NYU ($) vs. Columbia vs. Northwestern ($$$) vs. Berkeley vs. Duke vs Michigan ($$) Forum

[we'rebothmenofthelaw]

I don't really know if I used the dollar signs correctly and will list specific numbers. Anyway, I'm interested in going into civil legal services and then transitioning out after 5-10 years (or more) to public policy, government, or academic work (not looking for a tenure track job but maybe directing a law school legal clinic or a part time gig as a lecturer while doing other stuff).

NYU is offering 15K a year.
Michigan 30K a year.
Northwestern 50K a year.
I haven't heard from Duke, Berkeley, or Columbia yet on money yet.
Riding waitlists at Chicago, Penn, Georgetown, and Harvard; waiting on Yale and Stanford.
Still inexplicably undefeated (no rejections yet!)

There's certainly a case for Northwestern. I expect to have some family help paying for LS and my family is in the Chicago area (I wouldn't live at home but living near home cuts down on some costs), so I could conceivably graduate from Northwestern with negligible or no debt. The reputation for public interest work is kind of meh, but I have highly relevant work experience and think that I could pull off getting a first job and making it rain (in the civil legal services sense) from there. Also, I have thought for a while about trying to get back to Chicago to be near family and this might be my best shot in the foreseeable future.

I'm basically not interested in Duke unless they give me huge money or relocate.

Michigan has appeal. I have extended family in Ann Arbor and Detroit plus immediate family in Chicago, and I grew up a Michigan fan and could live out some football fantasies made latent by my stupid Ivy League undergraduate experience. Plus I could do this when I announce. (http://espn.go.com/college-sports/recru ... ashan-gary) At the end of the day, though, this just seems like a worse version of the Northwestern route given the financial outlook.

I've always loved Berkeley and think it would be fun to live in California for a bit. Gonna have to see what the money looks like, but unless it's a number like Northwestern's, it's going to fall into the lump of debt-is-irrelevant-because-I'm-doing-LRAP (see below).

That leaves Columbia and NYU, which are my leading choices as things stand. Both promise astronomical debt, but both have amazing LRAP programs. I think I'm enough of a purist and a realist that I will actually stick with legal services or similar work for the full 10 years (and beyond), but both of their programs offer really solid deals to people who only stick it out for 5-7 years or whatever. I'm not convinced that the difference in prestige or whatever from these schools versus any of the others on the list will make a difference as far as legal services work, but it could make a difference for phase two of my imagined career. I have a lot of friends in New York, so that's a a factor. On the flip side, I'd hate to get stuck in New York and try to make it on a legal services lawyer's salary. The nice thing about these schools (and probably all the schools on this list) is that they have enough of a national reputation that I could be competitive for jobs anywhere.

So here are a few questions I have in making this decision:

1. Am I wrong to treat cost so lightly because I'm counting on LRAP programs? Is there something I'm missing? I'm in a fortunate situation because I come from a financially secure family (not drop a quarter mil on my LS education rich, but at least I'm not worried about supporting them and could even rely on them if something crazy happened).

2. NYU has a stronger reputation for PI than Columbia, their numbers for clinic spots are better, and more of their grads go into PI work than Columbia's meaning a stronger network. Columbia's LRAP is slightly better. I worry a little bit that RTK skews NYU's numbers and reputation a little bit (if you took away the people contractually obligated to go into PI work they would have similar employment stats comparable to Columbia's), but that it basically irrelevant because non-RTK people can still benefit from the networks and communities built by RTK folks. I've also heard that as amazing as RTK is for its students, NYU still takes care of the rest of its PI folks. Can anyone shed light on the NYU vs. Columbia for public interest debate beyond the numbers I mentioned? Comments specifically related to civil legal services (especially housing and public benefits) particularly welcome.

3. I'm interested in clerking but not married to the idea. I figure that is where Columbia and NYU shine a bit, but I'm sure if I stood out at NU or any of the places on this list I'd be competitive.

4. I would like to try to do some credential-building for the public policy portion of my career while in law school. Any thoughts on who has the best research/publishing opportunities on this list and if any of these places are vastly different in terms of the credential? Especially interested in health policy, bioethics, and disability policy.


All comments and thoughts very welcome, but if you're going to say "NU because of money" please please please try to respond to question 1.

Thanks!!

[Tls2016]

How much will you actually owe at graduation from these schools? Without any aid, Columbia is over $300,000. I don't know about the rest. Northwestern is $83,000 next year for COA, if you have to borrow $33,000 or so to make up the difference, you will still owe $100,000.
You can see that you need to calculate how much you will owe at graduation to make these decisions.

