decision time... help needed Forum

[mabes]

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[trebekismyhero]

How much debt would you take to go to CLS?

I think debt free from UofM is the right choice

[GreenEggs]

You say you're open to Biglaw which means to me that you'll likely end up starting your career in biglaw. I think if that's the case no debt from UMich (especially if your parents then help cover your living expenses) is probably the way to go here. There's no reason to count the LRAP programs if you're likely not going to end up using them. Are you thinking about Cornell at all either?

[mabes]

How much debt would you take to go to CLS?

I think debt free from UofM is the right choice

probably between 150k - 180k of debt from CLS or NYU

You say you're open to Biglaw which means to me that you'll likely end up starting your career in biglaw. I think if that's the case no debt from UMich (especially if your parents then help cover your living expenses) is probably the way to go here. There's no reason to count the LRAP programs if you're likely not going to end up using them. Are you thinking about Cornell at all either?

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[NUDad]

Michigan. CLS/NYU not worth an additional $100K+.

[GreenEggs]

You say you're open to Biglaw which means to me that you'll likely end up starting your career in biglaw. I think if that's the case no debt from UMich (especially if your parents then help cover your living expenses) is probably the way to go here. There's no reason to count the LRAP programs if you're likely not going to end up using them. Are you thinking about Cornell at all either?

I think Biglaw is a really bad fit for me culturally, and I would only do it if I was convinced that due to my background as K-JD/undergrad institution that it would make a huge difference for my career. I'm confused about how people exit from biglaw to PI/gov't and it seems like a huge risk/gamble to me. I am open to splitting my 2L summer or ending up with a unique/oddball firm or a firm with tangible pathways via pro bono work into PI jobs. From my own research, these firms exist, but targeting them at OCI and then getting an offer isn't exactly a realistic strategy.

Also, it is possible to start in BigLaw and then go onto CLS's superior LRAP afterwards. You just have to pay down debt extremely aggressively while at the firm. But, point taken.

I confess Cornell has kinda fallen off my radar since ideally I want to be in a city, AND its not exactly shining for its PI reputation. But I should give it more consideration.

I don't mean to discourage or dissuade you, just want you to consider the likelihood of outcomes. I don't really think there's a huge difference between Ann Arbor and Ithaca in terms of size (they're more alike than either is alike to NYC), so I wouldn't cross it off the list for that reason.

I think you'll have more flexibility with your long term career, and more ability to take some risks with employment prospects with zero debt from Michigan than with having the extra 150k over your head

[fliptrip]

If you're writing that you're committed to PI and that you're open to biglaw in the same sentence, I'd say you need to keep your options open. That means you take Michigan for free. I'm not sure where you got your seemingly low opinion of the school from, but it seems damn good to me.

[somethingElse]

Deleted per request - too much speculation.

[krads153]

^Huh? So your post says you know nothing about a lot of stuff, but assume a ton of stuff...okay. Could 0Ls please refrain from guessing and posting ITT?

Anyway, I'm in biglaw and my spouse is a hiring attorney at a NYC non profit. I will say this much - a lot of PI attorneys may have to work for free for at least a little after graduation before getting a "full time offer" at a non profit. This is partly due to funding reasons (they get grant money yearly and don't know exactly what they will get for the following year, etc.). Sometimes they have to apply for funding just to support your position if they decide to take you on. So if you are taking out debt, that's not going to help. A lot of PI attorneys graduate debt free ( I don't care how many broke PI attorneys post on this board - frankly a bunch are trust fund kids). If you want to pursue PI, you should minimize debt. I've even recommended CUNY for that very reason if you are deadset on NYC PI (it's known as the NYC PI school - much more so than NYU) because of it's super cheap tuition, etc.

Also from what I know about CLS, it is not a PI school and doesn't have a lot of support for PI and it's an uphill battle if you want to pursue PI. NYU and Michigan have more support for PI. This is partly anecdotal, but it seems like the numbers suggest this as well.

[somethingElse]

^Huh? So your post says you know nothing about a lot of stuff, but assume a ton of stuff...okay. Could 0Ls please refrain from guessing and posting ITT?

Anyway, I'm in biglaw and my spouse is a hiring attorney at a NYC non profit. I will say this much - a lot of PI attorneys may have to work for free for at least a little while post graduating before getting a "full time offer" at a non profit. This is partly due to funding reasons (they get grant money yearly and don't know exactly what they will get for the following year, etc.). Sometimes they have to apply for funding just to support your position if they decide to take you on. So if you are taking out debt, that's not going to help. A lot of PI attorneys graduate debt free ( I don't care how many broke PI attorneys post on this board - frankly a bunch are trust fund kids). If you want to pursue PI, you should minimize debt. I've even recommended CUNY for that very reason if you are deadset on NYC PI (it's known as the NYC PI school - much more so than NYU) because of it's super cheap tuition, etc.

Fair enough - a lot of what I said is not guessing and is what I have been advised from practicing PI attorneys, but I deleted it nonetheless.

[mabes]

I don't mean to discourage or dissuade you, just want you to consider the likelihood of outcomes. I don't really think there's a huge difference between Ann Arbor and Ithaca in terms of size (they're more alike than either is alike to NYC), so I wouldn't cross it off the list for that reason.

I think you'll have more flexibility with your long term career, and more ability to take some risks with employment prospects with zero debt from Michigan than with having the extra 150k over your head

^Huh? So your post says you know nothing about a lot of stuff, but assume a ton of stuff...okay. Could 0Ls please refrain from guessing and posting ITT?

