NYU vs Michigan vs Vandy Forum

[Generally]

Ok being as deposit deadlines are nearing, I think this is pretty much my final choices.

Goals - Would love to do international law type work. For that geography isn't really too important, I'd go where the job was. If not that though I would really love to come back to the South for biglaw. Primarily Atlanta, perhaps Nashville, Texas, or even DC. Don't want to end up in NYC biglaw, but if it was between that and no biglaw I would do NYC. Wife is from UK, so open to London if that ever becomes a possibility.

NYU - COA: ~$220,900
This is top choice if money were not a concern. My wife's career would be best situated if we stayed in Nashville, but NYC is probably the only other place where she could have similiar opportunities. WE love big cities and love the idea of living in NYC for three years, but that is coming from someone who has not yet even been there. I also love NYU's employment numbers, and I am pretty confident I would atleast be able to land some type of biglaw from there.

Michigan - COA: ~$123,500
Because of money I am leaning heavy towards Michigan. My concerns are my wife's career has no opportunities really in Ann Arbor, and I feel like we would get bored living there. Also hate the cold. Also huge is their employment numbers give me pause. I like the idea of being in less debt, but I would rather have more debt and the job I want that can actually service debt.

Vandy - COA: ~$128,290
We live in Nashville now, so geographically this is the best call. My wife already has a good job that could really help with expenses. We already have a place to stay, social circle, and we love it here. On the other hand I am not at all confident Vandy can get me to where I want to be careerwise. It's good that the firms I would actually want to work at go to oci, but I'm not convinced that is a big advantage over the placement power of t14s.

UVA gave me $0 so I withdrew. Duke waitlisted me. I know those would be good for southern biglaw, but they unfortunately are not options. So yea, advice?

[benwyatt]

Retake.

[krads153]

OUt of these two, it would have to be Michigan or Vandy.

That amount for NYU is unconscionable. Also NYC is unlike any other "city" in the US - it's the only legitimately big city IMO in the entire US. It's nothing like Nashville (which feels more like a suburban town). If you like Nashville, you likely may not like NYC. I suggest you visit here before saying you would like to live in it for awhile....

[Generally]

OUt of these two, it would have to be Michigan or Vandy.

That amount for NYU is unconscionable. Also NYC is unlike any other "city" in the US - it's the only legitimately big city IMO in the entire US. It's nothing like Nashville (which feels more like a suburban town). If you like Nashville, you likely may not like NYC. I suggest you visit here before saying you would like to live in it for awhile....

Visiting next weekend actually, but we both lived in pretty big cities outside of the US before. At what point do you think NYU would be worth it compared to Michigan? I have asked for scholarship reconsideration, so I may get a better offer. Also the total cost for NYU may be less since I didn't consider any of my wife's earnings in any of these estimations.

[Tiago Splitter]

What kind of scholarships do you actually have at these places? I'm trying to think of how the numbers might turn out if we factor in your wife's contributions.

[krads153]

OUt of these two, it would have to be Michigan or Vandy.

That amount for NYU is unconscionable. Also NYC is unlike any other "city" in the US - it's the only legitimately big city IMO in the entire US. It's nothing like Nashville (which feels more like a suburban town). If you like Nashville, you likely may not like NYC. I suggest you visit here before saying you would like to live in it for awhile....

Visiting next weekend actually, but we both lived in pretty big cities outside of the US before. At what point do you think NYU would be worth it compared to Michigan? I have asked for scholarship reconsideration, so I may get a better offer. Also the total cost for NYU may be less since I didn't consider any of my wife's earnings in any of these estimations.

I probably wouldn't pay (max) more than 150k for any law school, including Yale, after interest. In the ideal world, I'd keep debt to 100k or less and be sure that I wanted to practice law (not just go to law school).

This is personal though and keep in mind that I am a bitter biglawyer though who thinks most 0ls are crazy for still wanting to take out huge loans to go into biglaw. I've also paid all of my loans back though (a shit ton) and would never do the same thing again. It is much, much, much harder than it looks as a 0L to grind and pay down huge loans.

[Generally]

What kind of scholarships do you actually have at these places? I'm trying to think of how the numbers might turn out if we factor in your wife's contributions.

75k from NYU and 120k from Michigan. Will be tough for my wife to find decent employment in Ann Arbor.

[Tiago Splitter]

What kind of scholarships do you actually have at these places? I'm trying to think of how the numbers might turn out if we factor in your wife's contributions.

75k from NYU and 120k from Michigan. Will be tough for my wife to find decent employment in Ann Arbor.

