Emory vs WUSTL vs a few others? Forum

[cmgaus]

Hey guys,

I've got a tough decision coming up. Right now my best offers look like this

WUSTL and Emory- $105,000 scholarships from each.
William and Mary- $60,000
Wake Forest- also $105,000
GW and BC- $75,000

Also, waitlisted at Georgetown and Notre Dame and still no decision from UVA, Vanderbilt, or BU. I don't expect to get off those waitlists or to get into UVA (167 LSAT, 3.2 GPA) but I think Vanderbilt and BU aren't out of the realm of possibility. The problem is WashU has a deposit deadline of April 1st so I have to decide by Friday with what I've got. I plan on calling BC and W&M to discuss potentially increasing my offers because WUSTL and Wake have already done so.

I am from West Virginia and attend undergrad in rural Pennsylvania, but I have no qualms about living and/or working in a city, other than potentially cost of living. Financial concerns will be a huge deal for me, because I will be taking out loans for whatever isn't covered by scholarship. I truly do not have any idea what type of law I want to go into. Also I do not have strong feelings about where I want to work after graduation, only that I have less than zero interest in the west coast. I have family in the vicinity of Emory and Wake Forest but I honestly haven't decided if that is a positive, negative, or neutral factor. I would not be living with them so I'm leaning towards neutral.

I realize it's hard to give me advice when I have so few strong opinions about living and working in these places, but I was wondering if anyone had any advice based on the scholarship offers and overall reputation, location, and employment prospects of these schools. Also, does anyone think any of the waitlist or unresponsive ones are worth waiting for?

[mornincounselor]

I think WUSTL and Emory are on par with each other in terms of employment -- both the raw numbers, and the overall "good school but no major BL market for them to feed into" sentiment. One problem is if you have no real ties to assist you, and the school doesn't place overwhelming well into one particular market it might be hard to sell yourself to any of the available tie-driven markets (which I believe is nearly everywhere outside NYC, Cali, DC, maybe Chicago).

It might be too late in the process now, but I think Illinois and Washington and Lee would both have been great options for you.

Did you do a separate letter explaining why you specifically wanted to go to Notre Dame? If not, thats probably why you were waitlisted. You might still be able to write one.

I would be pretty surprised if you didn't get into Vandy this cycle. Should have money, although less than from Emory and WashU. Could probably get BU also but they never seem to give money to people with your stats.

Your concern about debt is a real one. Illinois with a nearly full (which imo you would qualify for) would be strong, but I'm not sure it specifically is worth sitting out for.

Do you have a good job or opportunities outside of the law? If not --


Of your current options: Vandy with comparable scholarship > WUSTL or Emory (think hard about where to live, visit the schools, see which one resonates more with you) > William and Mary -- but the debt is still really scary.

[cmgaus]

I think WUSTL and Emory are on par with each other in terms of employment -- both the raw numbers, and the overall "good school but no major BL market for them to feed into" sentiment. One problem is if you have no real ties to assist you, and the school doesn't place overwhelming well into one particular market it might be hard to sell yourself to any of the available tie-driven markets (which I believe is nearly everywhere outside NYC, Cali, DC, maybe Chicago).

It might be too late in the process now, but I think Illinois and Washington and Lee would both have been great options for you.

Did you do a separate letter explaining why you specifically wanted to go to Notre Dame? If not, thats probably why you were waitlisted. You might still be able to write one.

I would be pretty surprised if you didn't get into Vandy this cycle. Should have money, although less than from Emory and WashU. Could probably get BU also but they never seem to give money to people with your stats.

Your concern about debt is a real one. Illinois with a nearly full (which imo you would qualify for) would be strong, but I'm not sure it specifically is worth sitting out for.

Do you have a good job or opportunities outside of the law? If not --


Of your current options: Vandy with comparable scholarship > WUSTL or Emory (think hard about where to live, visit the schools, see which one resonates more with you) > William and Mary -- but the debt is still really scary.

I actually just visited WUSTL and Emory and got a good vibe from both of them, but probably more from WashU. I applied to Washington and Lee and got $105,000 from them as well but never got a chance to visit. I did do the Notre Dame letter but frankly it was not a good one because I do not have some burning desire to go there so there was very little feeling or meaning in it unlike my regular personal statement. And no, I am currently in undergrad as a philosophy major so I don't have a job or really many prospects outside of law school.

Still impatiently waiting to hear from Vandy. If they don't get to me by Friday though then I'll have to choose from the others. Is it worth placing a call to admissions at Vandy to inquire? They have to be aware that deadlines are coming up.

[mornincounselor]

I think WUSTL and Emory are on par with each other in terms of employment -- both the raw numbers, and the overall "good school but no major BL market for them to feed into" sentiment. One problem is if you have no real ties to assist you, and the school doesn't place overwhelming well into one particular market it might be hard to sell yourself to any of the available tie-driven markets (which I believe is nearly everywhere outside NYC, Cali, DC, maybe Chicago).

It might be too late in the process now, but I think Illinois and Washington and Lee would both have been great options for you.

Did you do a separate letter explaining why you specifically wanted to go to Notre Dame? If not, thats probably why you were waitlisted. You might still be able to write one.

I would be pretty surprised if you didn't get into Vandy this cycle. Should have money, although less than from Emory and WashU. Could probably get BU also but they never seem to give money to people with your stats.

Your concern about debt is a real one. Illinois with a nearly full (which imo you would qualify for) would be strong, but I'm not sure it specifically is worth sitting out for.

Do you have a good job or opportunities outside of the law? If not --


Of your current options: Vandy with comparable scholarship > WUSTL or Emory (think hard about where to live, visit the schools, see which one resonates more with you) > William and Mary -- but the debt is still really scary.

