Harvard (sticker), NU ($$$$), Cornell ($$$$), Michigan ($$$), or UVA ($$$) Forum

[glitterypurple]

Edit: removed. Thanks so much everyone for your input!

[Tiago Splitter]

I'd just take your favorite among the no-debt options. If your goal is to not get stuck working NYC biglaw to pay down your loans (a very reasonable goal) then Harvard needs to be out.

[fliptrip]

I'd just take your favorite among the no-debt options.

+1. This is the same as asking should you eat Vanilla, Strawberry, or Mint Chocolate Chip Ice Cream. It's whatever you'd like. Though for someone who doesn't want to deal with rough weather, I'm surprised we don't see Stanford, Duke, or Berkeley here.

[WinterComing]

If you get the Levy and that makes Penn a no debt option, that seems like a great way to go.

[glitterypurple]

Edit: Removed. Thanks everyone for your input!

[Tiago Splitter]

To clarify, I am planning to go the big law route, just not in NYC (I hope). It's too big and too expensive of a city for me. I would be okay with almost any other city along the east coast--just not that one.

I understand, but with your goals New York needs to be a realistic possibility, especially if you graduate with 150k debt. Somewhere around 40% of biglaw summer associate positions are in NYC.

[fliptrip]

OP, I have prepared a complex and sophisticated grid to help you:



You pretty clearly want no part of NYC, so we're really talking about this:



I even added some NPV calculations for you so you can see what kind of value you're looking at from at least one sense.

What all this leads back to is where we started. This is all about personal preference. If you really like Michigan, then get thee to Ann Arbor.

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

Not trying to sway your choice at all but there are great housing options at HLS that are a 10-20 minute walk from the law school (or a 5 min bike ride).

Also, as I see some of my 3L friends decide not to law at all and line up management consulting, finance, or non-legal in house jobs. I think it needs to be said there's a lot of flexibility at HLS. Whether or no that's worth $150K is a very personal decision.

Finally, HLS is big, for sure, but it's not like you're out there in a big city with no nucleus. Your first year, your 1L section defines HLS for you (also, any other groups you join) From there you'll always be meeting new people in 2/3L and I've enjoyed that.

It doesnt seem like you can really lose in whatever decision you make. Congrats

...oh, and New York isnt your only option. Going to HLS makes you a lock for Boston big law.

[fliptrip]

Also, as I see some of my 3L friends decide not to law at all and line up management consulting, finance, or non-legal in house jobs. I think it needs to be said there's a lot of flexibility at HLS.

Shouldn't this come with a little disclaimer, namely, you better be really good at math and it sure helps if you were an econ or some other "hard" major in undergrad?

[glitterypurple]

Edit: Removed. Thanks everyone for your input!

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

Also, as I see some of my 3L friends decide not to law at all and line up management consulting, finance, or non-legal in house jobs. I think it needs to be said there's a lot of flexibility at HLS.

Shouldn't this come with a little disclaimer, namely, you better be really good at math and it sure helps if you were an econ or some other "hard" major in undergrad?

Lolno. Regarding finance, between classes like Modeling and Valuing LBOs and M&A Transactions, Analytical Methods, a few others, the classes available to you at the Business school, and the connections through Harvard Association of Law and Business you can get there in a semester.

And the Management Consulting folks give near zero fucks about background. They've been aggressive about the fact that they'll teach JDs everything they need when they start as confirmed by someone I know who graduated last year and had a liberal arts background.

[Tiago Splitter]

...oh, and New York isnt your only option. Going to HLS makes you a lock for Boston big law.

Sure, but then you cross off a huge number of firms while not really improving anything. You're still stuck in a crowded, expensive city working long hours to pay off your 150k in debt.

FWIW I think Harvard's ability to place broadly is worth some real money for this OP, I just wouldn't put it anywhere near 150k (plus tens of thousands more in interest).

[fliptrip]

^^^In my MBB days, you needed to be pretty good at math to survive the interviews, but I'll let that one go and totally affirm that they are totally interested and comfortable hiring HLS folks. I definitely think that's an HLS and possibly SLS specific thing though.

[Hikikomorist]

^^^In my MBB days, you needed to be pretty good at math to survive the interviews, but I'll let that one go and totally affirm that they are totally interested and comfortable hiring HLS folks. I definitely think that's an HLS and possibly SLS specific thing though.

Yeah, but wasn't that more about being reasonably smart/prepared than being formally trained?

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

^^^In my MBB days, you needed to be pretty good at math to survive the interviews, but I'll let that one go and totally affirm that they are totally interested and comfortable hiring HLS folks. I definitely think that's an HLS and possibly SLS specific thing though.