75k and still looking at 220k debt. Jesus.

I will say that jobs other than first year biglaw associate tend to pay much better in NYC than they do in other places. If your wife can make enough to significantly minimize your portion of COL I don't think NYU is that bad because you're only looking at around 115k in tuition.

[Generally]

What kind of scholarships do you actually have at these places? I'm trying to think of how the numbers might turn out if we factor in your wife's contributions.

75k from NYU and 120k from Michigan. Will be tough for my wife to find decent employment in Ann Arbor.

75k and still looking at 220k debt. Jesus.

I will say that jobs other than first year biglaw associate tend to pay much better in NYC than they do in other places. If your wife can make enough to significantly minimize your portion of COL I don't think NYU is that bad because you're only looking at around 115k in tuition.

Yea NYC cost of living is I think $7k more a year than Ann Arbor, plus tuition is already more at NYU than Mich :/ I really hope it wouldn't actually be 220k after my wife's income, but I didn't want to underestimate. Figure it is safer to expect the worst.

[cavalier1138]

What kind of scholarships do you actually have at these places? I'm trying to think of how the numbers might turn out if we factor in your wife's contributions.

75k from NYU and 120k from Michigan. Will be tough for my wife to find decent employment in Ann Arbor.

75k and still looking at 220k debt. Jesus.

I will say that jobs other than first year biglaw associate tend to pay much better in NYC than they do in other places. If your wife can make enough to significantly minimize your portion of COL I don't think NYU is that bad because you're only looking at around 115k in tuition.

Yea NYC cost of living is I think $7k more a year than Ann Arbor, plus tuition is already more at NYU than Mich :/ I really hope it wouldn't actually be 220k after my wife's income, but I didn't want to underestimate. Figure it is safer to expect the worst.

You might not want to be quite so pessimistic. NYU's total COA for each year is $85k (which probably increases a bit each year), so that puts your cost at around $180k. It sounds like you'd be doing firm jobs over the summers, so anticipate earning $60k+ from those. In general, I'd say that you can probably breathe a little easier about exactly how much debt you'd be leaving with, even without your wife helping to defray living expenses.

[Tiago Splitter]

You might not want to be quite so pessimistic. NYU's total COA for each year is $85k (which probably increases a bit each year), so that puts your cost at around $180k. It sounds like you'd be doing firm jobs over the summers, so anticipate earning $60k+ from those. In general, I'd say that you can probably breathe a little easier about exactly how much debt you'd be leaving with, even without your wife helping to defray living expenses.

I don't see any reason to expect this guy to just waltz into a firm job 1L summer. Taxes will also take a healthy bite out of whatever summer income he does make. Plus that budget only accounts for nine months of living expenses.

[stretchedtoothin]

That's a very good price for Michigan, and a 2L summer gig will probably lower the cost. That's where you should be going, especially if the employment statistics are rosier this year. Not a bad outcome IMO

[Tls2016]

What kind of scholarships do you actually have at these places? I'm trying to think of how the numbers might turn out if we factor in your wife's contributions.

75k from NYU and 120k from Michigan. Will be tough for my wife to find decent employment in Ann Arbor.

75k and still looking at 220k debt. Jesus.

I will say that jobs other than first year biglaw associate tend to pay much better in NYC than they do in other places. If your wife can make enough to significantly minimize your portion of COL I don't think NYU is that bad because you're only looking at around 115k in tuition.

Yea NYC cost of living is I think $7k more a year than Ann Arbor, plus tuition is already more at NYU than Mich :/ I really hope it wouldn't actually be 220k after my wife's income, but I didn't want to underestimate. Figure it is safer to expect the worst.

You might not want to be quite so pessimistic. NYU's total COA for each year is $85k (which probably increases a bit each year), so that puts your cost at around $180k. It sounds like you'd be doing firm jobs over the summers, so anticipate earning $60k+ from those. In general, I'd say that you can probably breathe a little easier about exactly how much debt you'd be leaving with, even without your wife helping to defray living expenses.

How is a 1L from NYU making $30,000 as an SA?
You also need to include COL in NYC is his wife has a job and they stay in the city over the city.
If OP wants to live and work in the South, he needs to look carefully at those insular markets. He may need to do 1L SA and 2L SA in the market he wants to even hope to get a job there.
Also nervous about OP and wife moving to NYC without ever being here
What is wrong with OP staying at Vanderbilt? If OP doesn't want NYC biglaw he should be maximizing his other market.

[cavalier1138]

What kind of scholarships do you actually have at these places? I'm trying to think of how the numbers might turn out if we factor in your wife's contributions.

