Berkeley at $80K cost or state school's generous scholarship? Forum

[cathats]

OK, TLS, help me decide between two schools:

Berkeley w/ $75,000 in grants + little COL (rent free w/family in SF). Total cost estimate: $80,000 upon graduation (w/interest included).

Unnamed state school--easily the top law school in this state--with a 100% scholarship + a large gift aid grant for both COL and summer internships for all three years. No grade requirement to keep scholarship. This school ranks between 25-35 in US News.

State school is in a city that is a well-known and desirable city to live in, so the ranking of this state's very best law school has always mystified me. But I'm also debt adverse and I already worked for years in this city's legal field, so my state connections make me think this school could out work for me. I would be happy continuing to live here post-grad.

Berkeley needs no introduction, and I would love to live in SF. I have always been on a public interest pathway, but the idea of doing big law and making lots of money is exciting. I've had a variety of odd and out-there jobs in my life other than the legal field positions (extreme sports, etc.) and now that I'm at the ancient age of 30 I could picture myself settling down at a mundane desk job for several years with no problem as long as my paycheck was great. I won't be raising any kids post-grad, and I have a strong independent streak and rarely desire relationships, so no commitments there that could interfere with the long work hours that big law requires. I also have dreams of becoming a law professor after 10-15 years of work experience, and B would surely afford me a better pedigree than the state school.

I've done paralegal work in a variety of fields in several states, and after all of this exposure I am sure a law degree is the path I want to travel. FYI, I will not take the LSAT again. I was rejected from HYS and surprised myself by not really caring that much when I got those rejection emails. I also don't want to live in NYC or Chicago, and my LSAT is at Berkeley's 50%. If I improve on the LSAT, there wouldn't be any higher ranked school I would care about going to.

TLDR: Should I choose free law school at a 25-35 ranked school with a generous COL/internship grants? Or Berkeley at $80K and much safer and more diverse employment prospects?

*Please don't quote this original post* and thanks in advance for any advice!

[acr]

Berkeley holy shit

Although you're most likely underestimating your debt

Although not having to pay rent is a great perk that will offset some of the costs

[AT9]

Where is this other school? If it's across the country and in the city where you want to work long-term, it might be a better option. But Berkeley is probably the right answer regardless, especially if this other school is in some western state/on the pacific coast.

[krads153]

Berkeley, although you are underestimating the cost.

Also, what kind of life is there if you have no relationships/no hobbies?.......Just saying - you're probably talking out of your ass right now about not wanting anything that makes life even remotely interesting or worth living or any semblance of a real life....you will probably change your mind on that point.

[cathats]

Berkeley, although you are underestimating the cost.

I thought that could be the case...but I did calculate it at 6.8% interest and added in-state tuition after the first year. I also included some COL money that is not rent, along with transportation and books. So I think I am in the right ballpark? Then again, I am terrible at math...

Also, what kind of life is there if you have no relationships/no hobbies?.......Just saying - you're probably talking out of your ass right now about not wanting anything that makes life even remotely interesting or worth living or any semblance of a real life....you will probably change your mind on that point.

I have work-life balance which includes a few hobbies. As for relationships, I just strongly dislike dating longer than 3 months. What about it? : D

[cathats]

Would love to get a few more opinions on this before I bite the bullet!

[usernotfound]

80K for a T14 is generally a good investment if you're gunning for BigLaw. If you actually want BigLaw, a T14 is going to be FAR better at giving you the opportunity than a school ranked ~30.

[existentialcrisis]

Berkley for 80k is a pretty solid deal.

[timbs4339]

How are you calculating accrued interest?

[getemgoon]

Read ponderingmeerkat's post. One of the best posts I've seen on TLS.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p9242115

[jphiggo]

Come to B, you won't regret it.

[Clearly]

Prob B anyway, but jumping in to agree your calculus is way off.

[Tls2016]

Read ponderingmeerkat's post. One of the best posts I've seen on TLS.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p9242115

Is pondering meerkat even in law school?
That is a post that I strongly disagree with.
Advising a debt averse person to take on massive debt because they don't know at 22 what they might want at 32 is possibly the worst advice anyone can give on this site. It ignores and minimizes persons stated values to avoid debt and avoid living in a large city because pondering meerkat assumes that OP will change their mind.

[Specter1389]

Read ponderingmeerkat's post. One of the best posts I've seen on TLS.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p9242115

Is pondering meerkat even in law school?
That is a post that I strongly disagree with.
Advising a debt averse person to take on massive debt because they don't know at 22 what they might want at 32 is possibly the worst advice anyone can give on this site. It ignores and minimizes persons stated values to avoid debt and avoid living in a large city because pondering meerkat assumes that OP will change their mind.

While some may think his assessment is bad advice, others might find it helpful. I know I did. He may be a 0L, but he has a lot of life experience Additionally, his wife attends a T-14, so he has an educated opinion based off his and his wife's experiences. Things change. Three years ago I was in pilot training before doctors found a medical condition that disqualified me. Law school was not even on my radar and I thought I had my career/life planned out. His point is valid in that you don't know where you will be/what your priorities will be in the future and having flexibility is always a plus. Granted, having $0 law school debt provides a lot of financial flexibility. But $150k in debt from Duke (as was the case in the thread pondering meerkat responded to) or $80k in debt from Berkeley in this case are not death sentences by any means and can be paid off even in a secondary market if you budget right. I was in a similar situation trying to decide between my state school at a full ride or a T-14 at about $150k in debt and ultimately decided to attend the T-14 despite my high level of debt aversion.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Read ponderingmeerkat's post. One of the best posts I've seen on TLS.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p9242115

Is pondering meerkat even in law school?
That is a post that I strongly disagree with.
Advising a debt averse person to take on massive debt because they don't know at 22 what they might want at 32 is possibly the worst advice anyone can give on this site. It ignores and minimizes persons stated values to avoid debt and avoid living in a large city because pondering meerkat assumes that OP will change their mind.

