H v Chi v Penn v Vandy PI Forum

[Theresa87]

-The schools you are considering
Harvard (93k)
Penn (112k)
Chicago (90k)
Vandy (125k) (but worried about limiting myself to the south)
Columbia (waiting on financial aid, not sure what to expect)
Berkeley (waiting on financial aid)

Also in at Duke with 105k but not interested in attending
waiting to hear from yale and stanford on acceptance but not getting my hopes up

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
Okay, so these numbers are scary, but they take into account the full COL and accumulated interest assuming I pay it off in 10 years. I may be able to borrow less for COL.
Harvard (282k)
Chicago (273k)
Penn (178k)
Vandy (175k)


-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
loans
no current debt or significant assets at this time
definitely planning to use LRAP

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
small town in the South with few ties, no significant ties anywhere
I was thinking about NY or DC after looking at employment opportunities, but I am flexible. I have a SO who plans to move where I go to law school. I'm unmarried, young (but not KJD) with no kids. I'm not counting on SO to offset living costs because it may take him a while to move out there since he needs to find a job, and he may live with parents for a year to save.


-Your general career goals
Dream job-impact litigation, prestigious PI- precisely why I applied to these schools. I know how ridiculously hard it is to work for somewhere like DOJ civil rights or NAACP or ACLU. That would be amazing, but I would be happy with a lower profile organization. I really want to work for a women's rights organization. I've been gathering a list of all the ones in the U.S. and looked at a few in DC/NY. I've looked at staff attorney bios and have seen many Harvard and Yale. I'm worried that I need Harvard due to my lack of connections and lack of work experience. My resume is decent for someone who took a year off between undergrad and law school, but not stellar.

I would be happy with PI in general and maybe even just doing legal aid. I come from a modest family background, have volunteered for an organization in my field for 3 years, and have done AmeriCorps service so I have managed to live quite frugally (althugh admittedly with no kids/spouse and low COL).
NO desire for biglaw
may want to do gov't

I'm trying to learn more and more about law careers and hiring processes, but I am relatively unfamiliar, so sorry if anything career-related comes off as naive.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
173/4.0

-How many times you have taken the LSAT
3

I wasn't too worried about debt because of LRAP, but now I am worrying about it. It seems like I have no good options. I like Harvard's LRAP because it's not tied to IBR/PSLF but I would be taking on significantly more debt. At somewhere like Penn it still be significant debt, but a lot less than Harvard, but also tied to PSLF.

[GreenEggs]

I don't understand the first set of numbers, are the parentheses your aid/scholarship? As in H gave you 93k?

[Vandy2bforrealz]

Harvard is the easy choice with these coas.

[Emma.]

If you are committed to going to law school at these prices, Harvard for sure.

[GreenEggs]

Yeah no matter what that number means, your costs don't seem that far apart, it seems like H is a smart choice (barring Hamilton or a full ride at Berkeley). Your goals + LRAP make H pretty defensible

[Theresa87]

Sorry numbers in parentheses mean the amount of scholarship/grant aid.

So almost full amount of grant aid from Harvard. When I started getting offers, I was thinking easily Harvard but became scared after looking at full COA with differences in COL and accumulated interest. For someone who has never taken out a loan, the numbers are terrifying.

[GreenEggs]

i don't understand how penn is 100k less with only 20k more scholarship money

[jbagelboy]

Probably H here, unless CLS comes in with something very generous, but even then maybe still H.

[Philafaler]

OP, are you counting the total amount of interest you'll pay over the 10 years of repayment, or just the interest accumulated up to the time of graduation? You should do the latter.

[Theresa87]

OP, are you counting the total amount of interest you'll pay over the 10 years of repayment, or just the interest accumulated up to the time of graduation? You should do the latter.

Oops. I was using the 10 year figures.

Harvard 193k debt upon graduation
Penn 123 k debt upon graduation
Chicago- 187

So seems like no significant difference between Harvard and Chicago and I'm expecting the same with Columbia. After reading around a bit it doesn't seem like Columbia or Chicago negotiate well, but I still need to research more into that. If between those 3, I think it'd be Harvard. The only other appealing option seems to be Penn if I could negotiate more.

Are financial aid offices helpful for individual admits trying to figure out a more personalized budget? I was going to just take out the full amount of COL loans 1L and adjust accordingly 2L and 3L, but it would be nice to not take out as much.