Anyway, I'm in biglaw and my spouse is a hiring attorney at a NYC non profit. I will say this much - a lot of PI attorneys may have to work for free for at least a little after graduation before getting a "full time offer" at a non profit. This is partly due to funding reasons (they get grant money yearly and don't know exactly what they will get for the following year, etc.). Sometimes they have to apply for funding just to support your position if they decide to take you on. So if you are taking out debt, that's not going to help. A lot of PI attorneys graduate debt free ( I don't care how many broke PI attorneys post on this board - frankly a bunch are trust fund kids). If you want to pursue PI, you should minimize debt. I've even recommended CUNY for that very reason if you are deadset on NYC PI (it's known as the NYC PI school - much more so than NYU) because of it's super cheap tuition, etc.

Also from what I know about CLS, it is not a PI school and doesn't have a lot of support for PI and it's an uphill battle if you want to pursue PI. NYU and Michigan have more support for PI. This is partly anecdotal, but it seems like the numbers suggest this as well.

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[Tls2016]

Please read this thread started today about issues with LRAP and IBR programs:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=262264

Summary: the company handling the certification process screws up and delays processing. That means you can lose months that should count towards qualifying payments as the job has to be certified every year.

Also, the loan amount keeps ballooning because your payments are so small compared to the debt. Someone estimated they will owe close to $1,000,000 by the time 10 years are done. In one year after graduation the loan balance increased by $50,000 from $220,000 to $270,000.

If you want to consider LRAP, you have to look at each schools plan carefully and discuss it with their experts. There is variance in all the plans and what they will cover.

[mabes]

Please read this thread started today about issues with LRAP and IBR programs:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=262264

Summary: the company handling the certification process screws up and delays processing. That means you can lose months that should count towards qualifying payments as the job has to be certified every year.

Also, the loan amount keeps ballooning because your payments are so small compared to the debt. Someone estimated they will owe close to $1,000,000 by the time 10 years are done. In one year after graduation the loan balance increased by $50,000 from $220,000 to $270,000.

If you want to consider LRAP, you have to look at each schools plan carefully and discuss it with their experts. There is variance in all the plans and what they will cover.

.

[trebekismyhero]

Michigan is a no brainer here. It is a PI focused school and and graduating without debt will give you so much more freedom to do what you want. I get wanting to be in NYC, but you can be there in the summers and it shouldn't be that hard to end up back there after law school.

It has already been said, CLS and NYU are great, but they're definitely not worth an extra $150k.

[krads153]

Also keep in mind schools can pretty much do whatever they want to their LRAPs while you are on it....so who the fuck knows what will change in the next 10-15 years. There's too much risk in my mind to take on six figure debt for PI. What is actually certain is graduating debt free.

[mabes]

Michigan is a no brainer here. It is a PI focused school and and graduating without debt will give you so much more freedom to do what you want. I get wanting to be in NYC, but you can be there in the summers and it shouldn't be that hard to end up back there after law school.

It has already been said, CLS and NYU are great, but they're definitely not worth an extra $150k.

Also keep in mind schools can pretty much do whatever they want to their LRAPs while you are on it....so who the fuck knows what will change in the next 10-15 years. There's too much risk in my mind to take on six figure debt for PI. What is actually certain is graduating debt free.

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[tyrant_flycatcher]

I'd take a closer look at Cornell. If I understand your financial situation correctly, you'd graduate from Cornell w/ no debt. Cornell places very well in NY and does alright in DC. AFAIK there is no PI community to speak of, but I've always thought that if I was PI-minded this would be an advantage. Maybe not in terms of an alumni network. But you'd get special attention from Career Services and like-minded faculty and you'd be one of three students competing for every PI fellowship and e-board position. I could be woefully misinformed but sometimes I think I would kill it here if I wanted PI work. It would be so easy to stand out.

[cron1834]

Michigan is a no brainer here. It is a PI focused school and and graduating without debt will give you so much more freedom to do what you want. I get wanting to be in NYC, but you can be there in the summers and it shouldn't be that hard to end up back there after law school.

It has already been said, CLS and NYU are great, but they're definitely not worth an extra $150k.

[krads153]

Michigan is a no brainer here. It is a PI focused school and and graduating without debt will give you so much more freedom to do what you want. I get wanting to be in NYC, but you can be there in the summers and it shouldn't be that hard to end up back there after law school.

It has already been said, CLS and NYU are great, but they're definitely not worth an extra $150k.

Also keep in mind schools can pretty much do whatever they want to their LRAPs while you are on it....so who the fuck knows what will change in the next 10-15 years. There's too much risk in my mind to take on six figure debt for PI. What is actually certain is graduating debt free.

yeah. i keep coming back to the idea that there are so many people coming out of CLS with big debt who have awesome careers, it not like it holds them back, but thats kind of a logical fallacy. im sure their careers are informed to some degree by choices around debt. I get that if I take on 6figure debt at CLS, I'm likely to end up feeling much greater pressure for BigLaw, and then my career is defined by whether or not I'm able to exit firm life for the kind of job I want.

I posted the link in the other thread, but the most recent info we have shows that 41% of Columbia's class graduates with no law school debt (at least no federal loans anyway); I think it's safe to assume that a hefty portion of Columbia, and generally T-14 grads (actually based on the info probably most law schools), are rich kids whose parents pay for everything.

The people who do have debt probably go into biglaw....

Edit: Here's the link http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+5

[mabes]

Michigan is a no brainer here. It is a PI focused school and and graduating without debt will give you so much more freedom to do what you want. I get wanting to be in NYC, but you can be there in the summers and it shouldn't be that hard to end up back there after law school.

It has already been said, CLS and NYU are great, but they're definitely not worth an extra $150k.

Also keep in mind schools can pretty much do whatever they want to their LRAPs while you are on it....so who the fuck knows what will change in the next 10-15 years. There's too much risk in my mind to take on six figure debt for PI. What is actually certain is graduating debt free.

.