Notre Dame placement Forum

[WanyeKest]

Where does ND typically place? and would it be considered a semi-national school? It's hard for me to believe that it only places well in Indiana. I would think it deserves a better ranking than 22, especially being tied to Minnesota and being under Iowa.

[irish921]

It's national but it's not.

Placement occurs around the nation, which is partially a result of ND undergrads that went to law school at T14s but are still faithful to their alma mater. If you do well at ND, you are not working in Indiana unless you want to. Last year's class placed somewhere around 8% in Indiana. It's kind of the antithesis of a regional school in that sense.

That being said, if you aren't top third, get ready for a struggle -- the national placement is tied to clerkships and biglaw, which is out of reach for 2/3 of the class. Those people generally just go back to wherever is home for shitlaw or PI.

tl;dr
ND gives you national placement if you do well. If not, you will return home (which perpetuates the myth that ND places around the country, but not in good jobs).

[ND2018]

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... yers/2014/, top state employers last year were NY, ILL, MICH. I think the above is an oversimplification.

[BigZuck]

Where does ND typically place? and would it be considered a semi-national school? It's hard for me to believe that it only places well in Indiana. I would think it deserves a better ranking than 22, especially being tied to Minnesota and being under Iowa.

You're assuming that U.S. News Rankings matter and that the methodology is meaningful in some way but unfortunately neither is the case.

[andythefir]

To my surprise, it seemed that roughly ⅔ of my class (2014) had objectively good outcomes. Biglaw/clerkship, middle sized firms in small markets, DAs/PDs for people who wanted those gigs, and so on. I personally know people comfortably below median who had multiple biglaw offers. ND also has an unbelievable LRAP, summer student stipends, post graduation stipends, and so on. If you want to make it work somewhere, you can make it work almost anywhere.

[WanyeKest]

Would you guys say it only works if your catholic and white, or one of the other? I'm neither btw. What I am talking about is ND's pretty decent placement in BigLaw and Clerkships (if you are above median).

[TirantMartorell]

It's national but it's not.

Placement occurs around the nation, which is partially a result of ND undergrads that went to law school at T14s but are still faithful to their alma mater. If you do well at ND, you are not working in Indiana unless you want to. Last year's class placed somewhere around 8% in Indiana. It's kind of the antithesis of a regional school in that sense.

That being said, if you aren't top third, get ready for a struggle -- the national placement is tied to clerkships and biglaw, which is out of reach for 2/3 of the class. Those people generally just go back to wherever is home for shitlaw or PI.

tl;dr
ND gives you national placement if you do well. If not, you will return home (which perpetuates the myth that ND places around the country, but not in good jobs).

This isn't entirely true. There are people in the current 3L class with grades near or just below median with good jobs lined up, even in biglaw. The idea that biglaw is out of the reach for near median people just isn't the case. What is true is that median grades at ND will not guarantee you a biglaw job or even a good job necessarily. For people near median you'll find a great variety of outcomes depending on target market, personal background, their ability to network, how personable they are, etc.

[TirantMartorell]

Would you guys say it only works if your catholic and white, or one of the other? I'm neither btw. What I am talking about is ND's pretty decent placement in BigLaw and Clerkships (if you are above median).

Your religious background has no role in your ability to get hired in biglaw. If anything, being non-white might give you an advantage at firms interested in increasing diversity.

[andythefir]

Would you guys say it only works if your catholic and white, or one of the other? I'm neither btw. What I am talking about is ND's pretty decent placement in BigLaw and Clerkships (if you are above median).

Being Catholic helps with alumni that went for the Catholic angle, but I can't imagine it would hurt not being Catholic. Clerkships and biglaw are completely different beasts when it comes to personal things in common with person hiring. Biglaw is looking for non-sociopaths with good grades who will either flame out or stay long enough to return their investment. Clerkships involve looking for a mentee you will work closely with for at least a year.

[cron1834]

NDLS is a super-regional; it's above the level of most state flagship schools, because a third of the grads are in play for biglaw/clerking... but it's very clearly below the T14 and UT/Vandy. It is what it is. Either that description fits what you need, or it doesn't... actual USNews number rankings don't matter.

[TirantMartorell]

NDLS is a super-regional; it's above the level of most state flagship schools, because a third of the grads are in play for biglaw/clerking... but it's very clearly below the T14 and UT/Vandy. It is what it is. Either that description fits what you need, or it doesn't... actual USNews number rankings don't matter.

Super-regional seems to be an exaggeration for a school that places most of its graduates outside the region.

[cron1834]

NDLS is a super-regional; it's above the level of most state flagship schools, because a third of the grads are in play for biglaw/clerking... but it's very clearly below the T14 and UT/Vandy. It is what it is. Either that description fits what you need, or it doesn't... actual USNews number rankings don't matter.

Super-regional seems to be an exaggeration for a school that places most of its graduates outside the region.

I mean "above" regional, below the actually national. A tweener.

