively inclusive, and if you can handle BigLaw, you can handle Dallas with ease.

[herecomesthesun]

Thanks for the insight. Its good to know Texas is solid for IP. Dallas seems like it would be fun to live. Same with Houston. Too bad I got notified so close to the decision deadline... I would have loved to visit the school and surrounding areas to get a feel for the atmosphere.

Financially, Texas makes the most sense. It is the cheapest to attend out of all schools I was accepted into, and the CoL is so nice that I effectively earn more (than if I was in LA). I definitely dont want to work east coast. Family in New England and that area never fit me well. Outside of FL, where I lived for a number of years, I cant see myself working on the east coast. This effectively ends NU . I'm not married to southern california, but the atmosphere, beach, mountains, and friends/family there make it a strong place. Plus, I like the fact that it is very international; Little Tokyo would be frequented quite often.

Do you have any insight to the Dallas or Houston areas? How is the "city life" compared to say... NY/Tokyo/LA? From the few times I have been to Texas, the cities have been super spread out and you would have to drive a ways to get anywhere. Technically this would apply to LA as well with the crazy traffic. How international are the cities? A few of the guys at work from TX hinted to a "good ol boys" feel in Texas.

I hope my questions arent too difficult to answer. I'm struggling getting them written down since there is so much to ask.

No problem! I'm trying to give you the most honest answers I can. It's pretty important I think for someone to get a full picture before basically committing themselves somewhere.

Quick COL point: The most you'll make in biglaw right now is 160k, which is what you'll make in either LA or Texas. You will take home several thousand more every year in Texas just due to no state income taxes before you even get to lower rents/home prices, etc.

I'm more familiar with Dallas than houston, but both are pretty spread out similar to LA. Car is a necessity. Traffic can be bad, but honestly I've sat in LA traffic and that's way worse. If you are young in Dallas you'll live close to downtown or in Uptown, so you actually won't have that many reasons to drive far for things to do.

Texas environment: SoCal wins 10 times out of 10. You can drive from the beach to the mountains in a day, and I am so jealous of that. Which is also why it can be prohibitively expensive I guess. There's "hill country" in Texas which is actually quite beautiful, but you won't be driving to go on a hike or spend time at the beach anytime soon. Houston does have the ocean, and has a beach maybe? I've never been to a beach there so can't give a good opinion on it. What I do know is that it gets humid as hell there during the summer.

Sidenote: Austin has a beautiful lake with running trails, and an extensive greenbelt for hiking trails. I miss it too. Dallas has a greenbelt but I don't think it's as nice.

"City Life" in Dallas is just not going to be as fun as NY/Tokyo/LA. It's more of a "work" city where a lot of people put in their time in the office then go home to their families/dogs/etc instead of staying out to go to bars and nightlife. This is definitely changing now with a lot of new areas like Uptown or Deep Ellum booming. Every year there are more new bars, food trucks, restaurants, art galleries, unique stores, etc. If you want to live like a complete hipster, there's a place for you here too now. But, I wouldn't say it is up to par with NY or LA with the number of options available to you. Maybe in time it will be, but not yet.

Sidenote: I actually like that it's not as crazy. The times where I do want to go out to a new food truck/bar/restaurant, I rarely have to wait in lines and be surrounded by 1000 other people trying the best "new" thing they saw on instagram.

I would say that Dallas and Houston are pretty international. I know (for Dallas) if you include going out Richardson, Carrollton and Garland you can find Korean/Chinese/Indian/Vietnamese communities. We obviously have a large percentage of Latinos with our proximity to the border so we have a Little Mexico (better like Tex-Mex and tacos, it's a staple of a Texas diet). With that said, it is just a fact of life that Texas is not as culturally diverse as LA or NY. Those cities have LARGE immigrant communities and a lengthy history of being first stops for any immigrant entering the country. Dallas, while having many Japanese restaurants, does not have anything like a Little Tokyo (unfortunately).