[LoganCouture]

OP, are you counting the total amount of interest you'll pay over the 10 years of repayment, or just the interest accumulated up to the time of graduation? You should do the latter.

Oops. I was using the 10 year figures.

Harvard 193k debt upon graduation
Penn 123 k debt upon graduation
Chicago- 187

So seems like no significant difference between Harvard and Chicago and I'm expecting the same with Columbia. After reading around a bit it doesn't seem like Columbia or Chicago negotiate well, but I still need to research more into that. If between those 3, I think it'd be Harvard. The only other appealing option seems to be Penn if I could negotiate more.

Are financial aid offices helpful for individual admits trying to figure out a more personalized budget? I was going to just take out the full amount of COL loans 1L and adjust accordingly 2L and 3L, but it would be nice to not take out as much.

You can generally return federal loans within a 120 day period so you can use that to adjust. Alternatively the school should disburse loans each term so you can take out less than you originally planned 2nd semester of 1L if you find that you didn't need everything you took out in fall.

[fliptrip]

OP....say it with me...H A R, H A R, H A R with a V; V A R, V A R , V A R with a D...HARVARD HARVARD HARVARD!

Good luck and enjoy!

[Hikikomorist]

Huh? OP massively underperformed her numbers, right? Shouldn't we suggest she reapply next cycle if she can't get any of those schools to budge? I get that she wants PI, but those numbers should be pulling down a full-tuition scholly at UVA/Penn/NYU, right?

[KiltedKicker]

Ya you seem like a good candidate for named awards at NYU, Duke, Michigan and UVA, which given a PI interest might be appealing. But if I were you I'd take Harvard and be very, very happy. Harvard is offering a pretty significant amount of money, and it's Harvard.

[Philafaler]

OP, are you counting the total amount of interest you'll pay over the 10 years of repayment, or just the interest accumulated up to the time of graduation? You should do the latter.

Oops. I was using the 10 year figures.

Harvard 193k debt upon graduation
Penn 123 k debt upon graduation
Chicago- 187

So seems like no significant difference between Harvard and Chicago and I'm expecting the same with Columbia. After reading around a bit it doesn't seem like Columbia or Chicago negotiate well, but I still need to research more into that. If between those 3, I think it'd be Harvard. The only other appealing option seems to be Penn if I could negotiate more.

Are financial aid offices helpful for individual admits trying to figure out a more personalized budget? I was going to just take out the full amount of COL loans 1L and adjust accordingly 2L and 3L, but it would be nice to not take out as much.

In that case, if Harvard's not worth it for you, then it's probably not worth it for anyone.

I would say - go to CCN if you get a full scholarship, and def consider S/Y if you happen to get one of those. But H is a great outcome at that price with those goals, I think. Congrats

[Theresa87]

Ya you seem like a good candidate for named awards at NYU, Duke, Michigan and UVA, which given a PI interest might be appealing. But if I were you I'd take Harvard and be very, very happy. Harvard is offering a pretty significant amount of money, and it's Harvard.

Wait listed at UVA and Michigan

[WinterComing]

Did you apply for the Toll PI scholarship at Penn or the AnBryce PI scholarship at NYU? You would seem like a perfect candidate for those.

[pterodactyls]

If you're planning on using LRAP, Harvard is the clear choice to me (and probably would be regardless).

Harvard's LRAP actually makes the full payment on your loans each year, including up to $30k in undergrad loans and I think $5k in bar loans. You chip in a small portion based on a sliding scale, and Harvard pays the rest. With most of the other schools, you would be relying on PSLF - they chip in a portion of your reduced income-based repayments rather than the standard amount. Meaning, you're putting off most of your loans and waiting for federal forgiveness after 10 years. If you leave public sector before year 10, you're left with a giant bill.

Way more flexibility and less risk with the Harvard plan.

[Theresa87]

Did you apply for the Toll PI scholarship at Penn or the AnBryce PI scholarship at NYU? You would seem like a perfect candidate for those.

Waiting to hear on AnBryce PI at NYU. Did not apply for Toll PI. Regrets.

[WinterComing]

Did you apply for the Toll PI scholarship at Penn or the AnBryce PI scholarship at NYU? You would seem like a perfect candidate for those.

Waiting to hear on AnBryce PI at NYU. Did not apply for Toll PI. Regrets.