Yeah, but wasn't that more about being reasonably smart/prepared than being formally trained?

Unless you mean formally trained as econ/math majors....

HLS and SLS don't get you MBB on their own - it's all about how you do in case studies (which honestly, people have to prep for on top of usually being business/econ/math majors and quant minded).

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Also if you're graduating with no debt, why bother doing biglaw at all? It's awful and the exit ops aren't that good (usually to similarly shitty jobs and/or you don't quality for good jobs).

[fliptrip]

^^^In my MBB days, you needed to be pretty good at math to survive the interviews, but I'll let that one go and totally affirm that they are totally interested and comfortable hiring HLS folks. I definitely think that's an HLS and possibly SLS specific thing though.

Yeah, but wasn't that more about being reasonably smart/prepared than being formally trained?

Unless you mean formally trained as econ/math majors....

HLS and SLS don't get you MBB on their own - it's all about how you do in case studies (which honestly, people have to prep for on top of usually being business/econ/math majors and quant minded).

No you don't need to be an econ or math major, but you have to survive the case based interview which you can learn how to do. But, if you struggle to do math well in your head, you're going to have a hell of a hard time. You will still have to probably go take some kind of non-poetry classes at your b-school and do well in order to have the best shot. If you can go take finance and micro, those will do more than enough to prove your chops.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

^^^In my MBB days, you needed to be pretty good at math to survive the interviews, but I'll let that one go and totally affirm that they are totally interested and comfortable hiring HLS folks. I definitely think that's an HLS and possibly SLS specific thing though.

Yeah, but wasn't that more about being reasonably smart/prepared than being formally trained?

Unless you mean formally trained as econ/math majors....

HLS and SLS don't get you MBB on their own - it's all about how you do in case studies (which honestly, people have to prep for on top of usually being business/econ/math majors and quant minded).

No you don't need to be an econ or math major, but you have to survive the case based interview which you can learn how to do. But, if you struggle to do math well in your head, you're going to have a hell of a hard time. You will still have to probably go take some kind of non-poetry classes at your b-school and do well in order to have the best shot. If you can go take finance and micro, those will do more than enough to prove your chops.

Isn't it just basic probability? Like from high school AP stats? Anyway, it's not really related to micro IMO....

[fliptrip]

Micro underpins every critical concept in business. To suck at micro raises serious issues about how well you'll do understanding business. Remember the MBA is not what one would call a rigorous degree, but there are a few classes that separate the wheat from the chaff and the king of them is micro.

[existentialcrisis]

OP, I have prepared a complex and sophisticated grid to help you:

I even added some NPV calculations for you so you can see what kind of value you're looking at from at least one sense.

What all this leads back to is where we started. This is all about personal preference. If you really like Michigan, then get thee to Ann Arbor.

I'm not entirely sure that Michigan or UVA would really help the OP avoid NYC. OP is from the midwest, and presumably should be able to get home from any of these schools. I would assume that Northwestern would open up Chicago as an option, so that's something worth thinking about.

But what markets is UVA going to open up? I can confidently say that she would have a very tough time selling herself to Richmond firms. I would think that the same would hold true for other markets in the south (i.e. Atlanta). It seems like some people seem to think UVA has an advantage in DC, but I question the validity of that, as I'd be willing to bet that self-selection is a huge factor there. DC is very grade-selective from any non HYS school. If she really wanted DC I would tell her to go to HLS.

I'm not sure about Michigan either. Presumably Michigan's main advantage would be opening up the midwest, but OP already has strong ties there. I was under the impression that Chicago firms were pretty ties sensitive for non NW/Chicago students, but I could be wrong about this? It could be that Chicago firms are still willing to hire Michigan students without Chicago specific ties?

Edit: That being said, if OP prefers small towns, then I suppose that's a solid reason to choose Michigan or UVA. Preference for where you'll spend 3 years shouldn't be the biggest consideration when picking schools, but it is certainly worth something.

[fliptrip]

I've always thought of UVA as giving a shot at getting to DC, but beyond that, I can't disagree with you. I also confess that I have the shallowest of shallow knowledge about the mechanics of placement at schools. Always happy to learn more about the details, though.

[existentialcrisis]

I've always thought of UVA as giving a shot at getting to DC, but beyond that, I can't disagree with you. I also confess that I have the shallowest of shallow knowledge about the mechanics of placement at schools. Always happy to learn more about the details, though.

