Should Berkeley's Recent Scandal + Budget Deficit Impact My Decision? Forum

[KiltedKicker]

I'm leaning toward attending Berkeley next fall, but have a couple of other good options and am still a bit concerned about the scandal with the dean. I have yet to see much discussion on here about whether the scandal is something that should impact the decision of whether or not to go there. While I think the actions of the dean are pretty atrocious, what concerns me most about the future of the school is the way the provost (who is still in charge) responded and the fact that similar scandals have happened multiple times in the recent past. I think the administration doesn't really have its shit together, and that worries me. It would help reassure me that I'm making the right decision to hear some TLS vets give their PoV. Thanks

[Biglaw1990]

.

[fliptrip]

Absolutely not. Don't mistake what's prominent for what is or isn't prevalent. Lecherous men abusing their power and indifferent university administrations are legion in higher education.

[pterodactyls]

I agree that the administration's response was ridiculous, and that the provost should be fired. That said, I think the students' response to the scandal shows a lot about the culture of the school. UC Berkeley has a huge history of student activism and protests. So I'd try not to let one administrator ruin your impression of the school as a whole.

[krads153]

No, the only thing that should be concerning is the massive deficit Berkeley has...like 150 million this year alone. Not sure how that's going to affect tuition, but it can't be good.

[KiltedKicker]

No, the only thing that should be concerning is the massive deficit Berkeley has...like 150 million this year alone. Not sure how that's going to affect tuition, but it can't be good.

Ya I think I agree with that. Tuition went from 48 to 53 for in-state this year, I'd guess similar raises will happen over the next two years and budget cuts are coming as well

[orangered]

No, the only thing that should be concerning is the massive deficit Berkeley has...like 150 million this year alone. Not sure how that's going to affect tuition, but it can't be good.

Ya I think I agree with that. Tuition went from 48 to 53 for in-state this year, I'd guess similar raises will happen over the next two years and budget cuts are coming as well

This is true, but Berkeley has also been historically much cheaper than its peer schools. For example, even with the $5k increase it's still as expensive as UMich, $3k cheaper than Stanford, $7k cheaper than Columbia, etc. UC funding has been cyclical for decades, but Berkeley has maintained its top-tier status throughout.

[KiltedKicker]

No, the only thing that should be concerning is the massive deficit Berkeley has...like 150 million this year alone. Not sure how that's going to affect tuition, but it can't be good.

Ya I think I agree with that. Tuition went from 48 to 53 for in-state this year, I'd guess similar raises will happen over the next two years and budget cuts are coming as well

This is true, but Berkeley has also been historically much cheaper than its peer schools. For example, even with the $5k increase it's still as expensive as UMich, $3k cheaper than Stanford, $7k cheaper than Columbia, etc. UC funding has been cyclical for decades, but Berkeley has maintained its top-tier status throughout.

I'm less concerned about the tuition increases (which suck, but I can afford) than that they are certainly accompanied by budget cuts. I'm worried about what they will cut from the budget, and how much that will impact my experience there.

[grades??]

Yes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/11/us/un ... .html?_r=0

Last time this happened, they stopped paying professors. Sure it is a great school, but if the deficit continues, will all those great professors stay when they are not paid or will they go to greener pastures? Just something to consider. But unlike everyone else, I do not think it's a safe bet that won't affect you, because likely it will.

Full disclosure, I do go to PVD.

[BigZuck]

I'm not seeing why professorial quality matters. I guess maybe it does if you're clerkship gunning and need to use their connections or something (which might be a non-trivial concern for some) but other than that what does it matter? It's law school, it's going to be the same stuff no matter what stiff they prop in front of you. And it's not like Berkeley is going to stop being Berkeley any time soon.

I'm also not sure how you're supposed to factor the tuition stuff. In a way, the nominal tuition is kind of meaningless because everyone is paying different amounts based on the cross-subsidization discounts (or "scholarships") they receive. I guess you could assume "Whelp, it'll probably go up" but not sure how you quantify that and comparing T14 tuition costs seems like a pretty fruitless effort. I'd be really surprised if Berkeley is generally cheaper for its students and I bet it has been one of the most expensive but I'm too lazy to do the 509 analysis here.

[BigZuck]

But yeah I don't think any of this stuff should change your calculus at all, OP

[KiltedKicker]

I'm not seeing why professorial quality matters. I guess maybe it does if you're clerkship gunning and need to use their connections or something (which might be a non-trivial concern for some) but other than that what does it matter? It's law school, it's going to be the same stuff no matter what stiff they prop in front of you. And it's not like Berkeley is going to stop being Berkeley any time soon.

I'm also not sure how you're supposed to factor the tuition stuff. In a way, the nominal tuition is kind of meaningless because everyone is paying different amounts based on the cross-subsidization discounts (or "scholarships") they receive. I guess you could assume "Whelp, it'll probably go up" but not sure how you quantify that and comparing T14 tuition costs seems like a pretty fruitless effort. I'd be really surprised if Berkeley is generally cheaper for its students and I bet it has been one of the most expensive but I'm too lazy to do the 509 analysis here.

Quality of professors matters a lot to me. I think that will have a big impact on how much I enjoy my three years in law school, and given I'm deciding between schools that give me good odds at the outcome I want that is very important to me.

[BigZuck]

I'm not seeing why professorial quality matters. I guess maybe it does if you're clerkship gunning and need to use their connections or something (which might be a non-trivial concern for some) but other than that what does it matter? It's law school, it's going to be the same stuff no matter what stiff they prop in front of you. And it's not like Berkeley is going to stop being Berkeley any time soon.

