HS v. (Y) v. Chicago v. Columbia v. Penn Forum

[AltAccount23]

Schools (CoA at repayment):

Yale (?): No admission decision yet, went complete late November. Presume CoA would be approximately similar to Stanford. Obviously I'm not at all certain that I'll get in but I figured I'd include it as a potential option for the sake of completeness.

Harvard (?): Admitted, but no financial aid letter yet. Presume CoA would be approximately similar to Stanford.

Stanford ($240k): ~$12k/year in need grants. Loans for remaining CoA. Only potential caveat to this CoA is that for 2/3L years, I'll be old enough that 25% and 50% (respectively, for those years) of my parents' assets should be excluded from consideration. I'm not sure how much if at all that would change things. My personal assets will result in a near-zero expected student contribution.

Columbia ($75k): Hamilton Fellowship, loans to pay for cost of living.

Chicago ($110k): $150k generic merit scholarship, loans to pay the balance and cost of living.

Penn ($75k): Levy Scholarship, loans to pay for cost of living. Potential for a JD/Masters dual degree in a relevant field to my desired IP practice (more detail below). Still waiting on an admissions decision from the Masters program. Dual degree would increase timeline by one or two semesters and CoA by maybe $40k.

About Me:

GPA: 3.95-4.00
LSAT: 1st take 163-167, 2nd take 174-176

At this point I think I want to practice IP law, probably in the patent field. I am eligible for the patent bar. Given their equivalent CoA for the JD, the appeal of Columbia is the higher rank/prestige and the appeal of Penn is the potential for the dual degree (and the lower cost of living in Philly).

How much would a Masters matter in biotech-type IP? Does that outweigh the additional ranking prestige of Columbia? Is there any sane reason to choose HYS for a nearly $180k markup? (For IP law specifically? For any set of goals in my financial situation?) If H or Y were to somehow give me 2-4x more need aid than Stanford, would either be worth considering even then?

I am not receiving any outside financial support for law school. I have no strong geographic preferences for law school or for the early stages of my career. My family ties are to the Mountain West (trying not to get too personally identifiable here) and I would like to do as much as I can to at least preserve the option of returning to that part of the country to work in Midlaw/gov't/academia of some kind 5+ years after graduation.

[JD116]

I work closely with my firm's IP practice (V 20 BigLaw) and virtually no one went to HYS. They all have PhD/MD/JD combos from T-10s. A few have MAs.

I'd narrow it down to Columbia/Penn and would lean toward Columbia if I were you. It's a pretty easy choice here imo.

[AltAccount23]

I work closely with my firm's IP practice (V 20 BigLaw) and virtually no one went to HYS. They all have PhD/MD/JD combos from T-10s. A few have MAs.

I'd narrow it down to Columbia/Penn and would lean toward Columbia if I were you. It's a pretty easy choice here imo.

That's pretty much my thought as well at this point. What's your perspective on the relative prestige/opportunity of a JD/MS out of Penn versus a JD out of Columbia? Does the additional advanced degree matter? Does it outweigh the ranking difference of those schools or no?

[abl]

Given your financial situation, it sounds like your aid at Stanford's almost certainly going to go up. I'd talk with the financial aid department to get some sort of rough sense of by how much you can expect it to increase.

Incidentally, also, you probably have a good shot of a Stanford dual degree as well. (And you should be able to apply in your 1L year.) Look into that more.

That said, I don't really see HYS as being worth ~$180k more than Columbia or Penn for you. If your dependency situation makes the difference $160k rather than $180k, well, I don't think that really changes things. My one caveat in this is that I don't know that much about IP law.

[JD116]

I work closely with my firm's IP practice (V 20 BigLaw) and virtually no one went to HYS. They all have PhD/MD/JD combos from T-10s. A few have MAs.

I'd narrow it down to Columbia/Penn and would lean toward Columbia if I were you. It's a pretty easy choice here imo.

That's pretty much my thought as well at this point. What's your perspective on the relative prestige/opportunity of a JD/MS out of Penn versus a JD out of Columbia? Does the additional advanced degree matter? Does it outweigh the ranking difference of those schools or no?

I think there are at least two things to consider in this decision:

1. All of our most recent hires have had a specialized degree to complement their JD. An MS is definitely helpful in making a case for specialization, but I can't say if it pales in comparison to a PhD/MD in this case. I will say that there are A LOT of JD/PhDs in our practice. Is there any dual degree opportunity in a field that interests you at Columbia?

2. Many of our IP attorneys have clerked or will be going to clerk at the Federal Circuit. Penn and Columbia place very well at the Federal Circuit. We have several Penn alums who will be clerking there in a year. Of course this is all anecdotal.

Conclusion

Schedule calls with the Career Offices of these schools and gain a clearer sense of their Federal Circuit/IP Law placement.

Any chance you applied to Berkeley? They are the king of the IP world.

[jbagelboy]

I would certainly take the Hamilton here. That $70k will go down to $30k after a 1L and 2L SA (and the IP kids get 1L SAs), whereas the Stanford or Harvard aid pckages will actually decrease if you land a summer associate position.