Edit - not to lose sight of the larger point, maybe a third of people will get biglaw+fedclerk, and very few will be in the mix for prestigious pi. That said, it's more national than Louisiana State ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[andythefir]

NDLS is a super-regional; it's above the level of most state flagship schools, because a third of the grads are in play for biglaw/clerking... but it's very clearly below the T14 and UT/Vandy. It is what it is. Either that description fits what you need, or it doesn't... actual USNews number rankings don't matter.

Super-regional seems to be an exaggeration for a school that places most of its graduates outside the region.

I mean "above" regional, below the actually national. A tweener.

Edit - not to lose sight of the larger point, maybe a third of people will get biglaw+fedclerk, and very few will be in the mix for prestigious pi. That said, it's more national than Louisiana State ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'd say ⅔ of my class was in the running for biglaw judging by the people I knew who got it with comfortably below median grades. I'd also bet my LRAP checks that cover 100% of my loans that its LRAP is much better than Vanderbilt/UT.

[cron1834]

NDLS is a super-regional; it's above the level of most state flagship schools, because a third of the grads are in play for biglaw/clerking... but it's very clearly below the T14 and UT/Vandy. It is what it is. Either that description fits what you need, or it doesn't... actual USNews number rankings don't matter.

Super-regional seems to be an exaggeration for a school that places most of its graduates outside the region.

I mean "above" regional, below the actually national. A tweener.

Edit - not to lose sight of the larger point, maybe a third of people will get biglaw+fedclerk, and very few will be in the mix for prestigious pi. That said, it's more national than Louisiana State ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'd say ⅔ of my class was in the running for biglaw judging by the people I knew who got it with comfortably below median grades. I'd also bet my LRAP checks that cover 100% of my loans that its LRAP is much better than Vanderbilt/UT.

So ND has never had anything like that collective biglaw outcome before, ever, but we're to believe that your class is on-par with UVA/Duke and better than Mich/Berk? Sure thing sport.

[elimanning]

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[BigZuck]

NDLS is a super-regional; it's above the level of most state flagship schools, because a third of the grads are in play for biglaw/clerking... but it's very clearly below the T14 and UT/Vandy. It is what it is. Either that description fits what you need, or it doesn't... actual USNews number rankings don't matter.

Super-regional seems to be an exaggeration for a school that places most of its graduates outside the region.

I mean "above" regional, below the actually national. A tweener.

Edit - not to lose sight of the larger point, maybe a third of people will get biglaw+fedclerk, and very few will be in the mix for prestigious pi. That said, it's more national than Louisiana State ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'd say ⅔ of my class was in the running for biglaw judging by the people I knew who got it with comfortably below median grades. I'd also bet my LRAP checks that cover 100% of my loans that its LRAP is much better than Vanderbilt/UT.

"Laugh out loud"

Come on dude, no. You can like your school, that's fine. But don't do this.

[TirantMartorell]

I agree with the poster above me. When I visited ND and spoke with students there, they made it very clear that landing biglaw is a struggle, unless you are near the top 10%-15% of the class. And even then you are no shoe-in. I got the feeling (again, based on speaking with current 1L/2L/3Ls at ND during my visit) that students near/below median face immense difficulty in terms of hiring prospects. And most jobs landed by students near/below median do not pay enough to sufficiently and comfortably service law school debt (unless, of course, you attend on a full/close to full scholarship).

The bold just isn't true and the statistics actually say something different. We've now gone from some guy a few posts above saying that big law is out of the reach to people outside the top 1/3 - which doesn't really explain how 37% of the class of 2014 landed big law or fed clerkships, to now elimanning saying that you need to be near the top 10-15% of the class to land big law.

Instead of all this speculation, people should just look at the employment statistics showing that ND students get jobs throughout the country and that a bit over 1/3 of students land big law or federal clerkships. ND is not a T-14 school and it will not give you the chances to land big law of a T-14 but it does not compare unfavorable to schools just outside the T-14 whose biglaw+fed clerk placement is somewhere in the 30-45% rate. Even Vandy and UT, which an above poster mentioned as better alternatives, are only placing 40-45% of their grads in big law or fed clerkships.

[elimanning]

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[elimanning]

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[TirantMartorell]

Also, let me add that I was accepted to ND and love the school--not trying to hate in anyway, just relaying my own personal experience.

I get that, though if your definition of a struggle seems to be that it's not guaranteed outside the top 10-15% and you might have to put in some time and effort into the job search, then that could apply to any school outside the T-14. Yes, you can't just walk into OCI with only slightly above median grades and hope a Chicago firm will snag you up.

[andythefir]

I agree with the poster above me. When I visited ND and spoke with students there, they made it very clear that landing biglaw is a struggle, unless you are near the top 10%-15% of the class. And even then you are no shoe-in. I got the feeling (again, based on speaking with current 1L/2L/3Ls at ND during my visit) that students near/below median face immense difficulty in terms of hiring prospects. And most jobs landed by students near/below median do not pay enough to sufficiently and comfortably service law school debt (unless, of course, you attend on a full/close to full scholarship).

The bold just isn't true and the statistics actually say something different. We've now gone from some guy a few posts above saying that big law is out of the reach to people outside the top 1/3 - which doesn't really explain how 37% of the class of 2014 landed big law or fed clerkships, to now elimanning saying that you need to be near the top 10-15% of the class to land big law.