If you get AnBryce, I bet most of the people above who said H would switch their vote to NYU. Otherwise, Harvard seems like a good bet at that price.

If you're planning on using LRAP, Harvard is the clear choice to me (and probably would be regardless).

With respect to the advice from the dinosaur above, one note about using Harvard's LIPP: You mentioned having an SO. If you guys get married, and he makes good money, that will count against you in terms of your LIPP payments. There are some good examples of how this affects the calculations on Harvard's website. The only LRAP that doesn't consider spousal income, to the best of my knowledge, is Chicago's.

[pterodactyls]

With respect to the advice from the dinosaur above, one note about using Harvard's LIPP: You mentioned having an SO. If you guys get married, and he makes good money, that will count against you in terms of your LIPP payments. There are some good examples of how this affects the calculations on Harvard's website. The only LRAP that doesn't consider spousal income, to the best of my knowledge, is Chicago's.

Good point, human!

[Tls2016]

If you're planning on using LRAP, Harvard is the clear choice to me (and probably would be regardless).

Harvard's LRAP actually makes the full payment on your loans each year, including up to $30k in undergrad loans and I think $5k in bar loans. You make chip in a small portion based on a sliding scale, and Harvard pays the rest. With most of the other schools, you would be relying on PSLF - they chip in a portion of your reduced income-based repayments rather than the standard amount. Meaning, you're putting off most of your loans and waiting for federal forgiveness after 10 years. If you leave public sector before year 10, you're left with a giant bill.

Way more flexibility and less risk with the Harvard plan.

Just check with Harvards LIPP experts before you assume anything. It's complicated at every school. I agree that Harvards plan is fantastic, it just it has elements you need to understand like spouse contribution and increased income to the amount Harvard contributes.
http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/lipp/pa ... tribution/

[Tls2016]

Huh? OP massively underperformed her numbers, right? Shouldn't we suggest she reapply next cycle if she can't get any of those schools to budge? I get that she wants PI, but those numbers should be pulling down a full-tuition scholly at UVA/Penn/NYU, right?

This is a good point.
OP is 173/4.0 which got lost a little in the first post.

[Theresa87]

If you're planning on using LRAP, Harvard is the clear choice to me (and probably would be regardless).

Harvard's LRAP actually makes the full payment on your loans each year, including up to $30k in undergrad loans and I think $5k in bar loans. You make chip in a small portion based on a sliding scale, and Harvard pays the rest. With most of the other schools, you would be relying on PSLF - they chip in a portion of your reduced income-based repayments rather than the standard amount. Meaning, you're putting off most of your loans and waiting for federal forgiveness after 10 years. If you leave public sector before year 10, you're left with a giant bill.

Way more flexibility and less risk with the Harvard plan.

From my understanding, all but HYS have LRAP that is tied to IBR/PSLF. The only thing that worries me is factoring in spousal income if I want to get married in the following 10 years after law school. Ideally, I would want to get married around age 30 and start having children at that age too. It's just hard to think about at this point in life when I am not ready for either.

From reading about Harvard's LRAP on their website, I will get full or 90% of loans paid by Harvard if I'm single in the 55k salary range or less (or if married and spouse making less than me). Once I get above that, more and more contribution on my part will be required.

At Chicago LRAP fully covers all salaries below 80k, which is fantastic, but it is tied to IBR/PSLF.

[Theresa87]

Huh? OP massively underperformed her numbers, right? Shouldn't we suggest she reapply next cycle if she can't get any of those schools to budge? I get that she wants PI, but those numbers should be pulling down a full-tuition scholly at UVA/Penn/NYU, right?

This is a good point.
OP is 173/4.0 which got lost a little in the first post.

First two LSATs were in the 150s and went to a no name undergrad. Best option would've been to get a huge PI scholarship, but most of those seemed tied to resume and mine is decent but not stellar. definitely going to work on that during law school

Because family can't contribute and I have no asssets to contribute, I will have to take out significant COL/fees loans no matter where I go. And even 60k in total debt feels like a lot for someone in PI. I like that Harvard's LRAP isn't tied to PSLF and that Harvard will give me more opportunities for prestigious PI. I just have don't have a good idea of the salary I'll be making the first 10 years out of Harvard. Need to do more research on those organizations I'd like to work for. But even then, I have no idea about my actual chances at these jobs in the first place. So much uncertainty...