DC firms care a lot about grades. The summer classes there are far smaller than in NY and a lot of people want DC, so they can afford to be selective. The DC firms with the biggest classes are also some of the very most grade selective firms in the country. I think generally the advice for most T14s is not to bid DC heavily unless you have tippy top grades.

There are certainly a lot of UVA alums in DC and its possible they might favor their own slightly. But, UVA places ~20 percent of its grads in DC, and I'd be willing to bet that this number heavily captures a large portion of the top students in the class. The bottom line is that I would not go to UVA counting on landing DC big law. On the other hand, I would think that NYC big law would be a decently safe bet, as would OP's home market.

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

i go to NU on a scholarship just about the same as what you were offered. i had substantially similar offers (see link in profile) save for a waitlist at harvard. i also am very debt averse.

i think your two best options are NU or harvard. i think paying 150k, even as a debt averse person, justifies harvard, and i would probably go to harvard for that reason. i think if as a 65 year old you asked yourself whether you would've paid an extra 150k for a harvard degree over a NU degree the answer would be obvious. 150k is vanishingly miniscule considering you will likely earn a lot of money over the next 40 years. think something like 4k per year + interest.

with that said, i'm happy with my choice to go to NU. like me, you'll get paid to go to a t14, which is awesome. you can go out to eat and drink and not give a shit about debt. and i must say, it makes going into 1st semester finals a lot less stressful knowing that if shit hits the fan you won't be shackled to debt. it's incredibly nice to know that once u go into biglaw, all of that extra money is going into a 401k that will compound into literal millions by the time u retire early (if u save). this perhaps is an equally strong, if not stronger, argument to go to NU. the biglaw placement is pretty good -- if you're top 60-70% you're pretty much, per our hiring numbers, guaranteed a biglaw job.

furthermore, a recent study (can't find link) shows that as little as 30k debt can impact your retirement savings by 300k, a figure ten times higher than the debt itself. that's insane, cuts against my harvard comments, and should be factored into your analysis.

[jnwa]

i go to NU on a scholarship just about the same as what you were offered. i had substantially similar offers (see link in profile) save for a waitlist at harvard. i also am very debt averse.

i think your two best options are NU or harvard. i think paying 150k, even as a debt averse person, justifies harvard, and i would probably go to harvard for that reason. i think if as a 65 year old you asked yourself whether you would've paid an extra 150k for a harvard degree over a NU degree the answer would be obvious. 150k is vanishingly miniscule considering you will likely earn a lot of money over the next 40 years. think something like 4k per year + interest.

with that said, i'm happy with my choice to go to NU. like me, you'll get paid to go to a t14, which is awesome. you can go out to eat and drink and not give a shit about debt. and i must say, it makes going into 1st semester finals a lot less stressful knowing that if shit hits the fan you won't be shackled to debt. it's incredibly nice to know that once u go into biglaw, all of that extra money is going into a 401k that will compound into literal millions by the time u retire early (if u save). this perhaps is an equally strong, if not stronger, argument to go to NU. the biglaw placement is pretty good -- if you're top 60-70% you're pretty much, per our hiring numbers, guaranteed a biglaw job.

furthermore, a recent study (can't find link) shows that as little as 30k debt can impact your retirement savings by 300k, a figure ten times higher than the debt itself. that's insane, cuts against my harvard comments, and should be factored into your analysis.

Your argument for taking the money is much much much more compelling than your 65 year old me argument lol. I really hope 65 year old me doesnt spend time contemplating school choice and focuses on more appropriate old people pursuits like ranting about how kids these days have it too easy.

One point i did wanna make about the whole t3 thing is that you essentially have to do really well at those schools to justify the debt. If you finish median at Harvard and end up doing biglaw with 150k in debt, youd surely be better off being median at Northwestern and getting a job at a v50 with no debt instead of a v20 with the 150k.

Even the people have the unicorn goals, prestigious clerkships, academia etc all have to finish near the top at HYS to get them failure to do that and youre back at the v20 with 150k debt. I guess theres something to be said for shooting for the stars/following your dreams and all that jazz.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

i think your two best options are NU or harvard. i think paying 150k, even as a debt averse person, justifies harvard, and i would probably go to harvard for that reason. i think if as a 65 year old you asked yourself whether you would've paid an extra 150k for a harvard degree over a NU degree the answer would be obvious. 150k is vanishingly miniscule considering you will likely earn a lot of money over the next 40 years. think something like 4k per year + interest.

If you're 65 and still thinking about school prestige, you should just die from dementia already.

The main "prestige' factor in the real world is generally how much money you have, not where you went to school. And if you spend your entire life comparing yourself with other people, you will never win or be happy.