As far as the "good ol boys" mentality, pretty much a thing of the past. You can find that in smaller Texas towns sure, but definitely not in the bigger cities. I've lived in Texas now for 6 years and never felt anything like that. I would say that the average person in Texas is friendlier than anywhere else I've lived.

Long story short: It depends. I think Texas is great for me, but I understand it may not be for everyone. If you care more about being culturally diverse and international atmosphere, go to LA. If you like spending most of your quality time in your beautiful, spacious and affordable apartment/home, I would push Texas. If you care more about spending your weekends doing outdoor activities like hiking/beach, probably go LA.

All this is just a LA vs Texas comparison though. With IP work you could very well go to UT, live in Austin for 3 years, then go to LA or wherever after graduation. Choosing this shit is hard.

I completely agree with almost all of the assessments about TX. I grew up in Austin and I've lived in Dallas for nearly 4 years now. However, not knowing if OP (or anyone here) is male/female, I will say that the good ol' boy mentality is not a thing of the past entirely. It's getting better, but in politics (and Dallas more than Austin) it is still very much a good ol' boys' club.

[87mm]

Similar background/employment goals/patent bar prep here.

Two things -

I think you should be able to get more scholarship out of any of these schools; you have better stats than me and I had slightly more. PM me if you want specifics.

Where are these debt numbers coming from? You're including the amount you'll detract from savings? Even with rent covered, Northwestern with 75k in scholarship is going to cost you a good deal more than 115k, unless you're including books/living expenses/food/all see into "rent."

Debt numbers werent 100% accurate initially, but they covered total CoA. It is lower than my scholarship $$ would let on because I have decent savings and some CoL assistance from an eager parent. My plan is to pay them back, but they (currently) insist that I dont -_-.


I checked out your profile, if your LSN is correct then your stats rock over mine. I've gone back to UCLA for another round and hopefully something improves but it isn't looking good.

Thanks for the insight. Its good to know Texas is solid for IP. Dallas seems like it would be fun to live. Same with Houston. Too bad I got notified so close to the decision deadline... I would have loved to visit the school and surrounding areas to get a feel for the atmosphere.

Financially, Texas makes the most sense. It is the cheapest to attend out of all schools I was accepted into, and the CoL is so nice that I effectively earn more (than if I was in LA). I definitely dont want to work east coast. Family in New England and that area never fit me well. Outside of FL, where I lived for a number of years, I cant see myself working on the east coast. This effectively ends NU . I'm not married to southern california, but the atmosphere, beach, mountains, and friends/family there make it a strong place. Plus, I like the fact that it is very international; Little Tokyo would be frequented quite often.

Do you have any insight to the Dallas or Houston areas? How is the "city life" compared to say... NY/Tokyo/LA? From the few times I have been to Texas, the cities have been super spread out and you would have to drive a ways to get anywhere. Technically this would apply to LA as well with the crazy traffic. How international are the cities? A few of the guys at work from TX hinted to a "good ol boys" feel in Texas.

I hope my questions arent too difficult to answer. I'm struggling getting them written down since there is so much to ask.

No problem! I'm trying to give you the most honest answers I can. It's pretty important I think for someone to get a full picture before basically committing themselves somewhere.

Quick COL point: The most you'll make in biglaw right now is 160k, which is what you'll make in either LA or Texas. You will take home several thousand more every year in Texas just due to no state income taxes before you even get to lower rents/home prices, etc.

I'm more familiar with Dallas than houston, but both are pretty spread out similar to LA. Car is a necessity. Traffic can be bad, but honestly I've sat in LA traffic and that's way worse. If you are young in Dallas you'll live close to downtown or in Uptown, so you actually won't have that many reasons to drive far for things to do.