Not sure why attending law school is a prerequisite for effectively evaluating life decisions such as future family planning, management of life's inherent chaos, strategic positioning of career options, etc. These are issues every professional manages.

But, to address your concerns, my spouse is a 3L at a T14, so we've been dealing with these very questions for years, both as partners and within our social circle. I will be applying to law school next cycle with much more knowledge and life-experience than your standard, one-each, K-JD 0L. And, I'm happy to share what has been learned over the last 4-5 years despite flippant dismissals by low-T, passive-aggressive, internet trolls.

Ad hominems aside and onto strawmen: no one is suggesting people ignore debt or summarily dismissing individual values/preferences. Period. But, the reason we ask for feedback on this forum is to gather opinions and perspectives that are different than our own. I provided those to the OP in the other thread as requested. My suggestion is to balance career opportunities against COA...going pure-prestige or pure-debt-avoidance is a recipe for disaster. I've been lurking TLS long enough to see the orthodoxy swing from pure-prestige to pure-debt-avoidance around here. I'm not sure why we can't find the middle ground. The idea of passing on $80K to Berkeley when compared to a TT option is simply mind-boggling to me, and stands as evidence we've gone too far in this hyper-conservative approach on this board.

Somewhere between passing up a full-ride at Texas for sticker at GULC and passing on Harvard with $ for Cooley full-ride is the right balance. Strawmaning this conversation in either direction is a disservice to those who need a broad scaffolding of different perspectives to assist the construction of an important life decision.

[getemgoon]

Read ponderingmeerkat's post. One of the best posts I've seen on TLS.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p9242115

Is pondering meerkat even in law school?
That is a post that I strongly disagree with.
Advising a debt averse person to take on massive debt because they don't know at 22 what they might want at 32 is possibly the worst advice anyone can give on this site. It ignores and minimizes persons stated values to avoid debt and avoid living in a large city because pondering meerkat assumes that OP will change their mind.

Not sure why attending law school is a prerequisite for effectively evaluating life decisions such as future family planning, management of life's inherent chaos, strategic positioning of career options, etc. These are issues every professional manages.

But, to address your concerns, my spouse is a 3L at a T14, so we've been dealing with these very questions for years, both as partners and within our social circle. I will be applying to law school next cycle with much more knowledge and life-experience than your standard, one-each, K-JD 0L. And, I'm happy to share what has been learned over the last 4-5 years despite flippant dismissals by low-T, passive-aggressive, internet trolls.

Ad hominems aside and onto strawmen: no one is suggesting people ignore debt or summarily dismissing individual values/preferences. Period. But, the reason we ask for feedback on this forum is to gather opinions and perspectives that are different than our own. I provided those to the OP in the other thread as requested. My suggestion is to balance career opportunities against COA...going pure-prestige or pure-debt-avoidance is a recipe for disaster. I've been lurking TLS long enough to see the orthodoxy swing from pure-prestige to pure-debt-avoidance around here. I'm not sure why we can't find the middle ground. The idea of passing on $80K to Berkeley when compared to a TT option is simply mind-boggling to me, and stands as evidence we've gone too far in this hyper-conservative approach on this board.

Somewhere between passing up a full-ride at Texas for sticker at GULC and passing on Harvard with $ for Cooley full-ride is the right balance. Strawmaning this conversation in either direction is a disservice to those who need a broad scaffolding of different perspectives to assist the construction of an important life decision.

preach

[Rigo]

Berkeley.

[DELG]

No plans to have kids or meaningful relationships, wow, how could you squander such a perfectly suited temperament for biglaw

[cron1834]

That's a fair cost for Berk, tho your lack of specifics re: job preference and unsolicited weirdness about relationships make me wonder about taking on any debt at all. Can you out the second school?

[cathats]

Prob B anyway, but jumping in to agree your calculus is way off.

I added up B's full-tuition (with 2nd and 3rd years at in-state rates), deducted my $25K/year grant from that tuition amount, then used an online student loan calculator at 6% interest, and I also took note of the disbursement times for loan amounts. I threw in several thousand for books, food, and extras each year. I'm not going to be paying rent. What am I missing?

[cathats]

That's a fair cost for Berk, tho your lack of specifics re: job preference and unsolicited weirdness about relationships make me wonder about taking on any debt at all. Can you out the second school?

krads123 solicited my relationship "weirdness", although I like to think of it as "being practical and independent". I read through a ton of threads before posting, and TLS'ers seem to always chime in with concerns about maintaining marriages and family duties while doing big law, so I thought I'd lay it out up front that I am not interested in those things before someone chimed in to tell me how much big law will wreck havoc on my life. Alas, it happened anyways : D

Don't want to out the second school, sorry.

[Ridonkulous1]

Based on your description of the state school, it really seems like you're talking about UW. If you have a desire to live/work in Seattle, then the reputational difference between UW and Berkeley may not be worth the additional $80k in COA (or more). If you leave the Seattle area to go to B, then some firms may question your commitment to practice in the area. The Seattle firms that I've spoken with tend to be suspicious about outsiders wanting to practice in Seattle and defensive about the quality of UW. Of course, given that you've worked there for several years, this suspicion may be lessened.

If you're indifferent about practicing in Seattle versus practicing in the Bay Area, or you would prefer to practice in the Bay Area, Berkeley seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Of course, if you're not talking about UW then disregard