I'm also not sure how you're supposed to factor the tuition stuff. In a way, the nominal tuition is kind of meaningless because everyone is paying different amounts based on the cross-subsidization discounts (or "scholarships") they receive. I guess you could assume "Whelp, it'll probably go up" but not sure how you quantify that and comparing T14 tuition costs seems like a pretty fruitless effort. I'd be really surprised if Berkeley is generally cheaper for its students and I bet it has been one of the most expensive but I'm too lazy to do the 509 analysis here.

Quality of professors matters a lot to me. I think that will have a big impact on how much I enjoy my three years in law school, and given I'm deciding between schools that give me good odds at the outcome I want that is very important to me.

Making a decision like this based on professors hypothetically being worse seems really silly to me

For all you know you'll think all law school is garbage no matter how "good" or "bad" the professors are

Just follow the money and job prospects, that's all that really matters

[Tanicius]

I'm not seeing why professorial quality matters. I guess maybe it does if you're clerkship gunning and need to use their connections or something (which might be a non-trivial concern for some) but other than that what does it matter? It's law school, it's going to be the same stuff no matter what stiff they prop in front of you. And it's not like Berkeley is going to stop being Berkeley any time soon.

I'm also not sure how you're supposed to factor the tuition stuff. In a way, the nominal tuition is kind of meaningless because everyone is paying different amounts based on the cross-subsidization discounts (or "scholarships") they receive. I guess you could assume "Whelp, it'll probably go up" but not sure how you quantify that and comparing T14 tuition costs seems like a pretty fruitless effort. I'd be really surprised if Berkeley is generally cheaper for its students and I bet it has been one of the most expensive but I'm too lazy to do the 509 analysis here.

Quality of professors matters a lot to me. I think that will have a big impact on how much I enjoy my three years in law school, and given I'm deciding between schools that give me good odds at the outcome I want that is very important to me.

I mean, as a Berkeley Law alum, the very worst professor I ever had in my life was one of their top professors. He taught negative information -- I learned more by not showing up to his class than I did by showing up and listening to him talk because of how senile he had become.

Not sure where this anecdote should leave you, but professor fame has nothing to do with their teaching ability.

[fliptrip]

I'd be really surprised if Berkeley is generally cheaper for its students and I bet it has been one of the most expensive but I'm too lazy to do the 509 analysis here.

Don't worry, Zuck, we have my idle hands to do this work:

[James.K.Polk]

I'd be really surprised if Berkeley is generally cheaper for its students and I bet it has been one of the most expensive but I'm too lazy to do the 509 analysis here.

Don't worry, Zuck, we have my idle hands to do this work:

Damn, this is awesome. Thanks!

[Paul Campos]

If you want a much closer approximation of the real effective tuition, you have to adjust the median discount to take into account the percentage of people who are paying sticker. For instance that makes the real discount rate at Columbia less than $9,000, not $18,000. Etc.

[KiltedKicker]

.

[fliptrip]

If you want a much closer approximation of the real effective tuition, you have to adjust the median discount to take into account the percentage of people who are paying sticker. For instance that makes the real discount rate at Columbia less than $9,000, not $18,000. Etc.

I will put my idle hands to this shortly.

[fliptrip]

And here we go, very eye-opening...go Duke!

[Biglaw1990]

.

[fliptrip]

^^ That's good to know. Also, the analysis is a little flawed because there's a data mismatch...the tuition figures are from 15-16, but the discount percentages are from 14-15. At some point I will go and rectify this problem, but what we have here should be good enough for a conceptual understanding.

[180kickflip]

No, the only thing that should be concerning is the massive deficit Berkeley has...like 150 million this year alone. Not sure how that's going to affect tuition, but it can't be good.

Ya I think I agree with that. Tuition went from 48 to 53 for in-state this year, I'd guess similar raises will happen over the next two years and budget cuts are coming as well

This is true, but Berkeley has also been historically much cheaper than its peer schools. For example, even with the $5k increase it's still as expensive as UMich, $3k cheaper than Stanford, $7k cheaper than Columbia, etc. UC funding has been cyclical for decades, but Berkeley has maintained its top-tier status throughout.

I'm less concerned about the tuition increases (which suck, but I can afford) than that they are certainly accompanied by budget cuts. I'm worried about what they will cut from the budget, and how much that will impact my experience there.

I called financial aid earlier today, and they explained that the estimated tuition and fees stated in our award letters includes the student health insurance (which they price at over 4k), so the big tuition increase we've been fearing isn't happening. Additionally, I got the impression that there is at least a coin flip's chance that tuition stays frozen for the next 3 years (it definitely is this year)

[krads153]

I'd be really surprised if Berkeley is generally cheaper for its students and I bet it has been one of the most expensive but I'm too lazy to do the 509 analysis here.

Don't worry, Zuck, we have my idle hands to do this work:

FYI, Penn's tuition is going up to nearly 61k for 2016-17

Also this doesn't take into account COL...which is a big factor in determining where to go IMO. Some schools I think have separate "fees" that may vary on top of tuition just for enrolling.

Anyway, I'm not really sure how any of this is that helpful....because I doubt any of us know whether the tuition is going to rise or not because of the deficit. The Berkeley administrators don't even know what they are doing at this point.

[BigZuck]

FYI, Penn's tuition is going up to nearly 61k for 2016-17

LOL

Shut them down. All of them. Law school tuition is going to hit 190 before NY does

What a joke

I appreciate all of the helpful info. In case it helps to know my personal info, I was offered 135 at Boalt (which will probably leave me with 25-30 in tuition to cover. Won't need loans), 100K from NYU, and have a Mordecai from Duke. I want to work in corporate startup law in the Bay Area. Beginning to think I should make a decision thread about my choice

Enjoy Berkeley!

Please don't waste precious e-space by creating a choosing thread. You've officially got a BigZuck guarantee that Berkeley is the right decision here. Congrats!

/thread, mods please lock