Chicago Law vs. Southern Schools Forum

[wareagle11]

I'm pretty lucky to be deciding between several options that are all pretty good. However I don't have substantial savings so at any school the entire cost of attendance would be financed through loans. If I do take out loans though, my parents have offered to let me stay at a rental house if I return to live in Birmingham (free rent combined with a low cost of living would let me pay off any loans fairly quickly). UVA Law offered $0, UChicago offered $30,000, Duke Law offered $90,000, Vandy offered $125,000, and my instate school, Alabama, offered a full ride + stipend with a 2.5 gpa stipulation.

As far as a future career goes, I'm most interested in Alabama Biglaw/Midlaw. I have some connections in my home legal market and they've all told me that if I attended a prestigious school (they mentioned Duke and UVA in particular), I shouldn't have a problem getting an offer at a Birmingham firm unless my grades are abysmal. Even though Biglaw is my primary goal, academia (if my grades allow) or public interest (if at a really cool organization like the ACLU) could also be career outcomes I may enjoy. But my primary focus is still on the Alabama private sector market. I'm currently leaning towards UChicago based on their increased placement into academia, the more generous LRAP, and the increased portability if for whatever reason I strike out in my home market or decide on a different target market at some point in the future. But I am a little bit apprehensive that if I attend UChicago then I may be forced into working in Chicago or NYC after graduation - Birmingham firms don't do OCI at UChicago for example. At this point in my life I would really, really want to avoid working in either Chicago or NYC.

I am slightly worried that the lack of UChicago alumni in the state of Alabama (only 23) may limit some of my career options. Is it worth the extra debt to attend UChicago and should I be worried about the lack of an alumni base in my home state? Is there really any tangible difference in prestige between Duke and UChicago? Is anyone knowledgable about the Birmingham legal market that can give advice? And perhaps most importantly - are any of the schools absolutely terrible choices?

If it's relevant, my stats are a 171/3.8 with 2 attempts on the LSAT

[radient]

I would say Bama here given the super low CoA and your goals.

[gerard]

I think Duke makes sense with your goals. It's a great school, they're offering you pretty good money, and you'd have no problem getting biglaw or midlaw in Alabama from there. You'll pay off the debt fairly quickly if you want to work in a firm, and you'll probably be able to reach all your career goals. Plus you'd leave the door open to academia if you do really, really well.

You wouldn't be crazy for choosing Bama, though. You just might be closing the door on academia, and you'd probably have to hustle more for the jobs you want. You've got good options for your goals though. Congrats, and good luck!

[Za-or-Nah]

FWIW, I recently went through the process of making a similar choice. You've got to assume that your grades will put you at the median, so unless you're willing to work for smaller Birmingham firms, Alabama is largely out. Anecdotally I've been told that you have to be in the top 10% there just to get an interview with the big firms.

I chose Chicago over Duke for several reasons, but the two that are relevant to you is that a) the debt was going to be equal and yet less than what you're looking at, and b) I wanted to leave the door open for staying in Chicago rather than returning to Birmingham. Given your most likely career outcomes, the debt at Chicago just doesn't seem justifiable given the below market rates that firms in the Ham pay, while at Duke you at least hedge against median performance but still keep the debt relatively manageable.

[BigZuck]

I think you're underestimating your debt at a lot of those schools by a substantial amount- for example Chicago would probably be closer to 250K, UVA would probably be pushing closer to 300K. I'm guessing Duke would be a good tick more than 60K cheaper than Chicago, probably closer to 70 or 80K cheaper.

I don't love the cost of attendance you're looking at for any of the T14 schools here but gun to my head I guess I would say Duke. It seems like you underperformed though- I was able to get that same scholarship at Duke 3 cycles ago and both my GPA and LSAT were lower. I might be out of touch though, maybe things have changed a lot in the past 3 years.

I think Alabama is out based on goals.

[wareagle11]

I think you're underestimating your debt at a lot of those schools by a substantial amount- for example Chicago would probably be closer to 250K, UVA would probably be pushing closer to 300K. I'm guessing Duke would be a good tick more than 60K cheaper than Chicago, probably closer to 70 or 80K cheaper.