What exactly do you mean by civil legal services? Would you consider any public interest work or just legal aid?

[we'rebothmenofthelaw]

Not exactly sure how much I'll owe because my parents aren't set on how much they're able to chip in. It's possible it's in the ballpark of the difference between COA and scholarship for Northwestern, although we'd probably work out something different if I went to a more costly option. That is, we'd avoid them paying anything that could just as easily be discharged through LRAP.

Civil legal services is generally understood as the provision of representation and legal advice to people living in poverty in non-criminal matters. Housing, public benefits, and family law are usually core practices with some places also doing employment, health law, and debt-related work. Other things come up too. I'm not 100% committed to that exactly, but I'm pretty sure it's what I want to do.

[Tls2016]

Not exactly sure how much I'll owe because my parents aren't set on how much they're able to chip in. It's possible it's in the ballpark of the difference between COA and scholarship for Northwestern, although we'd probably work out something different if I went to a more costly option. That is, we'd avoid them paying anything that could just as easily be discharged through LRAP.

Civil legal services is generally understood as the provision of representation and legal advice to people living in poverty in non-criminal matters. Housing, public benefits, and family law are usually core practices with some places also doing employment, health law, and debt-related work. Other things come up too. I'm not 100% committed to that exactly, but I'm pretty sure it's what I want to do.

You could assume that you will owe the maximum after scholarship for decision purposes. (Or even better get a commitment from your parents as to what they will cover.) Can you live with owing $300,000 for an education if you go to Columbia?

My question about the work you want to do goes to whether you will be in public interest law even if you don't get a job specifically in legal aid. It only matters to be sure you would qualify for LRAP.

[we'rebothmenofthelaw]

I can live with owing that amount or, more likely, 10 good years of my life. Or some reaonable combo of the two under their program's rules.

Good point on restrictions. In people's experience, what are the low wage idealistic careers that don't qualify? Labor law seems like one example but curious what some others are in people's experience. Again, pretty solid on legal services but it would be nice to keep options open.

[DELG]

This may sound odd coming from someone with so much debt, but owing a ton of money and having to spend so much time worried about staying in qualifying jobs might be more stressful/limiting than you think.

Also, I will have to break out my NU boosterism to point out that NU has fewer PI "purists" but still tons of PI oriented clinical opportunities, giving you more chances to be close to great clinical professors and do resume-boosting work in law school.

I think work done in law school is pretty underrated by applicants, especially for PI. Being in a major city, and better yet, the city where you hope to land, could go a long way to landing that first post law school job.

[Tls2016]

If you are going to rely on LRAP be very careful to understand the program before you accept.
Northwestern's plan requires you to have a qualifying job immediately upon graduation. I am not certain what that means in a practical sense, but if you graduate unemployed, as PI lawyers often do, you may not qualify. In addition, they cover only the first five years of unpaid interest. It's complicated.

I agree Northwestern is a good choice for you. Just be certain to understand the LRAP program from each school. You need to speak directly to their experts.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... naid/lrap/

[Budfox55]

If you are going to rely on LRAP be very careful to understand the program before you accept.
Northwestern's plan requires you to have a qualifying job immediately upon graduation. I am not certain what that means in a practical sense, but if you graduate unemployed, as PI lawyers often do, you may not qualify. In addition, they cover only the first five years of unpaid interest. It's complicated.

I agree Northwestern is a good choice for you. Just be certain to understand the LRAP program from each school. You need to speak directly to their experts.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... naid/lrap/

NU has a program that helps a little with your debt by paying your interest for 2 years if you're unemployed or in a job that pays less than 90k called the Interest Freedom Program. Seems like you would have to still make the loan payment, but at least its something.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... onaid/ifp/

[fliptrip]

One great thing about the Northwestern LRAP is that you don't have to be practicing law. You qualify if you work for a 501c3, whether or not that 501c3 does legal work at all. That provides for some nice flexibility. To compare, I'd say it looks comparable to Michigan's program in that it has some provision to help you with your unpaid interest while you're in the program.

I don't think there's any need to overthink this. Go ahead and choose Northwestern.

[RZ5646]

If you are going to rely on LRAP be very careful to understand the program before you accept.
Northwestern's plan requires you to have a qualifying job immediately upon graduation. I am not certain what that means in a practical sense, but if you graduate unemployed, as PI lawyers often do, you may not qualify. In addition, they cover only the first five years of unpaid interest. It's complicated.

I agree Northwestern is a good choice for you. Just be certain to understand the LRAP program from each school. You need to speak directly to their experts.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... naid/lrap/

This... not all LRAPs are created equal. Read the fine print before chaining yourself to six-figure debt.

