Michigan vs. UVA vs. UW Forum

[stig2014]

Hey guys, I hope that I can get you to weigh in on my decision. Used Georgetown calculator for values.

Schools I'm considering: Michigan ($$) COA: $202,000. UVA($) COA ($): $262,000. University of Washington ($$$) COA: $100,000. Financing all through loans.

Goals: If everything went according to plan, I would do a federal clerkship upon graduation--->DC BigLaw litigation. However, I realize how tough this is regardless of where I attend, and am more than comfortable with general NY BL as a starting point. I'm considering UW as well if they renegotiate my scholarship, just because I'm from Seattle and wouldn't mind working here if I could get Seattle BL (doesn't really exist though).
Numbers: 170/3.2. Two times taking the LSAT.

UVA is my dream school, especially considering my goals and personality, but I realize that it's going to be extremely expensive and may not be a good investment. Would I be crazy to take it? Would be great to have you guys weigh in; unfortunately though it seems like it's going to come down to valuing that small extra percentage at clerkship and DC that UVA gives. Also held/priority waitlisted at Georgetown, Cornell, Northwestern, which could change in the future.

[drillteam]

I am a UVA law grad from many years ago but I have been involved with mentoring UVA law students ever since. If your objective is DC or a federal clerkship, then the $60k cost differential with Michigan is worth it. UW likely won't get you to DC or NY biglaw and has a narrow path to federal clerkships. UVA is short of Harvard the best path to DC and as good as any other aside from YHS for federal clerkship. Michigan can get you to NY biglaw and federal clerkships. So for $60k more you optimize your chances at DC and not in a small percentage way.

With your numbers, however, I am surprised Georgetown hasn't come through for you.

[redtalun]

UW: poor chances for big fed and for DC biglaw anything. Seems like a strictly inferior choice to UM at that price point.
There's a decent contingent of UVA/UM alums in the Seattle biglaw market if you really want to stay here, but it sounds like you'd like to keep your options open.

[krads153]

I am a UVA law grad from many years ago but I have been involved with mentoring UVA law students ever since. If your objective is DC or a federal clerkship, then the $60k cost differential with Michigan is worth it. UW likely won't get you to DC or NY biglaw and has a narrow path to federal clerkships. UVA is short of Harvard the best path to DC and as good as any other aside from YHS for federal clerkship. Michigan can get you to NY biglaw and federal clerkships. So for $60k more you optimize your chances at DC and not in a small percentage way.

With your numbers, however, I am surprised Georgetown hasn't come through for you.

Huh? I'm not sure where you are coming up with this info. DC is a tough market to crack and you're likely going to need to be top of the class out of any non-HYS T-14.

I think these debt amounts are too high.

[stig2014]

Seems like UW is off the table then. Just doesn't give me a realistic shot at my goals of BigLaw. Any objective way to determine how much more a Virginia degree is worth than Michigan given my goals? Also, is it safe to reasonably assume that Michigan opens up NY BL as long as I don't fall too far below median? (have two years of corporate work experience, and generally think I'm personable in interviews).

[existentialcrisis]

Seems like UW is off the table then. Just doesn't give me a realistic shot at my goals of BigLaw. Any objective way to determine how much more a Virginia degree is worth than Michigan given my goals? Also, is it safe to reasonably assume that Michigan opens up NY BL as long as I don't fall too far below median? (have two years of corporate work experience, and generally think I'm personable in interviews).

I don't think there is an objective way to determine it, unfortunately. UVA places a lot of grads in DC, but I have to believe that's almost entirely due to self selection. There seem to be some on TLS that that argue UVA has a placement edge in DC, but personally I doubt it.

Theoretically it seems like Michigan should open up NY with ok grades. Its peers in the T14 definitely do that. On the other hand, Mich consistently has the worst placement in the T14 sans GULC and that makes me nervous. Logically, it seems like self selection is the most likely answer for this, meaning that Michigan 2Ls just don't bid NYC at the same rate as their peers at other schools. But, at the same time, the difference in absolute percentages are kind of scary.

Gun to my head, I'd say that at least a large portion of UVA's employment stats advantage is probably because of self-selection, and that whatever placement advantage UVA might have isn't worth 60k .

Sorry that was kind of rambling, and probably not altogether super helpful.