I don't love the cost of attendance you're looking at for any of the T14 schools here but gun to my head I guess I would say Duke. It seems like you underperformed though- I was able to get that same scholarship at Duke 3 cycles ago and both my GPA and LSAT were lower. I might be out of touch though, maybe things have changed a lot in the past 3 years.

I think Alabama is out based on goals.

That's a good point - I added the poll later and I (under)estimated the numbers. I'll adjust it

[zeg]

I voted Duke. T14 1L that was in similar situation (war eagle!), and similar career goals. Chicago and Duke would both give you great (read:guaranteed) chance at Birmingham firms with your ties. PM if you want details/info on the Birmingham market/1L job search. Good luck!

[WheninLaw]

I like Duke or Bama.

[hairbear7]

Have you negotiated yet? You should be getting more money

[existentialcrisis]

I'd do duke or UVA, but I feel like they both (especially UVA) lowballed you hard. I would try to negotiate as hard as possible and take the cheaper of those two options.

I see why people are saying Bama as it leaves you debt free and gives you at least a shot at big Birmingham firms, but I feel like it's really tough to count on being in the top 10ish % of the class.

[fliptrip]

I don't have detailed knowledge of firm life in Alabama, though I know several practicing attorneys who are on their own basically there. Everything I know about the state screams to me that if you're committed to the state, you're best off going to Alabama. UChicago is a no-go I think and there's no planet on which you should borrow $280k for UVA for your goals. Duke I guess is okay, but I'd be nervous about it getting you anywhere good performance at UA won't get you.

Roll Tide!

[existentialcrisis]

I don't have detailed knowledge of firm life in Alabama, though I know several practicing attorneys who are on their own basically there. Everything I know about the state screams to me that if you're committed to the state, you're best off going to Alabama. UChicago is a no-go I think and there's no planet on which you should borrow $280k for UVA for your goals. Duke I guess is okay, but I'd be nervous about it getting you anywhere good performance at UA won't get you.

Roll Tide!

I would say almost literally exactly the opposite of this. I have heard of lots of T14ers from Alabama landing 1L SAs at large Birmingham firms. From what I understand often they're extending offers before grades even come out. I don't have first hand knowledge, but from what I've heard they're willing to dig pretty deep into UVA, Duke, etc. classes, while they're only hiring the top students from Bama.

I'm not suggesting that you should pay 280k for UVA, and I'd be more comfortable with less debt from Duke, but these schools almost unquestionably give you a better shot at Birmingham big law.

[fliptrip]

I don't have detailed knowledge of firm life in Alabama, though I know several practicing attorneys who are on their own basically there. Everything I know about the state screams to me that if you're committed to the state, you're best off going to Alabama. UChicago is a no-go I think and there's no planet on which you should borrow $280k for UVA for your goals. Duke I guess is okay, but I'd be nervous about it getting you anywhere good performance at UA won't get you.

Roll Tide!

I would say almost literally exactly the opposite of this. I have heard of lots of T14ers from Alabama landing 1L SAs at large Birmingham firms. From what I understand often they're extending offers before grades even come out. I don't have first hand knowledge, but from what I've heard they're willing to dig pretty deep into UVA, Duke, etc. classes, while they're only hiring the top students from Bama.

I'm not suggesting that you should pay 280k for UVA, and I'd be more comfortable with less debt from Duke, but these schools almost unquestionably give you a better shot at Birmingham big law.

I'm happy to be wrong, but I have to say that this is very surprising. They are so enamored of the fancy name that they will make an offer before seeing folks grades? That's verrrrry interesting.

[BigZuck]

I don't have detailed knowledge of firm life in Alabama, though I know several practicing attorneys who are on their own basically there. Everything I know about the state screams to me that if you're committed to the state, you're best off going to Alabama. UChicago is a no-go I think and there's no planet on which you should borrow $280k for UVA for your goals. Duke I guess is okay, but I'd be nervous about it getting you anywhere good performance at UA won't get you.

Roll Tide!

