Michigan ($$$) v. Cornell ($$$$) v. Duke for PI Forum

[chrisharrison]

Michigan COA: 90k
Cornell COA: 60k
Duke COA: 120k

I'm financing through loans entirely. I've negotiated the scholarships from these schools as much as I could.

Goals: I'm fine with working anywhere on the East Coast. I have ties in the South but am not hellbent on staying. I am pretty debt averse- I want to work in public interest and have no real interest in big law. So my chief concerns are where can I get the best deal and where will I have public interest support. I have some concerns about PI coming out of Cornell. I have visited Cornell and Duke but haven't gotten the chance to visit Michigan so any insight on Ann Arbor v. Durham/Ithaca is appreciated.

Stats: 169 (2 takes, will not take again) 3.7x

[zozo1717]

Michigan COA: 90k
Cornell COA: 60k
Duke COA: 120k

I'm financing through loans entirely. I've negotiated the scholarships from these schools as much as I could.

Goals: I'm fine with working anywhere on the East Coast. I have ties in the South but am not hellbent on staying. I am pretty debt averse- I want to work in public interest and have no real interest in big law. So my chief concerns are where can I get the best deal and where will I have public interest support. I have some concerns about PI coming out of Cornell. I have visited Cornell and Duke but haven't gotten the chance to visit Michigan so any insight on Ann Arbor v. Durham/Ithaca is appreciated.

Stats: 169 (2 takes, will not take again) 3.7x

Having lived/visited all three places mentioned - here are my thoughts:

Ithaca: Small college town, middle of nowhere (Syracuse is ~hour and really that's not that big of a city). Beautiful location though, lots of outdoorsy stuff to do, town is hippie and cute.

Ann Arbor: College town on a slightly bigger scale (U of M is bigger than Cornell), closer to a major metro area (Detroit) - convenience of a legit airport is a plus if you're counting on flying home, etc.

Durham: Not much of a "college town" per se; the city itself has changed a ton and there are all sorts of restaurants, music, cultural events etc. things going on. Nearby Chapel Hill and Raleigh are also close by with more offerings too.

None of the three will give you a "big city" feel, but I would say Ithaca will definitely feel the most isolated. I won't pretend to know too much about the PI placement at any of these places - I'm sure someone else will chime in . Based on pure COA I would say Michigan or Cornell, but make sure to compare LRAP programs if that's the direction you're headed. Feel free to PM if you want more details on any of these areas.

[lymenheimer]

You either got very fortunate with scholarships, or you are severely underestimating your costs.

[chrisharrison]

You either got very fortunate with scholarships, or you are severely underestimating your costs.

I was fortunate, also now that I'm doing the math it is a bit underestimated, I'll edit it to Cornell COA at 70 K and Michigan at ~100~

[chrisharrison]

Michigan COA: 100k
Cornell COA: 70k
Duke COA: 120k

I'm financing through loans entirely. I've negotiated the scholarships from these schools as much as I could.

Goals: I'm fine with working anywhere on the East Coast. I have ties in the South but am not hellbent on staying. I am pretty debt averse- I want to work in public interest and have no real interest in big law. So my chief concerns are where can I get the best deal and where will I have public interest support. I have some concerns about PI coming out of Cornell. I have visited Cornell and Duke but haven't gotten the chance to visit Michigan so any insight on Ann Arbor v. Durham/Ithaca is appreciated.

Stats: 169 (2 takes, will not take again) 3.7x

ETA: redid math on costs to fit cost of living and interest accrued during school

[lymenheimer]

Not to be too incredulous, but you got a ~150k scholarship from Duke with a 169/3.8?

[chrisharrison]

Not to be too incredulous, but you got a ~150k scholarship from Duke with a 169/3.8?

Sorry sorry. I'm doing this website wrong. I didn't adjust the duke number. The math on that one was so scary I'm forgetting all about it.

[fliptrip]

I'll do this for you. What are your scholarship totals and do you have any resources going into this that aren't loans? Savings, parent support, etc.?

[chrisharrison]

I'll do this for you. What are your scholarship totals and do you have any resources going into this that aren't loans? Savings, parent support, etc.?

PMing you!!!

[lymenheimer]

Not to be too incredulous, but you got a ~150k scholarship from Duke with a 169/3.8?

Sorry sorry. I'm doing this website wrong. I didn't adjust the duke number. The math on that one was so scary I'm forgetting all about it.

haha. np. It just changes the advice quite a bit (and can cause dissension among the ranks re: lower scholarship offers to similar profiles).

[fliptrip]

Here's OP's COA figures:

Cornell: $85k
Michigan: $112k

I think in general, OP, I think you should go to the place that maximizes your employment odds for PI. I'm thinking that's Michigan.

[chrisharrison]

Here's OP's COA figures:

Cornell: $85k
Michigan: $112k

I think in general, OP, I think you should go to the place that maximizes your employment odds for PI. I'm thinking that's Michigan.

Thank you for doing that!

I tend to agree about Michigan. Do you think the odds are worth 30ish k?

