Yale vs. Harvard vs. Ruby; Family Considerations Forum

[WinterComing]

Schools

Yale: No aid offer yet, but very likely to be $0 [edit: ended up with roughly $20,000 for 1L]; total COA would be about $300,000; loans would be about $150,000
Harvard: $0 "award"; total COA would be about $300,000; loans would be about $100,000
Chicago: Rubenstein scholarship (full tuition plus stipend); total COA would be about $80,000; loans would be $0

Financing

I've got some savings that I can comfortably put toward law school. My wife's income will cover cost of living. Beyond that, we'd need to take loans. My parents won't be helping me pay for law school.

Career Goals

I currently work as a journalist, and I'm going to law school so that I can make more of an impact on the issues about which I've written extensively. I'd like to do impact litigation for the ACLU or DOJ. A fallback from those next-to-impossible goals would be less prestigious PI, like public defender. I'd also maybe consider doing plaintiff litigation for the right firm with the right goals.

Stats

4.05, 174, one take

Family and Other Considerations

Here's where it gets complicated. My wife is really successful. She's graciously uprooting her life to move away from friends and a job she really likes, all so I can go to law school. We have a newborn daughter, and I'm hesitant to chain her to a mountain of debt. Until a few weeks ago, I was pretty set on taking the Ruby. Then out of the blue, my wife got an interview for a job in Boston that would double her salary. Suddenly Harvard was back in as a contender. I figured if she got the job, Harvard, and if not, Chicago. Then this past weekend, I got into Yale, which seems like it would have some major advantages for my goals. My wife was initially pretty anti-New Haven, but with more research, it feels livable. More important, there's a possibility that with its proximity to New York, she could keep working for her current company. In Chicago, she'd have to job search from scratch, though I like her chances. Of course, because of our future dual income, we're basically ineligible for LIPP or COAP.

Are these options comparable enough that I should just let my wife decide, even if she picks Harvard which is probably the third best option in a vacuum? Does Yale help me enough with my specific goals to be worth the money? Or should I just shut up and take the Ruby?

EDIT: I cut out some of the identifying info from this post, but left enough so that perhaps the thread can be useful to future generations or whatnot. Also, I ended up getting a pretty generous need-based aid award at Yale, which made my final decision easier.

[Bearlyalive]

Question, not that I plan to try to give advice since I'm out of my depth here, but for clarification for others who might have something of value to contribute: since none of these schools are in the city where you want to work post-law school, I'm wondering how your wife's career will impacted by having to move again in three years. The VP job in Boston sounds like an incredible opportunity, but is it something that she would be willing to leave again once you're done with school? The same more or less applies to Chicago/Yale, but for Yale it almost seems even worse (starting up a branch of a company, and then having to leave it after a few short years; would they let her do something similar starting a DC office?).

I'm also wondering what thought you've given to how you will juggle your summer jobs as a new father. It is obviously not going to be an option to have your wife come with you to DC if you've got an internship with the DOJ or something, so managing travel arrangements to be with your family on weekends should definitely be a factor. This might be easier in Yale, where you might just take the train into NYC (very doable commute) for a summer job (or even easier at HLS if you're willing to stay in Boston for summers), but you'd be giving up the opportunity to do work in DC. I think Chicago would probably be the most difficult of these to manage, unless (again) you're willing to forgo some opportunities to spend both summers in Chicago (which would probably have some impact on your ability to land some of the higher reaches like ACLU civil impact).

ETA: feel free to PM when you remove if I included a bit too many of your details in here, and I'll take this down too.

[WinterComing]

since none of these schools are in the city where you want to work post-law school, I'm wondering how your wife's career will impacted by having to move again in three years.

I'm also wondering what thought you've given to how you will juggle your summer jobs as a new father.

Good questions.

1. It's pretty hard to predict how moving again in three years will impact my wife's career. With the Boston job, the startup is just about to go to market, and she'd be responsible for the launch. It's a risky opportunity, and whether the startup takes off or crashes would determine what makes sense for her three years from now. With Yale, if she keeps her current job, I think she could probably continue to work remotely from wherever we end up, like DC. Clerkships make it even more complicated. Obviously, it's a ton of moving, and we've both decided that wherever we end up with permanent jobs after my law school and potential clerkships, we'd like to stay forever.