Columbia actually has a very strong IP department with several of the most prolific people in the field, including the inventor of net neutrality, the daughter of RBG (highly cited copyright prof), and harold edgar. On the employment side, the last few editors of the tech journal have clerked for the federal circuit. Of course, Stanford and berkeley are undeniably a powerhouse for patent law work, but you won't be taking a disadvantageous position in IP at CLS.

I did a 1L SA in IP at a firm with a huge patent practice, and while I ultimately didn't go that route after law school, I have some insight into the field and these school choices so feel free to PM me.

[James.K.Polk]

I work closely with my firm's IP practice (V 20 BigLaw) and virtually no one went to HYS. They all have PhD/MD/JD combos from T-10s. A few have MAs.

I'd narrow it down to Columbia/Penn and would lean toward Columbia if I were you. It's a pretty easy choice here imo.

That's pretty much my thought as well at this point. What's your perspective on the relative prestige/opportunity of a JD/MS out of Penn versus a JD out of Columbia? Does the additional advanced degree matter? Does it outweigh the ranking difference of those schools or no?

I think there are at least two things to consider in this decision:

1. All of our most recent hires have had a specialized degree to complement their JD. An MS is definitely helpful in making a case for specialization, but I can't say if it pales in comparison to a PhD/MD in this case. I will say that there are A LOT of JD/PhDs in our practice. Is there any dual degree opportunity in a field that interests you at Columbia?

2. Many of our IP attorneys have clerked or will be going to clerk at the Federal Circuit. Penn and Columbia place very well at the Federal Circuit. We have several Penn alums who will be clerking there in a year. Of course this is all anecdotal.

Conclusion

Schedule calls with the Career Offices of these schools and gain a clearer sense of their Federal Circuit/IP Law placement.

Any chance you applied to Berkeley? They are the king of the IP world.

By the way, almost none (maybe none at all, I never looked at Yale or Stanford) offer a joint JD/PhD program. Chicago does, and I think Penn is flexible with scheduling, but I know it's near impossible at other schools. This was my first idea as well - PhD in medicinal or biological chemistry and a JD - but all of the IP attorneys you see hired hold their PhD before going back to law school. Besides, can you imagine having a lawyer's salary sitting in front of you, and having six years (not to mention obtuse debt) of lab work sitting in front of you? I sure can't.

If a Masters, then, is the alternative, be wary - because many firms hiring don't see a Masters as any different from a Bachelors or research experience, or both. The firm doesn't necessarily care what degree you hold, but a client feels more comfortable with an attorney who holds a PhD in or close to their field. Even if you can 'talk the talk' of biotechnology, there's just a few jobs (sadly for you and me) that are barred without a PhD. I work for NIH, and one of our main contracted firms only hires PhD/JDs. Nothing else.

All this to say - I'd pick the school and focus on the patent bar before I'd look into dual degrees, at least that's what the (literally) dozens of admissions officers and patent attorneys have told me.

[pterodactyls]

By the way, almost none (maybe none at all, I never looked at Yale or Stanford) offer a joint JD/PhD program. Chicago does, and I think Penn is flexible with scheduling, but I know it's near impossible at other schools.

Yeah I have a friend that did a dual JD/PhD at Penn. So I know it's possible, but I don't know the specifics. Also it was for a social science, not bio/chem, so you'd definitely have to look into it.

[fliptrip]

Not sure it's relevant for you, but SLS has fantastic JD/PhD programs and has one in Bioengineering. I believe you can get both degrees in six years total (ugh), but the good news is that it would dramatically cut your costs at SLS...you'd only really be paying for one year of law school. Seems like a huge stretch for your goals, but just throwing it out there.

[AltAccount23]

I would certainly take the Hamilton here. That $70k will go down to $30k after a 1L and 2L SA (and the IP kids get 1L SAs), whereas the Stanford or Harvard aid pckages will actually decrease if you land a summer associate position.

Columbia actually has a very strong IP department with several of the most prolific people in the field, including the inventor of net neutrality, the daughter of RBG (highly cited copyright prof), and harold edgar. On the employment side, the last few editors of the tech journal have clerked for the federal circuit. Of course, Stanford and berkeley are undeniably a powerhouse for patent law work, but you won't be taking a disadvantageous position in IP at CLS.

I did a 1L SA in IP at a firm with a huge patent practice, and while I ultimately didn't go that route after law school, I have some insight into the field and these school choices so feel free to PM me.

Thanks for the insight, and I'm glad to hear that Columbia isn't kryptonite to high-level IP aspirations.

all of the IP attorneys you see hired hold their PhD before going back to law school.

This is what I've come to realize as well. In scrolling through the IP associate bios of almost all of the V20 firms with significant patent practices, I think I've found a grand total of two attorneys who did dual JD/PhD degrees or did any of their academic graduate work after their JD. Seems like it just isn't done.

I'm aware of all the options in the JD/PhD arena (Stanford, Chicago, Penn have been mentioned in this thread and there are others too) and I've been admitted to some of the mentioned programs, but I think I've come around to the idea that it's basically all about law school plus maybe a Masters if I can get it for minimal extra cost, especially since I already have an undergraduate degree in a hard science.

Thanks everyone.