I actually just visited WUSTL and Emory and got a good vibe from both of them, but probably more from WashU. I applied to Washington and Lee and got $105,000 from them as well but never got a chance to visit. I did do the Notre Dame letter but frankly it was not a good one because I do not have some burning desire to go there so there was very little feeling or meaning in it unlike my regular personal statement. And no, I am currently in undergrad as a philosophy major so I don't have a job or really many prospects outside of law school.

Still impatiently waiting to hear from Vandy. If they don't get to me by Friday though then I'll have to choose from the others. Is it worth placing a call to admissions at Vandy to inquire? They have to be aware that deadlines are coming up.

About calling admissions, I don't know. It shows interest. So there is probably some upside with very little downside.

Since you're still in UG, I would highly consider sitting out a year (I don't think anyone should go from UG directly to LS). In the meantime any job you get can help with employment interviews during law school and I would also try retaking if you are attempts left. A single extra point on the LSAT would have gotten you a ton more money at WUSTL this cycle (and presumably into the future.)

[fliptrip]

I'd feel a whole lot better about advising WUSTL here if it were cheaper and especially if it were free.

[cmgaus]

Well, I received the aforementioned offer from W&L, $126,000 from Case Western, first-year in-state tuition at UGA, and full tuition at Villanova, Penn State, and WVU and nearly full at Seton Hall and Cardozo. I am not totally averse to taking some debt however, so I was naturally gravitating more towards the higher ranked schools.

Is there some reason that people truly think I shouldn't go to WashU or Emory, or is it just because I said I was taking loans? I mean no offense to anyone on this site but I do get the sense that there is an attitude that anything outside of the top ten or fourteen or whatever isn't good enough for some reason. Frankly, as the first person in my family to even attend undergrad, let alone law school, I was thrilled with the offers I have gotten so far until I got on this forum. The 167 was my second LSAT and while I was getting 170+s on practice tests I feel like waiting and taking it a third time would be an unnecessary risk. I also do not really have a system in place that could support me taking a year off from school, and at the risk of falling victim to the sunk cost fallacy, I did pay almost $1500 between applying and visiting all these places and I do not think I will ever be as ready as I am now to take this next step in my education. So, assuming Vandy, ND, UVA, Georgetown, and BU are all negative results, do people still think WUSTL or Emory would be some kind of major mistake? And is it worth calling BC, GW, and W&M and asking about more money?

[fliptrip]

It's not an elitist perspective, I assure you. If you look at another WUSTL vs. forum that's going on right now, you'll see that I'm advising WUSTL over Duke and Harvard.

It's all about outputs and costs. I think WUSTL is worth about $109k for what it delivers outcome-wise. I don't feel it's a major mistake, but I also don't feel super enthused about it at your current cost. Anything to make it cheaper will make it better.

You said something that is interesting...the way we reacted on the forum to your schools made you feel discouraged about your school choices. Try to remember that law is prestige-obsessed and you will forever have to deal with people who have their nose in the air because you didn't go to a t-14. You'll do yourself a big favor now by learning not to care about that if you can. If you can't then it's time to rethink your whole strategy.

E: fixed the expected income figure.

[mornincounselor]

Well, I received the aforementioned offer from W&L, $126,000 from Case Western, first-year in-state tuition at UGA, and full tuition at Villanova, Penn State, and WVU and nearly full at Seton Hall and Cardozo. I am not totally averse to taking some debt however, so I was naturally gravitating more towards the higher ranked schools.

Is there some reason that people truly think I shouldn't go to WashU or Emory, or is it just because I said I was taking loans? I mean no offense to anyone on this site but I do get the sense that there is an attitude that anything outside of the top ten or fourteen or whatever isn't good enough for some reason. Frankly, as the first person in my family to even attend undergrad, let alone law school, I was thrilled with the offers I have gotten so far until I got on this forum. The 167 was my second LSAT and while I was getting 170+s on practice tests I feel like waiting and taking it a third time would be an unnecessary risk. I also do not really have a system in place that could support me taking a year off from school, and at the risk of falling victim to the sunk cost fallacy, I did pay almost $1500 between applying and visiting all these places and I do not think I will ever be as ready as I am now to take this next step in my education. So, assuming Vandy, ND, UVA, Georgetown, and BU are all negative results, do people still think WUSTL or Emory would be some kind of major mistake? And is it worth calling BC, GW, and W&M and asking about more money?

On these two points: I don't think there is a "major risk" involved with sitting out and taking the test again. Schools don't average LSAT scores anymore, you either do better or you reapply with your same score. On the schools end, it's unlikely they will accept you this year, then reject you next year. You may even want to use the prospect of sitting out as a bargaining chip. Right now WUSTL probably feels they are your best offer (they are probably right). They don't want to negotiate against themselves. But if you tell them politely that you would be privileged to attend, but the cost is too high and you are planning on sitting out and reapply next year with a fresh LSAT score, this might drive them into giving you more money now. Again, it's all upside. On the sunk costs, I suppose that is a cost. It's a very minor one in the landscape of law school debt, however. You may qualify for need-based fee waivers or merit-based fee waivers next year. But, even if not, $1500 (and the travel part of that isn't a sunk cost -- the schools are unlikely to transform by next cycle) is less than 1% of the money you will be forced to pay back over the next ten years at any of the top-end schools you are currently considering.

The system in place for taking a year off from school is getting a job. If you've never had a job before, I think the experience of looking, applying, interviewing, etc. will pay dividends for you in the job search during law school. Plus the experience will, on it's own, help you in the future.