2. Being with my wife and daughter is really my top priority. For 1L summer, I'd try to stay in the city where I go to school, all three of which have people who could use my help, I'm sure. For my 2L summer, yeah, we'll probably have to live apart for a few months while I'm in DC. Not ideal, but better than living apart for a more extended period.

[Bearlyalive]

since none of these schools are in the city where you want to work post-law school, I'm wondering how your wife's career will impacted by having to move again in three years.

I'm also wondering what thought you've given to how you will juggle your summer jobs as a new father.

Good questions.

Alright, then building off of this (and still trying to not give advice, just relevant info), since you want to stay in the same city 1L summer, I would look into opportunities that exist that would funnel into the kind of work you want to do 2L summer. Additionally, since you'll likely be more limited in which opportunities you can take advantage of during your summers, I'd definitely look into which school gives the most flexibility in terms of trying things out as soon as you arrive. I know that Yale lets students participate in clinics starting their second semester, and that they have some great offerings focused on helping the New Haven community; something like that might be really valuable for getting a sense of what kind of work you want to do, and also build the connections to transfer that experience to the job you want. I don't know as much about H or Chi 's clinical offerings and their availability (despite the formers being shoved down our throats at ASW haha). You might also want to weigh how much time those sorts of opportunities will consume; it might not be feasible to do a clinic that requires 25 hrs/week in addition to coursework while taking care of a baby in a new city.

OK, I'll break my vow from actual advice giving on one point, but only because I think I actually have somewhat relevant experience: be wary of the quarter system at Chicago. It might be a LOT easier to make the law school transition with a family without having as much stress put on grades/finals an extra session per year. Fortunately, Chicago does the whole "2 exams Fall, 2 exams Winter, 4 Spring" for 1L, which definitely makes it more doable for you (and thus, in my opinion doesn't rule it out entirely), but once you're a 2L you'll be back to doing up to 4 exams per quarter, every 11 weeks or so. I did that for undergrad, and it really sucks. I would hesitate to translate that experience into law school terms, but having read through the Ask a Chicago Student thread, it seems like plenty of students there feel pretty buried in terms of coursework during their 2L year.

Considering the fact that I think it's even more important for you than most people to be able to take advantage of extracurricular activities during the school year, and especially since many of the career paths you've expressed interest in are very grade dependent (and not just focused on 1L grades like many private routes), I think that this should be an important consideration. Really do your due diligence in looking into how the quarter system plays out. YLS and HLS may give you way more time to spend with your family while not sacrificing opportunities.

[jbagelboy]

I would attend Yale in your unique position. My reasons are threefold:

(1) it would benefit your family to be in new england; and
(2) for your goals and background, YLS provides a non-negligible advantage in institutional support.
(3) the debt will crush you since your spousal income blows up LRAP, but you don't seem like someone who's in this for enlarging monetary net worth, so you can live at a low QOL and repay over time.

Congratulations on such terrific outcomes and good luck.

[jbagelboy]

*by the way I don't understand your discussion of DC employers here. You say you don't want to do defense work (i.e. Large firms), but those are the 'employers' in DC where your comments make sense. So maybe you could clarify that too.

[WinterComing]

*by the way I don't understand your discussion of DC employers here. You say you don't want to do defense work (i.e. Large firms), but those are the 'employers' in DC where your comments make sense. So maybe you could clarify that too.

Thanks for the correction. My 0L ignorance was showing on that point, I think. I was under the mistaken assumption that Yale outweighed grades for private firms and for certain federal government jobs. If it's just for firms, then that won't apply to me, you're right.

[abl]

*by the way I don't understand your discussion of DC employers here. You say you don't want to do defense work (i.e. Large firms), but those are the 'employers' in DC where your comments make sense. So maybe you could clarify that too.

Thanks for the correction. My 0L ignorance was showing on that point, I think. I was under the mistaken assumption that Yale outweighed grades for private firms or for certain federal government jobs. If it's just for firms, then that won't apply to me, you're right.

There is no "one place" for really anywhere: it's almost always going to be a sliding scale. My sense is that hard-to-land fed gov positions are no less prestige-focused than elite biglaw outcomes. (So I would assume that Yale gives you a slight leg up for DOJ honors versus even Harvard and maybe Stanford.) But it's not like Yale's a magical land of "grades don't matter at all" that stands in stark contrast to the super grade-conscious places that are Harvard or Stanford (ha). Grades matter at Yale, but less than at Stanford, where grades matter, but less than at NYU, where grades matter...etc.

