Full Ride to T4 Or 1/2 Ride To Tulsa (#86 in USWN)? Forum

[CaliLawStudent]

Should I take a full tuition scholarship and $10,000 stipend to Ave Maria Law School (T-4) in Naples, Florida or pay $17,000 per year in tuition + $2,000 in fees at Tulsa, which is ranked 86th on US World News? I have a 3.34 GPA and 152 LSAT.

My fiancee and I get married just before the second semester of 1L year, and she will be working full time as an RN. Thus, we would graduate debt free with money saved up if I go to Ave Maria, while we would graduate anywhere from 40 to 60k in debt from Tulsa. We're both Catholic, thanks be to God, so I think we would love the milieu at Ave Maria, but our families both live here in Oklahoma.

Right now we're both leaning toward Ave Maria since, inter alia, we care more about serving the poor than we do about making money, all debt-related risk is mitigated, and it would give me the opportunity to network within the Church -- which I'm eager to work for one day. However, I like the faculty, externships, and Catholic Church/Newman Center at the University of Tulsa.

I did poorly on the LSAT and I'm registered to take it again in June. But with that said, I'm confident it's best for us that I go to one of these two schools come fall. I'd like to read your perspectives. Perhaps one of you will consider something I haven't.

"The heart of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps." -Proverbs 16:9

[Tls2016]

What exactly career do you want with the Catholic Church? I don't think they have too many in-house lawyers although I know Catholic charities does excellent work with immigrants.

I don't know anything about either school but I strongly suggest you read the placement statistics in Law School Transparency for each school.

Please post the total cost of attendance or the debt you'll owe a graduation from both the schools I have no idea what the tuition and cost of living is at either place. My fear is you're going to be looking at more than $200,000 of debt.

Are you any type of URM? Maybe first generation immigrant?

[CaliLawStudent]

How should I calculate full cost of attendance? Why do they both sound like poor options?

And how could I end up at nearly 200k in debt with 2nd and third year living expenses paid for at either school and all three paid for at Ave?

[CaliLawStudent]

What exactly career do you want with the Catholic Church? I don't think they have too many in-house lawyers although I know Catholic charities does excellent work with immigrants.

I don't know anything about either school but I strongly suggest you read the placement statistics in Law School Transparency for each school.

Please post the total cost of attendance or the debt you'll owe a graduation from both the schools I have no idea what the tuition and cost of living is at either place. My fear is you're going to be looking at more than $200,000 of debt.

Are you any type of URM? Maybe first generation immigrant?

I did post my anticipated debt totals for each school.

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

damn you're good

[pancakes3]

what's your LSAT/GPA, what are the stipulations for keeping your scholarship with Ave Maria, where do you want to practice, and what do you want to practice?

[MLuke]

Do not go to Ave Maria, they post a horrible 35% employment rate on LST. Tulsa seems to be the best option, but you will most likely end up in Oklahoma.

[eagle2a]

Don't go to Ave Maria dude. Just because it's a Catholic school doesn't mean you should go there

[CaliLawStudent]

what's your LSAT/GPA, what are the stipulations for keeping your scholarship with Ave Maria, where do you want to practice, and what do you want to practice?

152/3.34 - I simply want to practice wherever I can maximize my value as a follower of Christ, regardless of geographic area. I want to practice refugee/asylee law ideally

[pancakes3]

you can maximize your value by maximizing your LSAT score. you should retake the test and not settle for anything less than a 170.

[Johann]

you dont need a law degree to work for the church or help the poor.

[Tls2016]

you dont need a law degree to work for the church or help the poor.

You don't need a law degree to work in immigration court with Catholic Services. You can simply become an accredited representative working with a non profit. You can save yourself the cost and 3 years of your life by not going to law school. Most places have free or very low cost trainings for accredited representatives.
https://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/ac ... esentative

If you later decide to go to law school, you will have some experience behind you.

I don't know how many people Catholic Charities hires as staff members. I know in NYC, they use a number of volunteers taking on pro bono cases.

I'm sorry I misread your debt numbers. If you have to go to law school with your low LSAT, then go to the better school. It has the advantage of being where you already live.