[bruinfan10]

Seems like UW is off the table then. Just doesn't give me a realistic shot at my goals of BigLaw. Any objective way to determine how much more a Virginia degree is worth than Michigan given my goals? Also, is it safe to reasonably assume that Michigan opens up NY BL as long as I don't fall too far below median? (have two years of corporate work experience, and generally think I'm personable in interviews).

i hope you get some adult advice in this thread. i would not attend any T14 if it required $260,000 of debt. and while it may all seem like monopoly money to you, UVA is not worth 60k more than Michigan. my entire indebtedness coming out of law school wasn't much higher than 60k, and it's been a SLOG paying it off. you need to try to wrap your head around the repayment numbers.

if you're at least around top 50% at michigan, you can get NY biglaw with a decent amount of effort. below that it's more of a struggle. higher in the class, dc placement and fedclerk placement compared to UVA starts becoming a wash really really quickly. maybe the UVA apologist guy in this thread can tell you how low in the class NY law firms dip at Virginia---maybe you can go as low as top 60% at UVA and get hired by NYC biglaw? I wouldn't pay 60k more for those increased odds. if anything, i'd go for a semester or maybe two to see if i was good at law school exams and drop the hell out if it looked like i couldn't place better than top-50% of the class.

but again, retake or don't got at 260k+ of debt.

[fliptrip]

Seems like UW is off the table then. Just doesn't give me a realistic shot at my goals of BigLaw. Any objective way to determine how much more a Virginia degree is worth than Michigan given my goals? Also, is it safe to reasonably assume that Michigan opens up NY BL as long as I don't fall too far below median? (have two years of corporate work experience, and generally think I'm personable in interviews).

I don't think there is an objective way to determine it, unfortunately. UVA places a lot of grads in DC, but I have to believe that's almost entirely due to self selection. There seem to be some on TLS that that argue UVA has a placement edge in DC, but personally I doubt it.

Theoretically it seems like Michigan should open up NY with ok grades. Its peers in the T14 definitely do that. On the other hand, Mich consistently has the worst placement in the T14 sans GULC and that makes me nervous. Logically, it seems like self selection is the most likely answer for this, meaning that Michigan 2Ls just don't bid NYC at the same rate as their peers at other schools. But, at the same time, the difference in absolute percentages are kind of scary.

Gun to my head, I'd say that at least a large portion of UVA's employment stats advantage is probably because of self-selection, and that whatever placement advantage UVA might have isn't worth 60k .

Sorry that was kind of rambling, and probably not altogether super helpful.

This absolutely can be looked at objectively, not sure why you're so sure it can't be. 2 years in big law in NYC is worth $330,000 in salary subtracting bonuses. By going to school, you're buying a chance at that payoff in some sense. If you assume that 80% of a t-14 is pursuing biglaw, then here's your expected payoffs:

UVA: $280k
UM: $223k

So, your COA is what you paid for those outcomes. And, your net is basically equivalent at your current costs.

If you owe $260k at repayment, OP, your monthly payment is $2,992/month. Let's look at how that influences your life.

$2,992 is 22% of your gross income your first year in biglaw. That leaves 21% to spend on housing and any other debt service. So, think about having $2,800/month to spend on housing and any other debt. If you assume that you will not be able to live with yourself if you can't spend less than $1,500/month on rent, the minimum you can make and service your loan on a 10-year am is $125k/year and that's with you not having any other debt to service, so no car note, no credit card debt, no nothing but housing + this damn loan.

So, really, you'll either get lucky, stick it out in biglaw for a while, then exit to a good paying option and get those loans out of your life in 10 years or sooner. Or, you'll stretch the am on your loan to get the monthly payment down and end up paying through the nose in interest in order to do so.

What do you think?

[existentialcrisis]

Seems like UW is off the table then. Just doesn't give me a realistic shot at my goals of BigLaw. Any objective way to determine how much more a Virginia degree is worth than Michigan given my goals? Also, is it safe to reasonably assume that Michigan opens up NY BL as long as I don't fall too far below median? (have two years of corporate work experience, and generally think I'm personable in interviews).

I don't think there is an objective way to determine it, unfortunately. UVA places a lot of grads in DC, but I have to believe that's almost entirely due to self selection. There seem to be some on TLS that that argue UVA has a placement edge in DC, but personally I doubt it.

Theoretically it seems like Michigan should open up NY with ok grades. Its peers in the T14 definitely do that. On the other hand, Mich consistently has the worst placement in the T14 sans GULC and that makes me nervous. Logically, it seems like self selection is the most likely answer for this, meaning that Michigan 2Ls just don't bid NYC at the same rate as their peers at other schools. But, at the same time, the difference in absolute percentages are kind of scary.

Gun to my head, I'd say that at least a large portion of UVA's employment stats advantage is probably because of self-selection, and that whatever placement advantage UVA might have isn't worth 60k .

Sorry that was kind of rambling, and probably not altogether super helpful.

This absolutely can be looked at objectively, not sure why you're so sure it can't be. 2 years in big law in NYC is worth $330,000 in salary subtracting bonuses. By going to school, you're buying a chance at that payoff in some sense. If you assume that 80% of a t-14 is pursuing biglaw, then here's your expected payoffs:

UVA: $280k
UM: $223k

So, your COA is what you paid for those outcomes. And, your net is basically equivalent at your current costs.