[Hikikomorist]

If your wife doesn't get that high-paying job in Boston, I think Chicago is the clear choice.

[WinterComing]

*by the way I don't understand your discussion of DC employers here. You say you don't want to do defense work (i.e. Large firms), but those are the 'employers' in DC where your comments make sense. So maybe you could clarify that too.

Thanks for the correction. My 0L ignorance was showing on that point, I think. I was under the mistaken assumption that Yale outweighed grades for private firms or for certain federal government jobs. If it's just for firms, then that won't apply to me, you're right.

There is no "one place" for really anywhere: it's almost always going to be a sliding scale. My sense is that hard-to-land fed gov positions are no less prestige-focused than elite biglaw outcomes. (So I would assume that Yale gives you a slight leg up for DOJ honors versus even Harvard and maybe Stanford.) But it's not like Yale's a magical land of "grades don't matter at all" that stands in stark contrast to the super grade-conscious places that are Harvard or Stanford (ha). Grades matter at Yale, but less than at Stanford, where grades matter, but less than at NYU, where grades matter...etc.

I understand that. Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to say that I plan to go to Yale so I can slack off. I'll work my ass off for good grades regardless of where I go. But TLS says to assume median. So with the same grades at every school, it seems like perhaps Yale would give me the best opportunities. What is that worth? I don't know.

[dietcoke1]

It seems to me that as far as career goals go Yale would have the most traction with employers. When considering the best financial route, Chicago.

And Harvard seems like the middle option. If your wife can land that VP job, not only will she be advancing/continuing her career and help offset the COA, but also Harvard has that name-brand that reaches a little farther than Chicago I think. Maybe not as far as Yale, but pretty close to it.

I think you can't go wrong with any option but Harvard makes the most sense to me, considering careers goals for your wife and yourself, and her salary helping the COA.

Good luck!

[ticklemesilly]

Yale doesn't have grades. DC is not grade sensitive to the point that a low rank at Harvard/Stanford will preclude you from it. These are the powerhouses of legal academia. The legal world is your oyster wherever you go.

[fliptrip]

What was/is wife's vote, Winter?

Yale does have grades after the first year, fwiw. I'm pretty sure there's no forced curves either.

[WinterComing]

Harvard has that name-brand

And they're proud of it! At the ASW, I was told at least four times that of the 12 people hired by DOJ civil rights last year, 4 or 5 (accounts varied) were from Harvard. Not very good odds at that gig no matter where you go to law school, I suppose.

[Tls2016]

Just go to Yale. I feel that your life is going to be fine.
You are a person who will benefit from the many intangibles that Yale offers.
You should go for it.

[WinterComing]

What was/is wife's vote, Winter?

Yale does have grades after the first year, fwiw. I'm pretty sure there's no forced curves either.

Well, her vote has changed over time. When she agreed to go along for this law school ride, one of her conditions was that I not apply to Yale or Cornell, because she didn't want to move to either city. I kept half of that promise (she seems to have forgiven me for the other half).

She was all-in on Chicago the day I got the Ruby call. At this point, I think she'd vote Harvard if she gets the job and be 50-50 between Chicago and Yale if she doesn't.

[Tls2016]

Your wife may not like New Haven but it has some positive things. I go to the Art and Ideas Festival ever year with friends who live in Connecticut, it is easy to get to NYC from New Haven and it is close enough to the Sound if you want to be on the water and easy to drive to mountains if you prefer.

[Emma.]

I'm happy to give you some Chicago perspective but I'd rather do it by PM. Feel free to shoot me a message.

[jbagelboy]

What was/is wife's vote, Winter?

Yale does have grades after the first year semester, fwiw. I'm pretty sure there's no forced curves either.

[jbagelboy]

for what it's worth, I don't think you should go to Yale over Chicago just because it's Yale. In the abstract (and for the vast majority), the Rubenstein is the best outcome in the law school application world. In your family situation, and given that you may actually have the credentials and issue-specific ambition to avoid the private sector, Yale becomes the better option.

Unless Boston >>> New Haven for your wife (which wasn't very clear in the OP), I don't think HLS is cost justified, and you'll get completely screwed by LIPP. The law school 'brand' talk is mostly just a TLS/aspie law student syndrome.

[rpupkin]

That's a tough one, WinterComing.