Ave Maria is known for being one of the worst law schools in the country. You don't need to attend a Catholic law school to work for the Catholic Church. For example, 2/3 of their "scholarships" are simply one year renewable grants that have stipulations.
http://www.avemarialaw.edu/law-schools/scholarships/
About 30% of the class gets any job as a lawyer.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/avemaria/

What is your backup career? I truly think that the chances of getting a job as a lawyer with Catholic Charities is very small.

Forgot to ask if you are bilingual.

[jrass]

When choosing between two law schools, the prevailing wisdom is to do as Jesus would do. Jesus wouldn't go to Ava Maria or Tulsa, because they didn't exist when he was alive.

[BasilHallward]

Let me be the first to call FLAME on this one.

[GFox345]

Let me be the first to call FLAME on this one.

Agreed.

152/3.34 - I simply want to practice wherever I can maximize my value as a follower of Christ, regardless of geographic area. I want to practice refugee/asylee law ideally.

LOL

[jnwa]

you can maximize your value by maximizing your LSAT score. you should retake the test and not settle for anything less than a 170.

Im all about the retake, hell i retook a 173 but do people really believe anyone is capable of a 170 with enough study. I know the lsat is learnable and id understand if someone already had a 3.9ish gpa but do people here really think a 97th percentile score is achievable for anyone with enough study?

[Tls2016]

Let me be the first to call FLAME on this one.

Agreed.

152/3.34 - I simply want to practice wherever I can maximize my value as a follower of Christ, regardless of geographic area. I want to practice refugee/asylee law ideally.

LOL

Have you guys worked with any lawyers from Catholic Charities? One of the best immigration practitioners in NYC is a Catholic priest who is an accredited representative.

[fliptrip]

you can maximize your value by maximizing your LSAT score. you should retake the test and not settle for anything less than a 170.

Im all about the retake, hell i retook a 173 but do people really believe anyone is capable of a 170 with enough study. I know the lsat is learnable and id understand if someone already had a 3.9ish gpa but do people here really think a 97th percentile score is achievable for anyone with enough study?

There's no way. You only have to get a glimpse at the full range of folks who are taking the LSAT to understand how this isn't true. There are some folks taking the test who lack the core literacy skills to even get to enough of the 101 questions. I do think that most folks who can earn a 3.5+ GPA in college can get in the high 150s if they work hard at it.

[GFox345]

you can maximize your value by maximizing your LSAT score. you should retake the test and not settle for anything less than a 170.

Im all about the retake, hell i retook a 173 but do people really believe anyone is capable of a 170 with enough study. I know the lsat is learnable and id understand if someone already had a 3.9ish gpa but do people here really think a 97th percentile score is achievable for anyone with enough study?

There's no way. You only have to get a glimpse at the full range of folks who are taking the LSAT to understand how this isn't true. There are some folks taking the test who lack the core literacy skills to even get to enough of the 101 questions. I do think that most folks who can earn a 3.5+ GPA in college can get in the high 150s if they work hard at it.

I totally agree with this. There is absolutely no way that everyone is capable of a 170 with enough study. It's a stretch to even make the same claim about a 160 in my opinion.

[GFox345]

Let me be the first to call FLAME on this one.

Agreed.

152/3.34 - I simply want to practice wherever I can maximize my value as a follower of Christ, regardless of geographic area. I want to practice refugee/asylee law ideally.

LOL

Have you guys worked with any lawyers from Catholic Charities? One of the best immigration practitioners in NYC is a Catholic priest who is an accredited representative.

You misunderstand me. I was not saying that Catholics - even Catholic Priests - cannot be good lawyers. There's a joke looming here that's too cheap to make. I was saying that the notion that one can "maximize [one's] value as a follower of Christ" by attending ANY law school is a laughably absurd one. But then again maybe I am not the best judge of such things seeing as I think being a follower of a Bronze Age Religion based on human sacrifice is absurd in the first place.

[JuliusCaesar]

"Don't go to law school" - Matthew 10:28

[jfiaff]

"Don't go to law school" - Matthew 10:28

"Retake" - Proverbs 180

[fliptrip]

Let me be the first to call FLAME on this one.

This is not getting enough attention here. First, even though TLS is chock full of practicing lawyers and current law students, this is the first time I have ever seen inter alia used in a forum post. Second, scripture quotations?

[ponderingmeerkat]

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[JuliusCaesar]

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