Instead of all this speculation, people should just look at the employment statistics showing that ND students get jobs throughout the country and that a bit over 1/3 of students land big law or federal clerkships. ND is not a T-14 school and it will not give you the chances to land big law of a T-14 but it does not compare unfavorable to schools just outside the T-14 whose biglaw+fed clerk placement is somewhere in the 30-45% rate. Even Vandy and UT, which an above poster mentioned as better alternatives, are only placing 40-45% of their grads in big law or fed clerkships.

I said for those outside of the top 10-15% landing biglaw is a struggle. Not that it doesn't happen. BigLaw competition in Chicago, ND's main market, is one of the most competitive in the country. And this is based off of my experience speaking with students at ND---not my own speculation.

I can think of a handful of people I know personally who got traditional biglaw in Chicago with below average grades. The class of 2014 may have done better than others, but it's bizarre to have people on this threat categorically say that outside of the top 15% that outcome can't happen.

[BigZuck]

I agree with the poster above me. When I visited ND and spoke with students there, they made it very clear that landing biglaw is a struggle, unless you are near the top 10%-15% of the class. And even then you are no shoe-in. I got the feeling (again, based on speaking with current 1L/2L/3Ls at ND during my visit) that students near/below median face immense difficulty in terms of hiring prospects. And most jobs landed by students near/below median do not pay enough to sufficiently and comfortably service law school debt (unless, of course, you attend on a full/close to full scholarship).

The bold just isn't true and the statistics actually say something different. We've now gone from some guy a few posts above saying that big law is out of the reach to people outside the top 1/3 - which doesn't really explain how 37% of the class of 2014 landed big law or fed clerkships, to now elimanning saying that you need to be near the top 10-15% of the class to land big law.

Instead of all this speculation, people should just look at the employment statistics showing that ND students get jobs throughout the country and that a bit over 1/3 of students land big law or federal clerkships. ND is not a T-14 school and it will not give you the chances to land big law of a T-14 but it does not compare unfavorable to schools just outside the T-14 whose biglaw+fed clerk placement is somewhere in the 30-45% rate. Even Vandy and UT, which an above poster mentioned as better alternatives, are only placing 40-45% of their grads in big law or fed clerkships.

I said for those outside of the top 10-15% landing biglaw is a struggle. Not that it doesn't happen. BigLaw competition in Chicago, ND's main market, is one of the most competitive in the country. And this is based off of my experience speaking with students at ND---not my own speculation.

I can think of a handful of people I know personally who got traditional biglaw in Chicago with below average grades. The class of 2014 may have done better than others, but it's bizarre to have people on this threat categorically say that outside of the top 15% that outcome can't happen.

Who categorically said that?

[cron1834]

37% is the high-water mark for ND in recent years. You can't just call that the norm unless it's repeated several times. Even at this number, you know that of the 37%, a certain portion had IP, URM, or family/background going for them. It's just how hiring works, at any school. So ND is definitely not a shitty place... but if 37% is the high-water mark, and a portion of those aren't Joe Blow average white males, I wouldn't feel very confident with grades below top 25%, personally.

Obviously some people beat the odds... but that doesn't change the math in the aggregate.

[TirantMartorell]

37% is the high-water mark for ND in recent years. You can't just call that the norm unless it's repeated several times. Even at this number, you know that of the 37%, a certain portion had IP, URM, or family/background going for them. It's just how hiring works, at any school. So ND is definitely not a shitty place... but if 37% is the high-water mark, and a portion of those aren't Joe Blow average white males, I wouldn't feel very confident with grades below top 25%, personally.

Obviously some people beat the odds... but that doesn't change the math in the aggregate.

Sure, 37% is a high-water mark for ND in recent years, but so are the 2014 numbers for just about every other school. Biglaw placement rates have gradually risen in the last 3-4 years after the recession, ND has simply followed that trend. Example: UT, a school you find to be "very clearly" above ND, has seen it's biglaw + fed clerk numbers rise from 30% in 2011 to 46% in 2014. ND's numbers have followed a similar trend, rising from 25% to 37% in the same period. There's nothing to indicate that 2014 was somehow exceptional for ND.

I think the broader point here is that top 25% at ND can be relatively confident they can land biglaw, for those near median to just under 25% the results will be hit and miss and will depend on many factors, but you're certainly not out of the running. Don't come to ND expecting T-14 job prospects, but ND's biglaw placement is respectable and does not fare poorly when compared to schools just outside the T-14.

[cron1834]

Dude UT and Vandy have objectively had better numbers than ND, historically and recently. It's just a true statement of fact. ND may not be "poor" by comparison, but they're definitely "worse." Like, since they started keeping score.

And, I'm not so sure about being confident at top 25% there, unless I knew I was a great interviewee. Like I said, 37% is the high water mark per the data, and a certain subset is IP, URM, or connected. Thus top 25% is by definition borderline. Some people will be hired at median or worse bc of personal traits, which hurts people in that top 25% range.

Obvs ND isn't a bad school, and can be a reasonable decision with enough scholarship money. But it's definitely below UT/Vandy in the pecking order based on outcomes. Telling 0Ls otherwise is wrong.