I think I'm slightly less debt-averse than the typical TLS'er, but I keep coming back to this:

Yale: No aid offer yet, but very likely to be $0; total COA would be about $300,000; loans would be about $150,000
Chicago: Rubenstein scholarship (full tuition plus stipend); total COA would be about $80,000; loans would be $0

So the COA difference between YLS and Chi is $220,000? That's a lot of money, particularly when you consider that the jobs you're interested in don't pay well. When you're out of law school and trying to build a life with your family, an extra $220,000 will mean a lot—probably more than you can appreciate at the moment.

I don't know. YLS will give you a better chance for at least some of the jobs you're interested in. How much better? I'm not sure. I suspect that some—not all, but some—of the PI/Gov placement difference between YLS and Chi is due to self selection. I suggest taking up Emma's offer to discuss Chicago over PM.

Congrats on your amazing choices. And good luck.

[jbagelboy]

That's a tough one, WinterComing.

I think I'm slightly less debt-averse than the typical TLS'er, but I keep coming back to this:

Yale: No aid offer yet, but very likely to be $0; total COA would be about $300,000; loans would be about $150,000
Chicago: Rubenstein scholarship (full tuition plus stipend); total COA would be about $80,000; loans would be $0

So the COA difference between YLS and Chi is $220,000? That's a lot of money, particularly when you consider that the jobs you're interested in don't pay well. When you're out of law school and trying to build a life with your family, an extra $220,000 will mean a lot—probably more than you can appreciate at the moment.

I don't know. YLS will give you a better chance for at least some of the jobs you're interested in. How much better? I'm not sure. I suspect that some—not all, but some—of the PI/Gov placement difference between YLS and Chi is due to self selection. I suggest taking up Emma's offer to discuss Chicago over PM.

Congrats on your amazing choices. And good luck.

taking another look at this, how is that COA difference possible? Rubenstein provides for living expenses. So the COA should be closer to zero at Chicago. Isn't it more like $300k difference?

[pancakes3]

In trusting your math/savings, I think that even though the COA differential is massive, the loan differential is manageable enough to make YLS absolutely worth it. Personally I'm leaning towards HLS bc to me the benefits for you in choosing between H/Y/Ruby is marginal relative to the benefits of her choosing VP/new branch/new job search (but there's a catch 22 of needing you to choose a school before she can say for sure what opportunities are open to her - maybe Chicago will yield a dream job).

[WinterComing]

So the COA difference between YLS and Chi is $220,000?

Between tuition and the $15,000 per year stipend, the Ruby adds up to $215,000 (that number was provided by the school and I'm not sure whether it took into account paying taxes on the stipend, so give or take a little). I think my math is at least in the ballpark.

taking another look at this, how is that COA difference possible? Rubenstein provides for living expenses. So the COA should be closer to zero at Chicago. Isn't it more like $300k difference?

The Rubenstein provides $15,000 per year for living expenses, or $1,250 per month, probably more like $1,000 after taxes. That doesn't come close to covering the living expenses for a family of three (four if you count our greyhound). Just for rent and daycare, we're looking at $3,500 a month. Add in utilities, transportation, and food, and $80,000 for three years is low if anything.

[WinterComing]

Unless Boston >>> New Haven for your wife (which wasn't very clear in the OP), I don't think HLS is cost justified, and you'll get completely screwed by LIPP. The law school 'brand' talk is mostly just a TLS/aspie law student syndrome.

If what's best for my wife wasn't clear in the OP, it's because it's not entirely clear in real life. The job she might get in Boston pays double the job that she might keep if we went to New Haven. But it's unclear which of those would make her more happy. The Boston job might be really demanding, which might not be great for a new mom. But she might end up hating working remotely in New Haven. It's going to be a big disruption in any case, of course.

In trusting your math/savings, I think that even though the COA differential is massive, the loan differential is manageable enough to make YLS absolutely worth it. Personally I'm leaning towards HLS bc to me the benefits for you in choosing between H/Y/Ruby is marginal relative to the benefits of her choosing VP/new branch/new job search (but there's a catch 22 of needing you to choose a school before she can say for sure what opportunities are open to her - maybe Chicago will yield a dream job).

Catch 22 is right. It feels almost impossible for me to make a good decision, because there are so many variables. Not only can I not predict what job I will get after attending each school, but I can't predict the impact on my wife's career, either.

I have a ton of faith in her, so I suspect she'd end up with an absolutely killer job in Chicago, but I also know that if she went unemployed for a month or two and was miserable, I'd hate myself for it.