75k from NYU and 120k from Michigan. Will be tough for my wife to find decent employment in Ann Arbor.

75k and still looking at 220k debt. Jesus.

I will say that jobs other than first year biglaw associate tend to pay much better in NYC than they do in other places. If your wife can make enough to significantly minimize your portion of COL I don't think NYU is that bad because you're only looking at around 115k in tuition.

Yea NYC cost of living is I think $7k more a year than Ann Arbor, plus tuition is already more at NYU than Mich :/ I really hope it wouldn't actually be 220k after my wife's income, but I didn't want to underestimate. Figure it is safer to expect the worst.

You might not want to be quite so pessimistic. NYU's total COA for each year is $85k (which probably increases a bit each year), so that puts your cost at around $180k. It sounds like you'd be doing firm jobs over the summers, so anticipate earning $60k+ from those. In general, I'd say that you can probably breathe a little easier about exactly how much debt you'd be leaving with, even without your wife helping to defray living expenses.

How is a 1L from NYU making $30,000 as an SA?
You also need to include COL in NYC is his wife has a job and they stay in the city over the city.
If OP wants to live and work in the South, he needs to look carefully at those insular markets. He may need to do 1L SA and 2L SA in the market he wants to even hope to get a job there.
Also nervous about OP and wife moving to NYC without ever being here
What is wrong with OP staying at Vanderbilt? If OP doesn't want NYC biglaw he should be maximizing his other market.

I don't think there's anything wrong with going to Vanderbilt. The estimated costs for NYU just seemed exceptionally high, especially if you play your housing cards right and live somewhere semi-affordable.

[Generally]

What is wrong with OP staying at Vanderbilt? If OP doesn't want NYC biglaw he should be maximizing his other market.

My issue with Vanderbilt is whist it may give me a better shot at an insular southern city like Nashville, I feel like it gives me a much lower chance at biglaw in general. Only around 30something% of Vandy was doing big law vs like 70% at NYU, and as I said, I would rather do biglaw in NYC than not get big law and have to work shitlaw in the South. I feel like a ~70k salary with the vandy loans would be as bad or worse than 160k with NYU loans.

[Tls2016]

What is wrong with OP staying at Vanderbilt? If OP doesn't want NYC biglaw he should be maximizing his other market.

My issue with Vanderbilt is whist it may give me a better shot at an insular southern city like Nashville, I feel like it gives me a much lower chance at biglaw in general. Only around 30something% of Vandy was doing big law vs like 70% at NYU, and as I said, I would rather do biglaw in NYC than not get big law and have to work shitlaw in the South. I feel like a ~70k salary with the vandy loans would be as bad or worse than 160k with NYU loans.

How much is 70k after taxes in Nashville?
160k is around $96,000 in NYC.

[20171203]

.

[Generally]

Would your wife contribute to COL if she remains employed?

yes, it's just hard for me to know if it would be enough to offset the need for loans though. We have monthly bills and all that. We definitely couldn't live on only her income as we live right now, but I guess we would cut things back in law school and sell our car if we did NYU.

[Generally]

What is wrong with OP staying at Vanderbilt? If OP doesn't want NYC biglaw he should be maximizing his other market.

My issue with Vanderbilt is whist it may give me a better shot at an insular southern city like Nashville, I feel like it gives me a much lower chance at biglaw in general. Only around 30something% of Vandy was doing big law vs like 70% at NYU, and as I said, I would rather do biglaw in NYC than not get big law and have to work shitlaw in the South. I feel like a ~70k salary with the vandy loans would be as bad or worse than 160k with NYU loans.

How much is 70k after taxes in Nashville?
160k is around $96,000 in NYC.

Fair enough. I think the best outcome would be ~$140k in Atlanta or Texas. Do have ties to Atlanta.

[GFox345]

What kind of scholarships do you actually have at these places? I'm trying to think of how the numbers might turn out if we factor in your wife's contributions.

75k from NYU and 120k from Michigan. Will be tough for my wife to find decent employment in Ann Arbor.

75k and still looking at 220k debt. Jesus.

I will say that jobs other than first year biglaw associate tend to pay much better in NYC than they do in other places. If your wife can make enough to significantly minimize your portion of COL I don't think NYU is that bad because you're only looking at around 115k in tuition.

Yea NYC cost of living is I think $7k more a year than Ann Arbor, plus tuition is already more at NYU than Mich :/ I really hope it wouldn't actually be 220k after my wife's income, but I didn't want to underestimate. Figure it is safer to expect the worst.