[fliptrip]

I think PI focused people are difficult to think about in terms of money. Basically, I can't quantify the payoffs, so value is hard to approach. Anyway, the optimal solution is to spend as little as possible to get your goals and I like that Michigan is close to a city, so you should have better internship/clinical experiences that should help you in your PI job search. Not sure what specific sort of PI you're looking for though.

[chrisharrison]

I think PI focused people are difficult to think about in terms of money. Basically, I can't quantify the payoffs, so value is hard to approach. Anyway, the optimal solution is to spend as little as possible to get your goals and I like that Michigan is close to a city, so you should have better internship/clinical experiences that should help you in your PI job search. Not sure what specific sort of PI you're looking for though.

Right now my specific goal is indigent defense. I'm working in that right now and really love it. I would do PD with the right opportunities and LRAP. I'd also be interested in doing a clerkship and then defense.

[Serett]

Compare their LRAPs closely. I recall Michigan's being particularly generous as to qualifications and eligibility, but it's been long enough since I've taken a look that you should verify that yourself.

[chrisharrison]

Yeah the Michigan LRAP is pretty generous/allows for any employment. But I'm nervous to bet on LRAP after reading the experiences of others. So I guess it comes to COA vs. opportunities vs. quality of life. Does anyone have any insight into any doors in PI that michigan can open that cornell can't? My goals are pretty realistic-indigent defense, PD or non-profit. Might try for DOJ honors but its not some ~dream~ or deciding factor.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

With any of those COA, you're going to have to rely on a school's LRAP to pay it off anyway.....most PI attorneys make like 50/60k.

[existentialcrisis]

With any of those COA, you're going to have to rely on a school's LRAP to pay it off anyway.....most PI attorneys make like 50/60k.

I'm pretty sure you can pay down 60k worth of debt on that kind of salary, no?

[Tls2016]

Yeah the Michigan LRAP is pretty generous/allows for any employment. But I'm nervous to bet on LRAP after reading the experiences of others. So I guess it comes to COA vs. opportunities vs. quality of life. Does anyone have any insight into any doors in PI that michigan can open that cornell can't? My goals are pretty realistic-indigent defense, PD or non-profit. Might try for DOJ honors but its not some ~dream~ or deciding factor.

I'm going to include my plea that you contact the schools directly and walk through the different scenarios. Someone reported being told that $60,000 of debt fromMichigan was to low to qualify for their LRAP.
I would triple check all the info.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

With any of those COA, you're going to have to rely on a school's LRAP to pay it off anyway.....most PI attorneys make like 50/60k.

I'm pretty sure you can pay down 60k worth of debt on that kind of salary, no?

lol in a city? no.

I would carefully go over all of the LRAP programs like above poster said - that's going to be the most important determination.

[Toodle-loo]

Yeah the Michigan LRAP is pretty generous/allows for any employment. But I'm nervous to bet on LRAP after reading the experiences of others. So I guess it comes to COA vs. opportunities vs. quality of life. Does anyone have any insight into any doors in PI that michigan can open that cornell can't? My goals are pretty realistic-indigent defense, PD or non-profit. Might try for DOJ honors but its not some ~dream~ or deciding factor.

I'm going to include my plea that you contact the schools directly and walk through the different scenarios. Someone reported being told that $60,000 of debt fromMichigan was to low to qualify for their LRAP.
I would triple check all the info.

I talked to the fin aid office about this specifically when I visited. It's not that 60k isn't enough debt to qualify for LRAP, it's that if your debt is so low that your 10-year standard repayment plan payments would be less than your IBR calculation, you don't qualify for LRAP.

So if you make 100k AGI/year (10k-15k/year IBR requirement) but your loans are so low that your 10-year standard repayment would only cost you 7k/year, you don't qualify for LRAP.

[Tls2016]

Yeah the Michigan LRAP is pretty generous/allows for any employment. But I'm nervous to bet on LRAP after reading the experiences of others. So I guess it comes to COA vs. opportunities vs. quality of life. Does anyone have any insight into any doors in PI that michigan can open that cornell can't? My goals are pretty realistic-indigent defense, PD or non-profit. Might try for DOJ honors but its not some ~dream~ or deciding factor.

I'm going to include my plea that you contact the schools directly and walk through the different scenarios. Someone reported being told that $60,000 of debt fromMichigan was to low to qualify for their LRAP.
I would triple check all the info.

I talked to the fin aid office about this specifically when I visited. It's not that 60k isn't enough debt to qualify for LRAP, it's that if your debt is so low that your 10-year standard repayment plan payments would be less than your IBR calculation, you don't qualify for LRAP.

So if you make 100k AGI/year (10k-15k/year IBR requirement) but your loans are so low that your 10-year standard repayment would only cost you 7k/year, you don't qualify for LRAP.

Thanks for clarifying. I think all schools require that your payment be lower on IBR. I don't know how they calculated that when they don't know your income though. If you make almost nothing,what happens? They must be assuming some level of income?

[chrisharrison]

thanks for the advice re: LRAP. I'll be doing some research before deciding

[getemgoon]

Recent graduate of one of the three schools you mentioned. OP, please realize that you will most likely be unemployed if you pursue PI, even at these T14 schools.