If you owe $260k at repayment, OP, your monthly payment is $2,992/month. Let's look at how that influences your life.

$2,992 is 22% of your gross income your first year in biglaw. That leaves 21% to spend on housing and any other debt service. So, think about having $2,800/month to spend on housing and any other debt. If you assume that you will not be able to live with yourself if you can't spend less than $1,500/month on rent, the minimum you can make and service your loan on a 10-year am is $125k/year and that's with you not having any other debt to service, so no car note, no credit card debt, no nothing but housing + this damn loan.

So, really, you'll either get lucky, stick it out in biglaw for a while, then exit to a good paying option and get those loans out of your life in 10 years or sooner. Or, you'll stretch the am on your loan to get the monthly payment down and end up paying through the nose in interest in order to do so.

What do you think?

Because there's no real way to objectively measure placement power and thus your odds of getting biglaw/the outcome you want. Employment stats are the closest we can get, and they are very helpful, but self-selection is obviously a huge factor there too.

A favorite TLS topic of debate is whether or not Michigan's relatively low BL+FC is due to self-selection and kids bidding stupidly, or whether it's because firms hate Michigan or whatever. I have no idea, I don't go there. But there's no way to know whether UVA actually gives you a statistically better chance of landing big law in a vacuum.

My hunch is that UVA doesn't actually give you as much of a placement advantage in big law over Michigan as its employment numbers would suggest. So I don't think we can really accurately gauge how much more security, if any, UVA gives you.

[stig2014]

Seems like UW is off the table then. Just doesn't give me a realistic shot at my goals of BigLaw. Any objective way to determine how much more a Virginia degree is worth than Michigan given my goals? Also, is it safe to reasonably assume that Michigan opens up NY BL as long as I don't fall too far below median? (have two years of corporate work experience, and generally think I'm personable in interviews).

I don't think there is an objective way to determine it, unfortunately. UVA places a lot of grads in DC, but I have to believe that's almost entirely due to self selection. There seem to be some on TLS that that argue UVA has a placement edge in DC, but personally I doubt it.

Theoretically it seems like Michigan should open up NY with ok grades. Its peers in the T14 definitely do that. On the other hand, Mich consistently has the worst placement in the T14 sans GULC and that makes me nervous. Logically, it seems like self selection is the most likely answer for this, meaning that Michigan 2Ls just don't bid NYC at the same rate as their peers at other schools. But, at the same time, the difference in absolute percentages are kind of scary.

Gun to my head, I'd say that at least a large portion of UVA's employment stats advantage is probably because of self-selection, and that whatever placement advantage UVA might have isn't worth 60k .

Sorry that was kind of rambling, and probably not altogether super helpful.

This absolutely can be looked at objectively, not sure why you're so sure it can't be. 2 years in big law in NYC is worth $330,000 in salary subtracting bonuses. By going to school, you're buying a chance at that payoff in some sense. If you assume that 80% of a t-14 is pursuing biglaw, then here's your expected payoffs:

UVA: $280k
UM: $223k

So, your COA is what you paid for those outcomes. And, your net is basically equivalent at your current costs.

If you owe $260k at repayment, OP, your monthly payment is $2,992/month. Let's look at how that influences your life.

$2,992 is 22% of your gross income your first year in biglaw. That leaves 21% to spend on housing and any other debt service. So, think about having $2,800/month to spend on housing and any other debt. If you assume that you will not be able to live with yourself if you can't spend less than $1,500/month on rent, the minimum you can make and service your loan on a 10-year am is $125k/year and that's with you not having any other debt to service, so no car note, no credit card debt, no nothing but housing + this damn loan.

So, really, you'll either get lucky, stick it out in biglaw for a while, then exit to a good paying option and get those loans out of your life in 10 years or sooner. Or, you'll stretch the am on your loan to get the monthly payment down and end up paying through the nose in interest in order to do so.

What do you think?

Because there's no real way to objectively measure placement power and thus your odds of getting biglaw/the outcome you want. Employment stats are the closest we can get, and they are very helpful, but self-selection is obviously a huge factor there too.

A favorite TLS topic of debate is whether or not Michigan's relatively low BL+FC is due to self-selection and kids bidding stupidly, or whether it's because firms hate Michigan or whatever. I have no idea, I don't go there. But there's no way to know whether UVA actually gives you a statistically better chance of landing big law in a vacuum.

My hunch is that UVA doesn't actually give you as much of a placement advantage in big law over Michigan as its employment numbers would suggest. So I don't think we can really accurately gauge how much more security, if any, UVA gives you.

Thanks to everyone for your opinions. I think I'm uncomfortable with the amount of debt required for UVA. I don't love the amount required for Michigan, but given my GPA, I don't think it's too bad of a decision. Seems like I'm leaning towards Michigan!