[TheKisSquared]

If you are going to rely on LRAP be very careful to understand the program before you accept.
Northwestern's plan requires you to have a qualifying job immediately upon graduation. I am not certain what that means in a practical sense, but if you graduate unemployed, as PI lawyers often do, you may not qualify. In addition, they cover only the first five years of unpaid interest. It's complicated.

I agree Northwestern is a good choice for you. Just be certain to understand the LRAP program from each school. You need to speak directly to their experts.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... naid/lrap/

This... not all LRAPs are created equal. Read the fine print before chaining yourself to six-figure debt.

Has anyone put together a good break down/comparison (perhaps even a fancy spreadsheet?) comparing LRAP programs at T14s? I've been searching through TLS and either my keywords are failing me or it doesn't exist.

[Tls2016]

I think there was an old one but I don't think there is a recent one with all the changes since IBR became required.

[RZ5646]

If you are going to rely on LRAP be very careful to understand the program before you accept.
Northwestern's plan requires you to have a qualifying job immediately upon graduation. I am not certain what that means in a practical sense, but if you graduate unemployed, as PI lawyers often do, you may not qualify. In addition, they cover only the first five years of unpaid interest. It's complicated.

I agree Northwestern is a good choice for you. Just be certain to understand the LRAP program from each school. You need to speak directly to their experts.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... naid/lrap/

This... not all LRAPs are created equal. Read the fine print before chaining yourself to six-figure debt.

Has anyone put together a good break down/comparison (perhaps even a fancy spreadsheet?) comparing LRAP programs at T14s? I've been searching through TLS and either my keywords are failing me or it doesn't exist.

I haven't seen such a comparison, but one is desperately needed. You can find school-specific descriptions and criticisms on TLS, but they aren't organized, and nobody has attempted a comprehensive comparison.

This fragmentary knowledge hinders productive discourse. A prospective student asks TLS for advice about a certain school's LRAP and receives either vague, half-right advice about LRAP / federal forgiveness programs in general or irrelevant information about other schools' programs.

[Mullens]

Northwestern has done a lot in the last two years to bolster its Public Interest opportunities. The school has 10 post-grad fellowships for public interest, has guaranteed $8000 grants for public interest work (that can be topped off to $10,000 with service hours), and will pay for you to attend clerkship interviews and public interest interviews/fairs. That fewer people are interested in PI opens up a lot more chances to get fellowships

[TheKisSquared]

If you are going to rely on LRAP be very careful to understand the program before you accept.
Northwestern's plan requires you to have a qualifying job immediately upon graduation. I am not certain what that means in a practical sense, but if you graduate unemployed, as PI lawyers often do, you may not qualify. In addition, they cover only the first five years of unpaid interest. It's complicated.

I agree Northwestern is a good choice for you. Just be certain to understand the LRAP program from each school. You need to speak directly to their experts.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... naid/lrap/

This... not all LRAPs are created equal. Read the fine print before chaining yourself to six-figure debt.

Has anyone put together a good break down/comparison (perhaps even a fancy spreadsheet?) comparing LRAP programs at T14s? I've been searching through TLS and either my keywords are failing me or it doesn't exist.

I haven't seen such a comparison, but one is desperately needed. You can find school-specific descriptions and criticisms on TLS, but they aren't organized, and nobody has attempted a comprehensive comparison.

This fragmentary knowledge hinders productive discourse. A prospective student asks TLS for advice about a certain school's LRAP and receives either vague, half-right advice about LRAP / federal forgiveness programs in general or irrelevant information about other schools' programs.

What I'm hearing is I should clear my Saturday.

[Hikikomorist]

I don't think there's any need to overthink this. Go ahead and choose Northwestern.

[Tls2016]

If you are going to rely on LRAP be very careful to understand the program before you accept.
Northwestern's plan requires you to have a qualifying job immediately upon graduation. I am not certain what that means in a practical sense, but if you graduate unemployed, as PI lawyers often do, you may not qualify. In addition, they cover only the first five years of unpaid interest. It's complicated.

I agree Northwestern is a good choice for you. Just be certain to understand the LRAP program from each school. You need to speak directly to their experts.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... naid/lrap/

This... not all LRAPs are created equal. Read the fine print before chaining yourself to six-figure debt.

Has anyone put together a good break down/comparison (perhaps even a fancy spreadsheet?) comparing LRAP programs at T14s? I've been searching through TLS and either my keywords are failing me or it doesn't exist.