I would say almost literally exactly the opposite of this. I have heard of lots of T14ers from Alabama landing 1L SAs at large Birmingham firms. From what I understand often they're extending offers before grades even come out. I don't have first hand knowledge, but from what I've heard they're willing to dig pretty deep into UVA, Duke, etc. classes, while they're only hiring the top students from Bama.

I'm not suggesting that you should pay 280k for UVA, and I'd be more comfortable with less debt from Duke, but these schools almost unquestionably give you a better shot at Birmingham big law.

I'm happy to be wrong, but I have to say that this is very surprising. They are so enamored of the fancy name that they will make an offer before seeing folks grades? That's verrrrry interesting.

Happens a lot in Texas too. Dukies (or Harvardians, or Pennsters, or whatever) sometimes get offers before/regardless of grades whereas UTers typically have to be at least top 25%ers

Doesn't surprise me to hear that at all.

[existentialcrisis]

I don't have detailed knowledge of firm life in Alabama, though I know several practicing attorneys who are on their own basically there. Everything I know about the state screams to me that if you're committed to the state, you're best off going to Alabama. UChicago is a no-go I think and there's no planet on which you should borrow $280k for UVA for your goals. Duke I guess is okay, but I'd be nervous about it getting you anywhere good performance at UA won't get you.

Roll Tide!

I would say almost literally exactly the opposite of this. I have heard of lots of T14ers from Alabama landing 1L SAs at large Birmingham firms. From what I understand often they're extending offers before grades even come out. I don't have first hand knowledge, but from what I've heard they're willing to dig pretty deep into UVA, Duke, etc. classes, while they're only hiring the top students from Bama.

I'm not suggesting that you should pay 280k for UVA, and I'd be more comfortable with less debt from Duke, but these schools almost unquestionably give you a better shot at Birmingham big law.

I'm happy to be wrong, but I have to say that this is very surprising. They are so enamored of the fancy name that they will make an offer before seeing folks grades? That's verrrrry interesting.

I just did a quick search and a bunch of threads basically confirmed what I was saying, I don't think they always make offers without seeing grades though but that definitely does happen. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=161237

In general, secondary markets love T14 students with ties and large Alabama firms are no exception. I think Alabama firms do things a little differently and have much lower offer rates for SAs though.

Here's a list of Bradley Arant's UVA attorneys for example:

http://www.babc.com/people/xpqProfResul ... nalResults

[Za-or-Nah]

I don't have detailed knowledge of firm life in Alabama, though I know several practicing attorneys who are on their own basically there. Everything I know about the state screams to me that if you're committed to the state, you're best off going to Alabama. UChicago is a no-go I think and there's no planet on which you should borrow $280k for UVA for your goals. Duke I guess is okay, but I'd be nervous about it getting you anywhere good performance at UA won't get you.

Roll Tide!

I would say almost literally exactly the opposite of this. I have heard of lots of T14ers from Alabama landing 1L SAs at large Birmingham firms. From what I understand often they're extending offers before grades even come out. I don't have first hand knowledge, but from what I've heard they're willing to dig pretty deep into UVA, Duke, etc. classes, while they're only hiring the top students from Bama.

I'm not suggesting that you should pay 280k for UVA, and I'd be more comfortable with less debt from Duke, but these schools almost unquestionably give you a better shot at Birmingham big law.

I'm happy to be wrong, but I have to say that this is very surprising. They are so enamored of the fancy name that they will make an offer before seeing folks grades? That's verrrrry interesting.

I just did a quick search and a bunch of threads basically confirmed what I was saying, I don't think they always make offers without seeing grades though but that definitely does happen. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=161237

In general, secondary markets love T14 students with ties and large Alabama firms are no exception. I think Alabama firms do things a little differently and have much lower offer rates for SAs though.

Here's a list of Bradley Arant's UVA attorneys for example:

http://www.babc.com/people/xpqProfResul ... nalResults

Not as data driven as existentialcrisis' above post, but from everything I've been told by people who went to my UG and then gone T14, can confirm that they can do the whole pre-grade thing.

[lawschoolletsgo]

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