[existentialcrisis]

Seems like UW is off the table then. Just doesn't give me a realistic shot at my goals of BigLaw. Any objective way to determine how much more a Virginia degree is worth than Michigan given my goals? Also, is it safe to reasonably assume that Michigan opens up NY BL as long as I don't fall too far below median? (have two years of corporate work experience, and generally think I'm personable in interviews).

I don't think there is an objective way to determine it, unfortunately. UVA places a lot of grads in DC, but I have to believe that's almost entirely due to self selection. There seem to be some on TLS that that argue UVA has a placement edge in DC, but personally I doubt it.

Theoretically it seems like Michigan should open up NY with ok grades. Its peers in the T14 definitely do that. On the other hand, Mich consistently has the worst placement in the T14 sans GULC and that makes me nervous. Logically, it seems like self selection is the most likely answer for this, meaning that Michigan 2Ls just don't bid NYC at the same rate as their peers at other schools. But, at the same time, the difference in absolute percentages are kind of scary.

Gun to my head, I'd say that at least a large portion of UVA's employment stats advantage is probably because of self-selection, and that whatever placement advantage UVA might have isn't worth 60k .

Sorry that was kind of rambling, and probably not altogether super helpful.

This absolutely can be looked at objectively, not sure why you're so sure it can't be. 2 years in big law in NYC is worth $330,000 in salary subtracting bonuses. By going to school, you're buying a chance at that payoff in some sense. If you assume that 80% of a t-14 is pursuing biglaw, then here's your expected payoffs:

UVA: $280k
UM: $223k

So, your COA is what you paid for those outcomes. And, your net is basically equivalent at your current costs.

If you owe $260k at repayment, OP, your monthly payment is $2,992/month. Let's look at how that influences your life.

$2,992 is 22% of your gross income your first year in biglaw. That leaves 21% to spend on housing and any other debt service. So, think about having $2,800/month to spend on housing and any other debt. If you assume that you will not be able to live with yourself if you can't spend less than $1,500/month on rent, the minimum you can make and service your loan on a 10-year am is $125k/year and that's with you not having any other debt to service, so no car note, no credit card debt, no nothing but housing + this damn loan.

So, really, you'll either get lucky, stick it out in biglaw for a while, then exit to a good paying option and get those loans out of your life in 10 years or sooner. Or, you'll stretch the am on your loan to get the monthly payment down and end up paying through the nose in interest in order to do so.

What do you think?

Because there's no real way to objectively measure placement power and thus your odds of getting biglaw/the outcome you want. Employment stats are the closest we can get, and they are very helpful, but self-selection is obviously a huge factor there too.

A favorite TLS topic of debate is whether or not Michigan's relatively low BL+FC is due to self-selection and kids bidding stupidly, or whether it's because firms hate Michigan or whatever. I have no idea, I don't go there. But there's no way to know whether UVA actually gives you a statistically better chance of landing big law in a vacuum.

My hunch is that UVA doesn't actually give you as much of a placement advantage in big law over Michigan as its employment numbers would suggest. So I don't think we can really accurately gauge how much more security, if any, UVA gives you.

Thanks to everyone for your opinions. I think I'm uncomfortable with the amount of debt required for UVA. I don't love the amount required for Michigan, but given my GPA, I don't think it's too bad of a decision. Seems like I'm leaning towards Michigan!

Could you maybe get more money with a couple more points with a retake? I know scholarships are tough for splitters regardless, but maybe something worth thinking about?

In terms of the placement stuff I was talking about before. If you really want big law and you do end up at Michigan (or UVA actually) and you don't end up at the very top of your class, you need to bid NY heavily, even if DC is your first choice.

[drillteam]

I guess I am the "UVA apologist" per an earlier post. Just to be clear: if DC is a goal whether Biglaw, clerking or other govt, UVA is superior to Mich in terms of hiring, access or contacts. It is self selection of course but that is because it is a well marked path from Charlottesville. But if DC is only a weak preference then take the Mich money

[Tls2016]

I guess I am the "UVA apologist" per an earlier post. Just to be clear: if DC is a goal whether Biglaw, clerking or other govt, UVA is superior to Mich in terms of hiring, access or contacts. It is self selection of course but that is because it is a well marked path from Charlottesville. But if DC is only a weak preference then take the Mich money

The real problem is that DC is so highly competitive that paying an extra 5 figures for UVA could easily be wasted money. OP can't assume DC from either UVA or Michigan and will probably end up in biglaw in NYC to try to pay off the debt.

Both these schools are too expensive for me to recommend but no way UVA is worth that much more for a slim shot at a competitive job.

[stig2014]

Do the new employment stats released for the class of 2015 change anyone's opinion?

Also, I recognize how difficult D.C. BL is to get, I even mentioned this in my op, it's just my top pick at the moment if it were to be available to me. I'm more than ok with NY.