Texas environment: SoCal wins 10 times out of 10. You can drive from the beach to the mountains in a day, and I am so jealous of that. Which is also why it can be prohibitively expensive I guess. There's "hill country" in Texas which is actually quite beautiful, but you won't be driving to go on a hike or spend time at the beach anytime soon. Houston does have the ocean, and has a beach maybe? I've never been to a beach there so can't give a good opinion on it. What I do know is that it gets humid as hell there during the summer.

Sidenote: Austin has a beautiful lake with running trails, and an extensive greenbelt for hiking trails. I miss it too. Dallas has a greenbelt but I don't think it's as nice.

"City Life" in Dallas is just not going to be as fun as NY/Tokyo/LA. It's more of a "work" city where a lot of people put in their time in the office then go home to their families/dogs/etc instead of staying out to go to bars and nightlife. This is definitely changing now with a lot of new areas like Uptown or Deep Ellum booming. Every year there are more new bars, food trucks, restaurants, art galleries, unique stores, etc. If you want to live like a complete hipster, there's a place for you here too now. But, I wouldn't say it is up to par with NY or LA with the number of options available to you. Maybe in time it will be, but not yet.

Sidenote: I actually like that it's not as crazy. The times where I do want to go out to a new food truck/bar/restaurant, I rarely have to wait in lines and be surrounded by 1000 other people trying the best "new" thing they saw on instagram.

I would say that Dallas and Houston are pretty international. I know (for Dallas) if you include going out Richardson, Carrollton and Garland you can find Korean/Chinese/Indian/Vietnamese communities. We obviously have a large percentage of Latinos with our proximity to the border so we have a Little Mexico (better like Tex-Mex and tacos, it's a staple of a Texas diet). With that said, it is just a fact of life that Texas is not as culturally diverse as LA or NY. Those cities have LARGE immigrant communities and a lengthy history of being first stops for any immigrant entering the country. Dallas, while having many Japanese restaurants, does not have anything like a Little Tokyo (unfortunately).

As far as the "good ol boys" mentality, pretty much a thing of the past. You can find that in smaller Texas towns sure, but definitely not in the bigger cities. I've lived in Texas now for 6 years and never felt anything like that. I would say that the average person in Texas is friendlier than anywhere else I've lived.

Long story short: It depends. I think Texas is great for me, but I understand it may not be for everyone. If you care more about being culturally diverse and international atmosphere, go to LA. If you like spending most of your quality time in your beautiful, spacious and affordable apartment/home, I would push Texas. If you care more about spending your weekends doing outdoor activities like hiking/beach, probably go LA.

All this is just a LA vs Texas comparison though. With IP work you could very well go to UT, live in Austin for 3 years, then go to LA or wherever after graduation. Choosing this shit is hard.

I completely agree with almost all of the assessments about TX. I grew up in Austin and I've lived in Dallas for nearly 4 years now. However, not knowing if OP (or anyone here) is male/female, I will say that the good ol' boy mentality is not a thing of the past entirely. It's getting better, but in politics (and Dallas more than Austin) it is still very much a good ol' boys' club.

Texas sounds pretty nice. I am male and definitely dont mind a good ol boy mentality. Anyone have any insight into the dating scene in TX? Living in the south and midwest, the dating environment is like night and day.

Why did I have to get this decision so close to the enrollment deadline! I have 2-3 days to make a decision and I am still torn.

[favabeansoup]

Texas sounds pretty nice. I am male and definitely dont mind a good ol boy mentality. Anyone have any insight into the dating scene in TX? Living in the south and midwest, the dating environment is like night and day.

Why did I have to get this decision so close to the enrollment deadline! I have 2-3 days to make a decision and I am still torn.

Not a serious answer at all since I've been married for most of the time I've been here, but I always have lol'd at the stories of $30k millionaires in Dallas. http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/30-0 ... st-6421843. This is what I always think of when I hear about dating in Dallas. *Note joke answer, definitely not what dating is actually like here.

I should revise my earlier "good ol boys" comment that you don't see it a lot. That was just my perspective but definitely can be different for other people.