I haven't seen such a comparison, but one is desperately needed. You can find school-specific descriptions and criticisms on TLS, but they aren't organized, and nobody has attempted a comprehensive comparison.

This fragmentary knowledge hinders productive discourse. A prospective student asks TLS for advice about a certain school's LRAP and receives either vague, half-right advice about LRAP / federal forgiveness programs in general or irrelevant information about other schools' programs.

What I'm hearing is I should clear my Saturday.

The thing is that each person needs to talk to each schools experts. It isn't possible to know all of the nuances of the plans.
I agree a basic chart is a place to start, but an individual can't rely on it for their unique situation.
In another thread someone posted about being informed by Michigan that $60,000 of debt was too low to qualify for their LRAP. Nothing on their website explains that clearly, it may be because the debt to income is too low for IBR. I couldn't figure that one out. There are complexities to every situation.
Another example is Northwesterns requirement that you have a job immediately open graduation. What does that mean exactly? A lot of PI jobs are waiting for funding, or bar passage, and don't start immediately. I would hesitate to rely on a plan that required immediate employment for a PI job without getting clarification on that rule.

[TheKisSquared]

If you are going to rely on LRAP be very careful to understand the program before you accept.
Northwestern's plan requires you to have a qualifying job immediately upon graduation. I am not certain what that means in a practical sense, but if you graduate unemployed, as PI lawyers often do, you may not qualify. In addition, they cover only the first five years of unpaid interest. It's complicated.

I agree Northwestern is a good choice for you. Just be certain to understand the LRAP program from each school. You need to speak directly to their experts.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... naid/lrap/

This... not all LRAPs are created equal. Read the fine print before chaining yourself to six-figure debt.

Has anyone put together a good break down/comparison (perhaps even a fancy spreadsheet?) comparing LRAP programs at T14s? I've been searching through TLS and either my keywords are failing me or it doesn't exist.

I haven't seen such a comparison, but one is desperately needed. You can find school-specific descriptions and criticisms on TLS, but they aren't organized, and nobody has attempted a comprehensive comparison.

This fragmentary knowledge hinders productive discourse. A prospective student asks TLS for advice about a certain school's LRAP and receives either vague, half-right advice about LRAP / federal forgiveness programs in general or irrelevant information about other schools' programs.

What I'm hearing is I should clear my Saturday.

The thing is that each person needs to talk to each schools experts. It isn't possible to know all of the nuances of the plans.
I agree a basic chart is a place to start, but an individual can't rely on it for their unique situation.
In another thread someone posted about being informed by Michigan that $60,000 of debt was too low to qualify for their LRAP. Nothing on their website explains that clearly, it may be because the debt to income is too low for IBR. I couldn't figure that one out. There are complexities to every situation.
Another example is Northwesterns requirement that you have a job immediately open graduation. What does that mean exactly? A lot of PI jobs are waiting for funding, or bar passage, and don't start immediately. I would hesitate to rely on a plan that required immediate employment for a PI job without getting clarification on that rule.

The wonderful thing about TLS is I could post a bare bones thing I've made and people who have done the subsequent research for each school kind of come out of the woodwork. It shouldn't take too long to have a serviceable chart for reference purposes. Though I completely agree one shouldn't plan their financial future around some chart they find on the Internetz

[Tls2016]

I found a couple of old threads that I remembered. They won't be helpful now but if you want to look:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=150

[RZ5646]

What I'm hearing is I should clear my Saturday.

The thing is that each person needs to talk to each schools experts. It isn't possible to know all of the nuances of the plans.
I agree a basic chart is a place to start, but an individual can't rely on it for their unique situation.
In another thread someone posted about being informed by Michigan that $60,000 of debt was too low to qualify for their LRAP. Nothing on their website explains that clearly, it may be because the debt to income is too low for IBR. I couldn't figure that one out. There are complexities to every situation.
Another example is Northwesterns requirement that you have a job immediately open graduation. What does that mean exactly? A lot of PI jobs are waiting for funding, or bar passage, and don't start immediately. I would hesitate to rely on a plan that required immediate employment for a PI job without getting clarification on that rule.

The wonderful thing about TLS is I could post a bare bones thing I've made and people who have done the subsequent research for each school kind of come out of the woodwork. It shouldn't take too long to have a serviceable chart for reference purposes. Though I completely agree one shouldn't plan their financial future around some chart they find on the Internetz

Yeah I agree. Of course the financial aid offices will always be authoritative, and students should consult them before taking the plunge, but we should be able to crowdsource and organize some basic data. If enough schools provide their formula, one could probably make a Google Docs spreadsheet that compares payments for different programs based on a user-supplied income and debt burden.