Notre Dame placement Forum

[xspider]

Dude UT and Vandy have objectively had better numbers than ND, historically and recently. It's just a true statement of fact. ND may not be "poor" by comparison, but they're definitely "worse." Like, since they started keeping score.

And, I'm not so sure about being confident at top 25% there, unless I knew I was a great interviewee. Like I said, 37% is the high water mark per the data, and a certain subset is IP, URM, or connected. Thus top 25% is by definition borderline. Some people will be hired at median or worse bc of personal traits, which hurts people in that top 25% range.

Obvs ND isn't a bad school, and can be a reasonable decision with enough scholarship money. But it's definitely below UT/Vandy in the pecking order based on outcomes. Telling 0Ls otherwise is wrong.

Wait, may I ask, do people really think that many IP and URMs bump up a percentage? I hear that a lot, but it is hard to believe that those people have a strong bump on percentages since there are only a few that have those characteristics.

[cron1834]

Dude UT and Vandy have objectively had better numbers than ND, historically and recently. It's just a true statement of fact. ND may not be "poor" by comparison, but they're definitely "worse." Like, since they started keeping score.

And, I'm not so sure about being confident at top 25% there, unless I knew I was a great interviewee. Like I said, 37% is the high water mark per the data, and a certain subset is IP, URM, or connected. Thus top 25% is by definition borderline. Some people will be hired at median or worse bc of personal traits, which hurts people in that top 25% range.

Obvs ND isn't a bad school, and can be a reasonable decision with enough scholarship money. But it's definitely below UT/Vandy in the pecking order based on outcomes. Telling 0Ls otherwise is wrong.

Wait, may I ask, do people really think that many IP and URMs bump up a percentage? I hear that a lot, but it is hard to believe that those people have a strong bump on percentages since there are only a few that have those characteristics.

So, the class of '14 data says 60 people reported 50+ attorney firms at NDLS. So, yeah, 4 URMs + 4 connected brats who went to an Ivy undergrad taken together could absolutely impact the chances of a random white male KJD at the 75th percentile of gpa, to say nothing of IP.

Hiring has picked up, but so has their class size, unlike most schools. You could totally be solid at top 25% there, but I wouldn't bet $150k of debt on it.

[xspider]

Dude UT and Vandy have objectively had better numbers than ND, historically and recently. It's just a true statement of fact. ND may not be "poor" by comparison, but they're definitely "worse." Like, since they started keeping score.

And, I'm not so sure about being confident at top 25% there, unless I knew I was a great interviewee. Like I said, 37% is the high water mark per the data, and a certain subset is IP, URM, or connected. Thus top 25% is by definition borderline. Some people will be hired at median or worse bc of personal traits, which hurts people in that top 25% range.

Obvs ND isn't a bad school, and can be a reasonable decision with enough scholarship money. But it's definitely below UT/Vandy in the pecking order based on outcomes. Telling 0Ls otherwise is wrong.

Wait, may I ask, do people really think that many IP and URMs bump up a percentage? I hear that a lot, but it is hard to believe that those people have a strong bump on percentages since there are only a few that have those characteristics.

So, the class of '14 data says 60 people reported 50+ attorney firms at NDLS. So, yeah, 4 URMs + 4 connected brats who went to an Ivy undergrad taken together could absolutely impact the chances of a random white male KJD at the 75th percentile of gpa, to say nothing of IP.

Hiring has picked up, but so has their class size, unlike most schools. You could totally be solid at top 25% there, but I wouldn't bet $150k of debt on it.

Thanks for not being a dick about it. I admit you're right, I just would not have guessed only 8 people could change that much. Albeit, I did not research their placement info.

[TirantMartorell]

Dude UT and Vandy have objectively had better numbers than ND, historically and recently. It's just a true statement of fact. ND may not be "poor" by comparison, but they're definitely "worse." Like, since they started keeping score.

And, I'm not so sure about being confident at top 25% there, unless I knew I was a great interviewee. Like I said, 37% is the high water mark per the data, and a certain subset is IP, URM, or connected. Thus top 25% is by definition borderline. Some people will be hired at median or worse bc of personal traits, which hurts people in that top 25% range.

Obvs ND isn't a bad school, and can be a reasonable decision with enough scholarship money. But it's definitely below UT/Vandy in the pecking order based on outcomes. Telling 0Ls otherwise is wrong.

UT and Vandy do have objectively better numbers than ND. I never said anything to the contrary. All I said is that in comparison, ND does not fare poorly. If you want to debate that, go ahead, but I've never argued that UT/Vandy don't have better numberes. 46% and 41% biglaw+fed clerk for UT/Vandy is certainly better than 37% for ND. My broader point is that the different is small enough that all of your concerns regarding people outside the top 25% ND are also applicable to people in the same position at Vandy and UT.

Ultimately, a choice between UT and ND is kind of pointless. ND is a much better school for the midwest/chicago market and UT is a much better school for the Texas market. Don't go to ND if you've got a good offer from UT and don't go to UT over ND if you prefer to work in the Midwest.

Your IP and URM and well-connected people comments are completely anecdotal, based on assumptions and there is no data to demonstrate that any of that significantly affects other people's ability to obtain a job. What does matter is your personality and your interviewing skills. If you're awkward or a weirdo, you better have great grades at just about any school. People hire other people they like to work with.

[cron1834]

Thanks for not being a dick about it. I admit you're right, I just would not have guessed only 8 people could change that much. Albeit, I did not research their placement info.

I mean, you're talking about 50 or 60 jobs, give or take. Top 25% of the class is 50 people. It's not always going to work itself out cleanly such that 1-50 in class rank get automatic first dibs... if #80 in the class is an AA female who is a good interviewee, I'd hire her over #50 Joe Blow KJD White Male from Directional State University if he didn't interview well, wouldn't you? That's not really a significant difference in academic performance, it's like one extra A- on a 4 hour test.

UT and Vandy do have objectively better numbers than ND.

All I said is that in comparison, ND does not fare poorly.

Ok, I give up. I don't know what this means. ND is clearly worse than them. Enough so that it has to change your calculus. Whether "CLEARLY WORSE" means "poor by comparison" or not, I don't know or care. It's a pointless distinction. ND is worse than them.

Edit - I agree w/you on the regional stuff tho. For sure.

[Effingham]

I want to emphasize that I know several people who are well above any cut-offs required for big-law firms doing public interest fellowship type jobs their 2L summer and after graduation. I thought it was hype going in, but ND absolutely attracts the type of individual that forgoes biglaw and this would skew the numbers downward, if only by a bit. And to echo Andy's point, I also know some generic, white, KJD's (though definitely good interviewers) right around or only slightly above median doing quite well.

Overall, don't go without substantial financial aid, but ND is a much better choice than just about any other school not in the T-14 aside from UT and Vandy - though, as was mentioned above, even that can vary depending on regional considerations.