You might not want to be quite so pessimistic. NYU's total COA for each year is $85k (which probably increases a bit each year), so that puts your cost at around $180k. It sounds like you'd be doing firm jobs over the summers, so anticipate earning $60k+ from those. In general, I'd say that you can probably breathe a little easier about exactly how much debt you'd be leaving with, even without your wife helping to defray living expenses.

This is COMPLETELY incorrect. The COA for NYU last year was $85,964. Plugging this into the GTown Debt calculator with a 25k/year scholarship comes out to nearly 229k, and this, again, only factors in 9 months out of the year. Even if the OP does manage to lock down an SA after both 1L and 2L, I would say he is looking at 200k debt as an absolute minimum even if he pays all of what he earns after living expenses toward his debt.

Michigan (at 131k) according to the GTown Calculator is clearly the best option for the OP as an investment. NYU is by no means worth 100k more than Michigan. An argument could be made for Vandy given the OP's circumstances with his wife, but it does greatly hinder his Biglaw Chances, and Ann Arbor is considerably smaller than either Nashville or NYC. However, Ann Arbor is only 40 minutes away from Detroit, which is a much bigger market. Maybe you could find a place to live in between AA and Detroit and both have a 20 minute commute? Just a thought. Good luck OP, and for what it's worth, you really should be happy with these outcomes. They are great! You would be going to Michigan for less than I am!

[fliptrip]

NYU is not a losing proposition for you here and if you have international aspirations, it seems like the place. I got a higher COA figure for you to NYU, of $240k, but maybe you factored in some things that I am not aware of.

Anyway, to owe that much at repayment means you're on the hook for $2,762/month, which means that to service your debt, you realistically won't be able to make any less than $130k/year, so it's gotta be biglaw + typical biglaw exit for you. You have a great chance of attaining that from NYU, so that would be my vote.

I know you know that you should anticipate BigLaw being a horrific experience. Have you had experience enduring through something truly awful for an extended period in the past?

E: (for Fox) You cannot just look at the cost side of the investment, you also have to look at the payoffs side. NYU pays off significantly better than Michigan, thus justifying a higher outlay for it. Actually, by my math, the payoffs are roughly equivalent between NYU @ $75k off and Michigan at $120k off.

[existentialcrisis]

Out of these options, I vote Michigan, it seems like with strong ATL ties, you should probably be able to get back, and I'm pretty sure NY firms have much lower grade cutoffs for Mich than for Vandy, if NYC big law is going to be your backup option. I would've tried hard to take that Michigan scholarship and used it to negotiate with UVA though.

NYU isn't worth that much.

The whole wife's employment options thing really does make this tough though.

[Tls2016]

NYU is not a losing proposition for you here and if you have international aspirations, it seems like the place. I got a higher COA figure for you to NYU, of $240k, but maybe you factored in some things that I am not aware of.

Anyway, to owe that much at repayment means you're on the hook for $2,762/month, which means that to service your debt, you realistically won't be able to make any less than $130k/year, so it's gotta be biglaw + typical biglaw exit for you. You have a great chance of attaining that from NYU, so that would be my vote.

I know you know that you should anticipate BigLaw being a horrific experience. Have you had experience enduring through something truly awful for an extended period in the past?

E: (for Fox) You cannot just look at the cost side of the investment, you also have to look at the payoffs side. NYU pays off significantly better than NYU, thus justifying a higher outlay for it. Actually, by my math, the payoffs are roughly equivalent between NYU @ $75k off and Michigan at $120k off.

NYU doesn't pay off better if you owe more and have to try to spend more years in biglaw. I think you are over simplifying the cost and benefit.

Edit to add: Again OP you need to understand the hiring in markets in the South. It seems to me that it differs from hiring in NYC and Chicago. My understanding is that you have to do 1L SA at the firm if you hope to get a job.

[fliptrip]

^^^Owe more, yes, but less chance of missing altogether, which is valuable. I think they are equivalent at these figures, and OP made it clear his goal is to work in biglaw. That's why I asked him if he had ever suffered for an extended period of time in something without quitting.

[Tls2016]

^^^Owe more, yes, but less chance of missing altogether, which is valuable. I think they are equivalent at these figures, and OP made it clear his goal is to work in biglaw. That's why I asked him if he had ever suffered for an extended period of time in something without quitting.

It isn't just without quitting. OP needs to be able to do a decent job. He shouldn't plan on needing more than 2 years in biglaw.

OP is basically locking himself into NYC biglaw if he goes to NYU if he can't get into the insular and grade competitive southern markets.

I'm not sure OP understands what that means in terms of living in NYC.